Buying a car – how to lie to people and not make friends
Discussion
Due to only having one car and requiring a second, in addition to changing the main car (as per the other SUV thread) I’ve had the joy of experiencing car buying at its (nearly) most annoying due to misinformation, simple lying or just plain delusions over the quality of the sellers car.
First the SUV for the wife. Went to a main Mazda dealer in the northern suburbs of Perth to look at a CX5 that the wife has just said ‘you sort it out, if you like it I trust you, just get it’. Helpful young guy comes over and without further ado offers a test drive – excellent, easy start. Get in said CX5 and a nice car, like it but instantly feel uncomfortable with the weird floor hinged accelerator. This is similar to BMW’s of old (not sure if the current lot have this) but its strange whereby you leave your heal rested and use the ball/toes to apply the pressure. All good in a car where you’re horizontal but in an SUV and you’re well above the pedals its quite a strange, almost uncomfortable feeling. Perhaps you get used to it and its supposed to allow more comfortable driving with less leg movement required. Not convinced.
So, on we press and he asks my view and I explain that it would all be ok apart from the pedal issue and really I cant make a decision without the wife driving given its for her and I’d get hammered if I rolled home with a $35k car she doesn’t like. Out comes the first of the sales patter ‘oh you’ll get used to it’. Fair point but you generally shouldn’t have to get used to anything, it should feel right straight off. No problems that’s what hes there for.
Then he states ‘so you like it? Would you be interested in doing a deal today?’ Well er, no, as I said my wife needs to drive it. I explain I need to speak to the finance guy first to ascertain affordability, rates etc. He then, at age 21, starts to tell me that actually the right way to buy a car is the other way round:
Him: ‘What we do is, first you make a formal offer on the car, I present it to my sales manager and if he agrees, we write it up we can then go to financing’.
Me: ‘So then my offer becomes binding without any negotiation?’
Him: ‘Yes, but you write the contract out subject to finance. That’s the way we do it’.
Me: ‘well if that’s the way you do it I’ll just go somewhere else. Theres no point even discussing the car price until I can work out financing affordability, rate acceptance etc and from that point I can work out what can be done’.
Him: ‘but its subject to finance’.
Me: ‘yes, but I would get finance so then I’m accepted and bound – I don’t want to be bound on the basis you can accept me at any rate and cost you determine. Anyway, that’s how it’ll be – take it or leave it’
Him: ‘Ok, lets chat to the finance guy when back’
So, we get back to the dealer, chat to the finance guys. He’s ok but on asking his rate he states 7.95% pa using Asanda. Now earlier in the day I was looking at a different dealer and they stated for the same finance arrangement they could do 6.49%. He then explains ‘oh we could do that if you want to buy the car’. Everyone has to make a profit but this s
t annoys me. On that basis it isn’t going to happen.
So go back to the sales guy and explain that the rates are a little higher than I would like and so let me explore that further and when my wife can drive again we’ll pop in and re-drive and work it out. He then states: ‘Well tell you what, lets fill out an order form so its here waiting for you’.
Me: ‘why would I do that, I don’t know if I want to buy it’
Him: ‘Well its easier’
Me: ‘For you but not me’
Him: ‘Well yes but its easier’
At that point, I’m done. I just wanted to sit down, chat what sort of price they can do for the finance and then link that to a negotiated car price and be able to do the sums. Its not hard to sit there for 2 mins, bit of back and forth and come to agreed price. Instead they want you to propose a price in writing that you are bound to. What an annoyance. Makes it so much harder just to do a deal on mutual terms.
Next to the runaround for me. Only have one car and so I am turning to Bangernomics. Need to keep expense low as we enter one income post kids so for 6months to a year I’ll bin round in a sub $10k car.
This is where it just gets a waste of time. Why cant people explain honestly when you ask what state their car is in. I don’t expect a lot sub-$10k and expect a few marks and questionable presentation however we have:
1. The Mitsubishi 380SX 2007. Listed at $8,500 (slightly above market average) with the words (exactly) ‘Still under new car warranty until Feb 2014. Fantastic condition’.
