Solar Panels - worth it?

[Pommygranite]

Currently get electricity bills of about $400-500 average a quarter and noticing solar systems down to $3k - so is it worth it and has anyone done it and think its worth it?

[Jader1973]

I don't have them so can't help but a mate of mine was a local rep for one of those "solar neighbourhood" companies so knows all about it.

I was chatting to him at the weekend. Apparently there are no longer any Government incentives, and feed in tariffs are minimal. So it all hinges on whether or not you can generate enough to mean you aren't using any electricity at all.

In my case both my wife and I work, so nobody home during the day, which is when it is generating with only minimal usage (2 fridges basically) - all our usage is in the evening/at night.

However, he told me you can now get battery storage systems - so generate during the day, and then use it at night. No idea what they cost though.

This site gives an indication of how much panels will generate - it is worth checking your bills to compare the generated amount per month with your actual usage. You'll most likely find you are using more than it generates in winter, and less in summer, hence the battery storage being a good idea.
https://lgenergy.com.au/solar-calculators/solar-sy...

If you're working it out then you need to consider that they are not 100% efficient even when new, and do drop off over time as well:
http://energyinformative.org/lifespan-solar-panels...

I did find a really good one that gave efficiencies etc so you could work out the whole lot from first principles - can't find it now though, and when I did my last model (5 years ago) it wasn't worth it even with all the kickbacks.

Your electricity provider might be able to supply a system - that is the way I was going to go, at least they'll be about in some form or another in 5 years time, unlike some of the standalone installers.

ETA: the lg site has a page that lets you work out how many panels you can get on your roof. I'd need a 4 kWh system to be getting any real benefit - my roof can only fit 2.4 max by the look of it

Edited by Jader1973 on Wednesday 23 July 11:23

[Pommygranite]

Thanks for that - very interesting.

The daytime point is very relevant - now have a baby and so wife is at home each day and so this may suit given most things can be run during day rather than night.

[WeirdNeville]

Solar water heating is way more efficient than electricity generation. I'd look at that first for cash savings.

[Pommygranite]

WeirdNeville said:

Solar water heating is way more efficient than electricity generation. I'd look at that first for cash savings.

Good idea - it's the Aircon that's killing me I reckon. Heating in winter (full reverse cycle ducted) and cooling in summer...

[Jader1973]

Pommygranite said:

Thanks for that - very interesting.

The daytime point is very relevant - now have a baby and so wife is at home each day and so this may suit given most things can be run during day rather than night.

Yeah, friends of ours do that, run everything during the day because she is home with the kids.

For hot water, apparently heat pumps are worth looking at. Figure out how old your is - electric ones last about 10 years. Unfortunately mine burst so I didn't have time to mess about and hunt down anything other than an replacement electric one

[Hasbeen]

My brother in law, an engineer has recently moved to the Wyong/Gosford area after living on a moderate property, north of Wisemans Ferry for years.

When asked why he said the main reason was to get back on the grid, & get as many miles away from solar panels, & batteries as possible, after years of generating his own power.

When we moved ashore from my yacht, my 3.5 year old daughter, who had lived on it all her life asked, "daddy will our new house have real power, or just this Mickey Mouse stuff like we have on the boat"

Out of the mouths of babes.

[papahet]

All advice I have received is that with the lack of rebates and low feed in tariff they are rarely worth getting. Those $3K systems only have a couple of panels so you need to have a look at exactly how much power they generate and how much 'credit' that will get you and how long it will take to offset the cost. Adding more panels to make more power costs more so pushes out your break even point.

You are not going to be able to run the xbox and AC off of them during the day.

We have solar hot water which is on its last legs and badly needs replacing but when it was in better condition it was good being able to have 300L of stored hot water for free! We have to use the electric booster most days now but a system in good condition should only need the booster using on the cloudiest days.

Rather than use the AC to do the heating we have a gas / fan forced heater. We bought it from a friend when they moved house, it was only 12 months old or so and designed for a house much bigger than ours so does a good job of heating the place up. It has a thermostat so turns off and on itself and it also has a remote control, timer etc. Not cheap to buy new but works well and does not appear to be expensive to run.

Other options are to look at your insulation. Aussie houses are crap at keeping heat / cold out and holding the heat / cool in.

[Pommygranite]

Cheers chaps - interesting stuff.

I'm not bothered about credits - that's a lost cause. I just want to get rid of my Synergy bill...

My neighbours just chucked a load of panels on his roof - might see how he's finding it.

[Jader1973]

papahet said:

We have solar hot water which is on its last legs and badly needs replacing.

Other options are to look at youre insulation. Aussie houses are crap at keeping heat / cold out and holding the heat / cool in.

How old is the solar hw system?

And yes, our house is dreadful - crap loft insulation, single glazed windows that don't seal properly, doors that don't seal properly, no insulation in the walls.