So I turn up, slightly dusty car, oh well but you would have thought it would have been cleaned off. Instantly see the 9 inch multiple scrapes down one wing, the half bald front tyre. Chap comes out, nice enough. He proceeds to tell me ‘Its Mint, really Mint’… Oh apart from the scrape and the tyres. ‘Yeah, apart from that’. Has it got Service History?’Oh yeah always serviced’. Open log book. 3 services in last 6 years, not had one for 18 months and a good 2 years between each one. So that’s your new car warranty shot then hey. And not serviced.
It was an ok car but the lack of truth just makes you mistrust the whole car. What else is it hiding. Told him the scrape, tyre, service needed and then rego in a month is all up worth nearly $1500 in cost and that takes it to a clean dealer example without any negotiation. Bit of negotiation but not much and left it. Shame, was hoping to like it.
2. The Mitsubishi 380GT 2006 – Listed at $10,000 with low kms. Text the owner in advance what the condition was like – “really good, clean”. Any scrapes, marks? “only a slight one on the back left”.
So I turn up and instantly see the rear lense is smashed. The slight rear scrape is actually a dented rear bumper, massive foot long gouge, every panel has a 12 inch scrape and 2 doors are dented beyond repair. A good $2-3k of work. Didn’t even drive it as it was just buggered. Shame as had full history and a clean interior.
What is wrong with people? Fair enough you want people to view the car but what do you expect when the turn up and see the state of it. So many I’ve enquired about haven’t got any log book history – do people not service their cars in Perth?! ‘my mates a mechanic, he does it every 6 months but I don’t have logbook’ Is that why the Oil looks like tar and sticks the dipstick like baby st on a nappy?
So last night, in my every increasing parameter for buying a car went to see a Ford Fairmont (BA 2004) with 146k kms for $5,500. Ask the guy a few questions by text, turned up and its exactly as he described. Bunch of paperwork all in order and matching. Clean car with a couple of marks, explained where he had a few bits resprayed, what had been replaced electrics wise. Went for a drive, was actually ok, asked him what he would take, shook on $4,800 and pick it up next Thursday. So easy, honest and from what I can see good value. If the others had been straight forward I would probably have spent nearer $7-8k and awaiting pick up on Friday happy to have got something that appears honest for sub $5k and figure even if I put 30-40k kms on it I’ll get back pretty much what was paid for it.
Buying cars in Australia sucks.
First the SUV for the wife. Went to a main Mazda dealer in the northern suburbs of Perth to look at a CX5 that the wife has just said ‘you sort it out, if you like it I trust you, just get it’. Helpful young guy comes over and without further ado offers a test drive – excellent, easy start. Get in said CX5 and a nice car, like it but instantly feel uncomfortable with the weird floor hinged accelerator. This is similar to BMW’s of old (not sure if the current lot have this) but its strange whereby you leave your heal rested and use the ball/toes to apply the pressure. All good in a car where you’re horizontal but in an SUV and you’re well above the pedals its quite a strange, almost uncomfortable feeling. Perhaps you get used to it and its supposed to allow more comfortable driving with less leg movement required. Not convinced.
So, on we press and he asks my view and I explain that it would all be ok apart from the pedal issue and really I cant make a decision without the wife driving given its for her and I’d get hammered if I rolled home with a $35k car she doesn’t like. Out comes the first of the sales patter ‘oh you’ll get used to it’. Fair point but you generally shouldn’t have to get used to anything, it should feel right straight off. No problems that’s what hes there for.
Then he states ‘so you like it? Would you be interested in doing a deal today?’ Well er, no, as I said my wife needs to drive it. I explain I need to speak to the finance guy first to ascertain affordability, rates etc. He then, at age 21, starts to tell me that actually the right way to buy a car is the other way round:
Him: ‘What we do is, first you make a formal offer on the car, I present it to my sales manager and if he agrees, we write it up we can then go to financing’.