I dread to think how much that lot is going to cost to fix

[papahet]

Pommygranite said:

Cheers chaps - interesting stuff.

I'm not bothered about credits - that's a lost cause. I just want to get rid of my Synergy bill...

My neighbours just chucked a load of panels on his roof - might see how he's finding it.

You can either use your power as it is being generated or you can feed in to the grid and get credit on your account. I suspect that with the low feed in rate this works out to be same same if you have a house that is empty all day.

You aint going to reduce your synergy bill by much. I was chatting to a bloke at work this arvo and he reckons he only sees $20 or so off each bill with a 3KW system...he has a wife and 3 kids at primary school age so is a heavy user.

Jader1973 said:

How old is the solar hw system?

And yes, our house is dreadful - crap loft insulation, single glazed windows that don't seal properly, doors that don't seal properly, no insulation in the walls.

I dread to think how much that lot is going to cost to fix

15+ years old though I believe it is on its second tank as the original failed with the previous owner of this house when it was under warranty. The panels are not very good anymore and the tank insulation has split. The same system (or equivalent) is only $2.5K including installation and disposal of the old one.

As for the bullst build quality of aussie houses...just how it is! Quality windows, doors and insulation is bloody exxy and the 'new build package' style of house building does not include anything more than cardboard doors and a few insulation batts lobbed in the roof space. It pisses me off that we don't build houses to work with the climate here.

[Pommygranite]

WeirdNeville said:

For all they get paid, it seems tradies in WA simply don't give a fk. She'll be right!

Very, very true.

Good friends a commercial sparky and spent a few years working in the UK - couldn't believe how much better quality of work in the domestic housing sparky work there is compared to the work done here.

You only have to look at plugs positioned half way down and half way up a wall and think 'why the hell is that there where it can't get used' or the frequent tripping of circuits because I had the audacity to use the kettle AND the toaster at the same time!

[200bhp]

Has anyone ever had a double glazing quote here?

We keep talking about it as a long term option to reduce our bills and cut the noise.

The TV ads claim that shutters will do the job but that has to be B.S. based on the fact they're just glorified garage doors and we all know you can hear everything when stood in the garage with the door closed. Look at the physics of double glazing Vs shutters and it doesnt work there either.

What has driven double glazing prices low in Europe is EU and government laws which mandate their use in new builds. If the government did the same here the quantity of windows being produced for the copy and pasts new houses would have a significant effect on the pricing for everyone. However, because of the complete lack of environmental policies and the general head-burried-in-the-sand attitude of those at the top, it'll never happen here.

On the heating front we've been running our split system for heat over the last month or so, on a timer from 9AM until 10PM. I was dreading the first synergy bill but it wasn't so bad. Running it in heat mode costs about $100 a month which is similar to when it's running in cool mode.

[Hasbeen]

In my part of the country, south east Queensland, double glazing would be overkill for most.

There are perhaps a dozen nights a year when we pull the heavy drapes, & turn on the reverse cycle heat for a few hours.

There are about 20 nights, when we set the timer to heat from about 5.30 AM, but that is because the lady takes some warming up most mornings, & it is always off by 8.30.

We never require cooling at night, with the windows open, & I doubt we used the AC more than 10 times this summer.

I think you will have a hard time selling it to most of us, when we would rather have the windows open, & fresh air most of the time.

I don't recall much need for cooling or heating in Perth when I was there, but then I was a bit young, so perhaps I just didn't notice.

[Hasbeen]

WeirdNeville said:

Hasbeen said:

In my part of the country, south east Queensland, double glazing would be overkill for most.

I don't recall much need for cooling or heating in Perth when I was there, but then I was a bit young, so perhaps I just didn't notice.

It's not about you.

It's about the nation. The top floor of our house looks across a dozen roofs: All with A/C, all running the bulk of the day. Double glazing (and properly built houses) reduce the energy need across the board, for both heating and cooling. It might save the individuals wallet a bit, but the far bigger saving is in the energy demand of entire cities. Any surprise we get brownouts in Perth in the Evenings in Summer, when everyone gets home and the A/C is running full whack?

Proper building regs would mean that you're building fewer power stations in a decade, and depleting fewer resources. But it means $50k onto the price of every new build, and since everyone likes to build a new house ever 20 years, it won't happen because they'd rather absorb the costs of energy inefficiency year on year rather than in one hit.

You wouldn't be a town planner would you Neville?

I can't imagine anyone on earth other than a town planner who could possibly think we need more regulation in our lives.

[Colonial]

Hasbeen said:

You wouldn't be a town planner would you Neville?

I can't imagine anyone on earth other than a town planner who could possibly think we need more regulation in our lives.

Yeah. Imagine how st things would be if we actually thought about things and built houses properly for the climate we are in rather than as cheaply as possible.