Me: ‘So then my offer becomes binding without any negotiation?’
Him: ‘Yes, but you write the contract out subject to finance. That’s the way we do it’.
Me: ‘well if that’s the way you do it I’ll just go somewhere else. Theres no point even discussing the car price until I can work out financing affordability, rate acceptance etc and from that point I can work out what can be done’.
Him: ‘but its subject to finance’.
Me: ‘yes, but I would get finance so then I’m accepted and bound – I don’t want to be bound on the basis you can accept me at any rate and cost you determine. Anyway, that’s how it’ll be – take it or leave it’
Him: ‘Ok, lets chat to the finance guy when back’
So, we get back to the dealer, chat to the finance guys. He’s ok but on asking his rate he states 7.95% pa using Asanda. Now earlier in the day I was looking at a different dealer and they stated for the same finance arrangement they could do 6.49%. He then explains ‘oh we could do that if you want to buy the car’. Everyone has to make a profit but this s
t annoys me. On that basis it isn’t going to happen.So go back to the sales guy and explain that the rates are a little higher than I would like and so let me explore that further and when my wife can drive again we’ll pop in and re-drive and work it out. He then states: ‘Well tell you what, lets fill out an order form so its here waiting for you’.
Me: ‘why would I do that, I don’t know if I want to buy it’
Him: ‘Well its easier’
Me: ‘For you but not me’
Him: ‘Well yes but its easier’
At that point, I’m done. I just wanted to sit down, chat what sort of price they can do for the finance and then link that to a negotiated car price and be able to do the sums. Its not hard to sit there for 2 mins, bit of back and forth and come to agreed price. Instead they want you to propose a price in writing that you are bound to. What an annoyance. Makes it so much harder just to do a deal on mutual terms.
Next to the runaround for me. Only have one car and so I am turning to Bangernomics. Need to keep expense low as we enter one income post kids so for 6months to a year I’ll bin round in a sub $10k car.
This is where it just gets a waste of time. Why cant people explain honestly when you ask what state their car is in. I don’t expect a lot sub-$10k and expect a few marks and questionable presentation however we have:
1. The Mitsubishi 380SX 2007. Listed at $8,500 (slightly above market average) with the words (exactly) ‘Still under new car warranty until Feb 2014. Fantastic condition’.
So I turn up, slightly dusty car, oh well but you would have thought it would have been cleaned off. Instantly see the 9 inch multiple scrapes down one wing, the half bald front tyre. Chap comes out, nice enough. He proceeds to tell me ‘Its Mint, really Mint’… Oh apart from the scrape and the tyres. ‘Yeah, apart from that’. Has it got Service History?’Oh yeah always serviced’. Open log book. 3 services in last 6 years, not had one for 18 months and a good 2 years between each one. So that’s your new car warranty shot then hey. And not serviced.
It was an ok car but the lack of truth just makes you mistrust the whole car. What else is it hiding. Told him the scrape, tyre, service needed and then rego in a month is all up worth nearly $1500 in cost and that takes it to a clean dealer example without any negotiation. Bit of negotiation but not much and left it. Shame, was hoping to like it.
2. The Mitsubishi 380GT 2006 – Listed at $10,000 with low kms. Text the owner in advance what the condition was like – “really good, clean”. Any scrapes, marks? “only a slight one on the back left”.
So I turn up and instantly see the rear lense is smashed. The slight rear scrape is actually a dented rear bumper, massive foot long gouge, every panel has a 12 inch scrape and 2 doors are dented beyond repair. A good $2-3k of work. Didn’t even drive it as it was just buggered. Shame as had full history and a clean interior.
What is wrong with people? Fair enough you want people to view the car but what do you expect when the turn up and see the state of it. So many I’ve enquired about haven’t got any log book history – do people not service their cars in Perth?! ‘my mates a mechanic, he does it every 6 months but I don’t have logbook’ Is that why the Oil looks like tar and sticks the dipstick like baby s
t on a nappy?So last night, in my every increasing parameter for buying a car went to see a Ford Fairmont (BA 2004) with 146k kms for $5,500. Ask the guy a few questions by text, turned up and its exactly as he described. Bunch of paperwork all in order and matching. Clean car with a couple of marks, explained where he had a few bits resprayed, what had been replaced electrics wise. Went for a drive, was actually ok, asked him what he would take, shook on $4,800 and pick it up next Thursday. So easy, honest and from what I can see good value. If the others had been straight forward I would probably have spent nearer $7-8k and awaiting pick up on Friday happy to have got something that appears honest for sub $5k and figure even if I put 30-40k kms on it I’ll get back pretty much what was paid for it.
Buying cars in Australia sucks.
Dealer - I'd never go there again.. or try find a different sales guy. Probably tried to pull a fast one... I've read where a few people have then entered into a contract when they didn't mean to.
Re Private seller cars - really depends on the advert (pics / writing) and sometimes, location too. There's a lot of dreamers... That's for sure.
Glad you ended up with something worthwhile though.
When I sold my series 3 AU Falcon, it was to a Scottish family and on the phone asked if it was really worth looking at as they'd seen some absolute crap described as great condition etc (damage, pissing oil etc). My car had a scrape and front bumper was showing age in forms of chips and scratches. I explained that, they came, paid near asking (came with cash!) and we were both happy parties. ($3350, 170km, sold 3-4 months ago).
Re servicing, personally depends on the type of the car. I'm in the camp where if its under 3k, my mate will do it, above and its sent to Zurich Automotives (shameless plug - my mechanic).
Re Private seller cars - really depends on the advert (pics / writing) and sometimes, location too. There's a lot of dreamers... That's for sure.
Glad you ended up with something worthwhile though.
When I sold my series 3 AU Falcon, it was to a Scottish family and on the phone asked if it was really worth looking at as they'd seen some absolute crap described as great condition etc (damage, pissing oil etc). My car had a scrape and front bumper was showing age in forms of chips and scratches. I explained that, they came, paid near asking (came with cash!) and we were both happy parties. ($3350, 170km, sold 3-4 months ago).
Re servicing, personally depends on the type of the car. I'm in the camp where if its under 3k, my mate will do it, above and its sent to Zurich Automotives (shameless plug - my mechanic).
Edited by Ten Four on Saturday 30th November 08:26
I just sold my car. Took a deposit yesterday. Painful process.
Still, got a fair price and pick up a new toy next week.
Got the new car from a dealer. Very fair price, knocked another $1500 off and deal done. Looked at an Alfa and they wouldn't give me a price until a contract was signed. ps off.
Still, got a fair price and pick up a new toy next week.
Got the new car from a dealer. Very fair price, knocked another $1500 off and deal done. Looked at an Alfa and they wouldn't give me a price until a contract was signed. p
s off. Australia's used car market is hilarious. People describe cosmetically rough cars as mint.
I used a dual fuel 2000 Falcon AU for a year as a daily commuter. Very tidy, inside and out, one owner, bought for $6500, sold 18 months and 40k km later for $5600. Maintenance? Oil & filter $60. One new belt & new belt tensioner for $45. Fuel 14.5l/100km at 60 cents/litre, so petrol equivalent about 6.8l/100km.
In Australia, I recommend the ubiquitous/common man's choice. The servicing is just so cheap...they seem to be unpopular as used cars...always confuses me, as I speak to taxi drivers who put 600k km on them and would a taxi driver choose a vehicle that would be unreliable or costly to run. No.
The Falcon/Commodore seem to have a low class image (bogan mobile), I couldn't give a crap.