You overwhelming sense of self entitlement and me me me attitude is astounding.

[Pommygranite]

[papahet]

200bhp said:

Has anyone ever had a double glazing quote here?

We keep talking about it as a long term option to reduce our bills and cut the noise.

The TV ads claim that shutters will do the job but that has to be B.S. based on the fact they're just glorified garage doors and we all know you can hear everything when stood in the garage with the door closed. Look at the physics of double glazing Vs shutters and it doesnt work there either.

What has driven double glazing prices low in Europe is EU and government laws which mandate their use in new builds. If the government did the same here the quantity of windows being produced for the copy and pasts new houses would have a significant effect on the pricing for everyone. However, because of the complete lack of environmental policies and the general head-burried-in-the-sand attitude of those at the top, it'll never happen here.

On the heating front we've been running our split system for heat over the last month or so, on a timer from 9AM until 10PM. I was dreading the first synergy bill but it wasn't so bad. Running it in heat mode costs about $100 a month which is similar to when it's running in cool mode.

We had to remove some trees on the front of our house that previously shaded the lounge from the afternoon sun. Obviously this caused the temperature of the lunge to jump 20 degrees.

We had roller shutters put on the lounge, it is a bay window with two 500mm windows on the side and a 2000mm-ish bit across the front.

I have to say they work really well. The blinds themselves are not just single layer metal like a garage door. They have a foam / insulated core so do block a lot of noise out. They totally block out light when they are down and made a huge difference to the temperature of the lounge room, we certainly don't need the A/C on flat out with them down. There is an inch or so space between the window and the shutter which is the key to the insulation.

I did a heap of research in to double glazing in Australia and chatted with a bloke at work that had it put in. His was a new build house and cost something like $25K but that included the massive patio doors and some internal doors.

He reckons they don't do much themselves to stop heat getting in but once the house is cool the A/C can be turned down to maintain that temperature. Same for heating. He did internal doors so he can block off areas he is not using and just heat / cool where he wants to be.

Most of the other research I did suggested double glazing is not worth it in Australia. They might take longer to heat soak but there is nothing stopping an aussie summer getting in! They can be a problem in that the house will hold the heat rather than it soaking out again in the evening. There is merit in having windows / doors that are properly sealed.

It seems that the simplest way to keep a house cool here is lots of shade...verandahs or trees all around to keep the walls shaded. Window blinds make a big difference.

House position plays a part in it, better to have the garage catching the afternoon sun rather than the lounge or master bedroom.

Roof space is not insulated here like in the UK. The insulation goes between the ceiling beams and not against the roof tiles as it won't make much difference. Venting the roof space is supposed to make a big difference when it is done correctly, you see houses with one or two whirly birds but that does nothing. You need more like half a dozen of them and mesh grills under the eaves of the house so fresh air is actually drawn in.

I have to agree that it is utter bullst that we live in one of the hottest places on earth with limited energy and water resources and houses can be built so cheaply with not a thought at all to longevity or energy efficiency. Australia should be leading the world in the sustainment industry, instead we mock the idea and only give a fk about putting money in our pocket today.

[Colonial]

Good points.

Also the lack of eaves etc on west facing facades is a major issue.

I used to live in a west facing apartment but it had a 3m wide covered balcony so it wasn't an issue. The apartment above didn't have that and on a summer day was a good 10 degrees hotter. So air con running all day when spending 5k at construction would have alleviated the problem.

[Hasbeen]

Colonial said:

Hasbeen said:

You wouldn't be a town planner would you Neville?

I can't imagine anyone on earth other than a town planner who could possibly think we need more regulation in our lives.

Yeah. Imagine how st things would be if we actually thought about things and built houses properly for the climate we are in rather than as cheaply as possible.

You overwhelming sense of self entitlement and me me me attitude is astounding.

Not quite as astounding as those who think they know it all, after a little bit of schooling & too little thinking.

I am horrified at the dreadful housing one sees in streetscapes of England, & those dreadful houses in the villages the Tour de France goes through.

We adapted quite well to our climate, with single timber wall Queenslander housing, with large verandahs. I lived in a Queenslander type house in Rabaul, New Guinea, 590 miles from the equator, with no air conditioning, & just a couple of fans, quite happily.

This was much better than the brick veneer stuff being built today. Even that is much better than UK type housing in the wrong place.

A mate of mine, brought up in Lithgow, a very cold hole, was silly enough to build a double brick home in Brisbane. Even with a 10 Ft verandah on 2 sides, & a 6Ft one on a third, it took hours of air conditioning every night to bring the heat of those bricks to something livable.

He was lucky enough to find a dill just arrived from Melbourne to sell it too, so he could build something more suitable for the climate.

I guess you missed the bit about my rarely having to use heat or cooling in my home, & just think of all those materials I did not waste in building.