I used a dual fuel 2000 Falcon AU for a year as a daily commuter. Very tidy, inside and out, one owner, bought for $6500, sold 18 months and 40k km later for $5600. Maintenance? Oil & filter $60. One new belt & new belt tensioner for $45. Fuel 14.5l/100km at 60 cents/litre, so petrol equivalent about 6.8l/100km.
In Australia, I recommend the ubiquitous/common man's choice. The servicing is just so cheap...they seem to be unpopular as used cars...always confuses me, as I speak to taxi drivers who put 600k km on them and would a taxi driver choose a vehicle that would be unreliable or costly to run. No.
The Falcon/Commodore seem to have a low class image (bogan mobile), I couldn't give a crap.
Ooh ooh, another one.
Bought my Falcon G Turbo 2yrs ago. Main Ford Dealer. $46,000 and 7 months old.
s hadn't even cleaned it when I went to pick up on handover day.
Told the sales manager that its a joke - his only response wasn't sorry, it was 'how do you think I feel, I paid $200 to our valeting department for a job they didn't do'
Seriously laughable. $46,000 and you didn't even check it had been cleaned. Useless.
I also don't believe theres no clocking here as everyone's so brainwashed into thinking it doesn't exist.
Bought my Falcon G Turbo 2yrs ago. Main Ford Dealer. $46,000 and 7 months old.
s hadn't even cleaned it when I went to pick up on handover day.Told the sales manager that its a joke - his only response wasn't sorry, it was 'how do you think I feel, I paid $200 to our valeting department for a job they didn't do'
Seriously laughable. $46,000 and you didn't even check it had been cleaned. Useless.
I also don't believe theres no clocking here as everyone's so brainwashed into thinking it doesn't exist.
I posted this up about two years ago. I ended up buying privately as I didn't want to go through the whole dealer experience again.I wrote to Alfa Australia about my experience but didn't even get a reply! My view on the Aus car dealership business is I wouldn't p*ss on it of it was on fire.
"I have recently had the most shocking experience whilst trying to purchase an Alfa Guilietta from a dealer in Sydney.
As a previous owner of a GT that was sent back to Alfa after one month of ownership I had vowed never to buy and Alfa again but after being totally underwhelmed by the Golf Gti I saw the Guilietta and went to have a closer look. I had initially overlooked the fact that the sales guys told me the cloverleaf badge meant the car was environmentally friendly (unbelievable)
I should've known that exchange was going to set the tone for the rest of my dealings with Alfa Australia. I was lied to almost weekly over a 2 month period whilst I was waiting for the vehicle to arrive. One week i would be told the car was just on a transporter from WA only to be the told the next week it’s on a transporter from the NT then VIC then WA again, presumably they forgot they lied to me about WA the first time around. The dealer principal finally agreed to meet with me and tried to tell me that my interpretation of his teams lies was because I was excited to be getting a new car - what an ar*shole.
Then when the car finally arrived I found out that no one had bothered to process my finance application despite me sending endless information to them. They only found this out on the day!
So after months of trying to buy this wonderful car and putting up with the lies and ineptitude I was left with nothing but an enormous hire car bill. The dealer principal even had the cheek to try to hold onto my $1000 deposit as long as possible and despite me offering him the opportunity to apologise he chose to do nothing.
In this day and age of the internet and social networking it was easy for me to spread the news of my experience to as many people as were interested.
I really don't know if there's anything Alfa Australia can do to win me back, I love the cars it's everything else that's just all too hard."
"I have recently had the most shocking experience whilst trying to purchase an Alfa Guilietta from a dealer in Sydney.
As a previous owner of a GT that was sent back to Alfa after one month of ownership I had vowed never to buy and Alfa again but after being totally underwhelmed by the Golf Gti I saw the Guilietta and went to have a closer look. I had initially overlooked the fact that the sales guys told me the cloverleaf badge meant the car was environmentally friendly (unbelievable)
I should've known that exchange was going to set the tone for the rest of my dealings with Alfa Australia. I was lied to almost weekly over a 2 month period whilst I was waiting for the vehicle to arrive. One week i would be told the car was just on a transporter from WA only to be the told the next week it’s on a transporter from the NT then VIC then WA again, presumably they forgot they lied to me about WA the first time around. The dealer principal finally agreed to meet with me and tried to tell me that my interpretation of his teams lies was because I was excited to be getting a new car - what an ar*shole.
Then when the car finally arrived I found out that no one had bothered to process my finance application despite me sending endless information to them. They only found this out on the day!
So after months of trying to buy this wonderful car and putting up with the lies and ineptitude I was left with nothing but an enormous hire car bill. The dealer principal even had the cheek to try to hold onto my $1000 deposit as long as possible and despite me offering him the opportunity to apologise he chose to do nothing.
In this day and age of the internet and social networking it was easy for me to spread the news of my experience to as many people as were interested.
I really don't know if there's anything Alfa Australia can do to win me back, I love the cars it's everything else that's just all too hard."
Pommygranite said:
At that point, I’m done. I just wanted to sit down, chat what sort of price they can do for the finance and then link that to a negotiated car price and be able to do the sums. Its not hard to sit there for 2 mins, bit of back and forth and come to agreed price. Instead they want you to propose a price in writing that you are bound to. What an annoyance. Makes it so much harder just to do a deal on mutual terms.
You have to realise MOST buyers aren't interested in mutual terms. They want what's best for them at any cost. They will use hours of your time, your cars and guidence, and then bugger off and ask someone else who has done nothing for their business, to do a better deal.If you were my customer the first thing I would have asked, which the salesperson did in a roundabout unskilled way, is, why do you want us to negotiate a deal if you don't feel that the vehicle is right for you? You said yourself that you shouldn't have to get used to it. That wouldn't make sense for you to do all of that even though you weren't going to buy the vehicle (their next question).
I would then ask you to propose a price and if it were acceptable, I would tell you that this is the figure you should work on for your finance quote. Whether we can do that on the day depends on heaps of factors but use it to do your sums. What can be done today might not be possible tomorrow, it's the same the world over. It might be better tomorrow or whenever you come back, but let's be conservative.
The last thing anyone wants to do is to go through all the trouble of agreeing the price,having customers use up a salespersons time, put miles and fuel on a demo (it all adds up) only for the customer to then do the ring around and tell every other dealer the price they need to get the deal, when they've done nothing to earn their business. I had a guy who said he'd buy the car at $81k, naively I worked the numbers and decided to do a skinny deal as I could do. Next thing, he's rung all the dealers in the state and someone did the deal for $80,500 - cost price. I'd asked him if he would buy that car for $81k and he'd said yes, only to get up when I convinced the dealer principle that we could and should do this deal for $500 profit on a $81k car. From now on, I ask "If I can do $x, will you buy the car?" and I will ask for a credit card deposit there and then if they say yes. Otherwise, it's just opening yourself up to being shopped.
What I think the Mazda guy was trying to do was get some commitment. Potentially the price he could do on one day is different to the next, thanks to manufacturer incentives (the same in every country, not unique to Aus), dealer incentives etc etc. He could have done a skinny deal for you, you could have rocked up a day or two later, and the bonus money has gone. The price has gone up. You wouldn't buy the car if it was more.
He was also right about 'subject to finance', ish. He could have said, will you buy the car, if we agree on a price and the finance is acceptable? That way, you would enter into a contract with "subject to satisfactory conditions of finance" or however you wanted to word it under 'special conditions'. Obviously, he didn't explain this.
If the price was acceptable, the finance was acceptable, you're buying the car, which is what you want to do, right?
The salesman has been clumsy no doubt, but I do get what they're trying to do and I don't think that's unique to Aus.
Conrod Straight said:
Pommygranite said:
At that point, I’m done. I just wanted to sit down, chat what sort of price they can do for the finance and then link that to a negotiated car price and be able to do the sums. Its not hard to sit there for 2 mins, bit of back and forth and come to agreed price. Instead they want you to propose a price in writing that you are bound to. What an annoyance. Makes it so much harder just to do a deal on mutual terms.
You have to realise MOST buyers aren't interested in mutual terms. They want what's best for them at any cost. They will use hours of your time, your cars and guidence, and then bugger off and ask someone else who has done nothing for their business, to do a better deal.If you were my customer the first thing I would have asked, which the salesperson did in a roundabout unskilled way, is, why do you want us to negotiate a deal if you don't feel that the vehicle is right for you? You said yourself that you shouldn't have to get used to it. That wouldn't make sense for you to do all of that even though you weren't going to buy the vehicle (their next question).
I would then ask you to propose a price and if it were acceptable, I would tell you that this is the figure you should work on for your finance quote. Whether we can do that on the day depends on heaps of factors but use it to do your sums. What can be done today might not be possible tomorrow, it's the same the world over. It might be better tomorrow or whenever you come back, but let's be conservative.
The last thing anyone wants to do is to go through all the trouble of agreeing the price,having customers use up a salespersons time, put miles and fuel on a demo (it all adds up) only for the customer to then do the ring around and tell every other dealer the price they need to get the deal, when they've done nothing to earn their business. I had a guy who said he'd buy the car at $81k, naively I worked the numbers and decided to do a skinny deal as I could do. Next thing, he's rung all the dealers in the state and someone did the deal for $80,500 - cost price. I'd asked him if he would buy that car for $81k and he'd said yes, only to get up when I convinced the dealer principle that we could and should do this deal for $500 profit on a $81k car. From now on, I ask "If I can do $x, will you buy the car?" and I will ask for a credit card deposit there and then if they say yes. Otherwise, it's just opening yourself up to being shopped.
What I think the Mazda guy was trying to do was get some commitment. Potentially the price he could do on one day is different to the next, thanks to manufacturer incentives (the same in every country, not unique to Aus), dealer incentives etc etc. He could have done a skinny deal for you, you could have rocked up a day or two later, and the bonus money has gone. The price has gone up. You wouldn't buy the car if it was more.
He was also right about 'subject to finance', ish. He could have said, will you buy the car, if we agree on a price and the finance is acceptable? That way, you would enter into a contract with "subject to satisfactory conditions of finance" or however you wanted to word it under 'special conditions'. Obviously, he didn't explain this.
If the price was acceptable, the finance was acceptable, you're buying the car, which is what you want to do, right?
The salesman has been clumsy no doubt, but I do get what they're trying to do and I don't think that's unique to Aus.
Its probably worth noting initially that I actually sold new cars a few years ago and so have some experience in the process, but its also worth noting that myself, and a fair few on here are nearing their mid 30's and above and have the experience of having bought and sold many many times. So its not a lack of experience in the sales mechanics that drives the view points, its the experience as a consumer and a basis of what is fair and reasonable against what is onerous and somewhat unfair that grates.
Of course we realise that most buyers aren't interested in mutual terms, just as a salesman isn't, but they way in which there is a meeting in the middle is very slanted towards the dealer. As I stated if it had been a genuine back and forth negotiation over perhaps 30 seconds a mutually agreeable point may have been made, but to be driven down a path that I had explicitly stated I don't wish to go down, well that's not going to win my business.
In my role I will spend between 3-18 months tendering and negotiating deals of between $10m-$70m in the corporate world. A slow burn game. I have to put up with being market shopped and using my price and going to the competition. Unfortunately that's life, however the basis of any good salesman is listening and understanding in order to position the offer at the point that meets with the clients requirements. Frequently car sales people don't listen and my experience is they talk on the basis that they'll talk you into their position - if only they listened more they'd be able to position their offer in a way that meets in the middle.
You stated why would I negotiate if the vehicle isn't right for me? Well I didn't state that. I stated that I wasn't convinced by the pedal arrangement - it doesn't mean if a deal isn't good enough the financial benefit outweighs the issue.
Your point about 'the last thing anyone wants to do is go through all the trouble of agreeing a price' - this is the absolute main issue - that's the cost of doing business - take time, understand and act like you want the business. Yes car sales is transactional and time is 'money' but simply put there are 6-7 Mazda dealers in Perth and if I don't buy you I don't buy the car. I understand the market shopper who might go elsewhere - well if your offer is compelling they may go elsewhere but will come back.
Its worth being clear - if he had sat down, agreed on a price subject to my finance terms then he would have been half way there. Simple. But he didn't listen.
You state the obvious about the commitment - of course he wanted commitment and I understand that. However he wanted commitment for him and was overlooking the obvious.
My gripe isn't about what he was trying to achieve. My gripe is about the way he went about it, his lack of listening, his lack of what the total picture is and his sales pitch which fits all clients in one basket.
Your view point is one of an Australian car salesman whereby offers are binding. My issue is that it is not, as a consumer, a process I like or agree with. It supposed to be used to protect all parties from backing out but its used as a leverage and a tie down and I don't believe is in the spirit of what it was designed for. By all means agree a price and contract and stick to it, but using the contract to then force the sale before all terms are considered is frankly bulls
t and on that basis it is unique to Australia. But another side of the story when Sellers can be so useless it works in your favour:
There's a road near us (Barrenjoey Rd) that people park loads of cars on for sale. One day we saw a Land Rover Discovery 3, white with black alloys up for sale. Funnily enough I'd seen the car around the neighbourhood and commented I liked the looks of it.
We drove past and I caught a glimpse the price was $22K (this was three years ago), I said to my wife it must be a mistake and is really $32K. We turned around and got the number which I called.
Met the chap, he seemed a little vague but a decent guy. Car was sound and so we shook on it, wrote a receipt and I paid a deposit.
Car had $21K finance left so I made out the cheque to them. It turned out this guy had priced the car based on what the residual value was on his finance deal.
When I handed the cheque over a day later he asked if I could 'throw in another $5K because he'd priced it way too low'
I said sorry, no and left.
Three years, 60,000km later in and we're still loving the beast:
Probably only lost a couple of $k on it too...
There's a road near us (Barrenjoey Rd) that people park loads of cars on for sale. One day we saw a Land Rover Discovery 3, white with black alloys up for sale. Funnily enough I'd seen the car around the neighbourhood and commented I liked the looks of it.
We drove past and I caught a glimpse the price was $22K (this was three years ago), I said to my wife it must be a mistake and is really $32K. We turned around and got the number which I called.
Met the chap, he seemed a little vague but a decent guy. Car was sound and so we shook on it, wrote a receipt and I paid a deposit.
Car had $21K finance left so I made out the cheque to them. It turned out this guy had priced the car based on what the residual value was on his finance deal.
When I handed the cheque over a day later he asked if I could 'throw in another $5K because he'd priced it way too low'
I said sorry, no and left.
Three years, 60,000km later in and we're still loving the beast:
Probably only lost a couple of $k on it too...
Went into the local Subaru dealer the other week, asked the salesman if the did a manual in the liberty, he said no
Looked at a few other cars on the lot that were used but nothing really interesting. Had spent the time to drag the whole family (3) of us down there.
We walked out.
Subaru clearly show a manual as being an option on the website.
Beats me how it all works.
Looked at a few other cars on the lot that were used but nothing really interesting. Had spent the time to drag the whole family (3) of us down there.
We walked out.
Subaru clearly show a manual as being an option on the website.
Beats me how it all works.
robm3 said:
But another side of the story when Sellers can be so useless it works in your favour:
There's a road near us (Barrenjoey Rd) that people park loads of cars on for sale. One day we saw a Land Rover Discovery 3, white with black alloys up for sale. Funnily enough I'd seen the car around the neighbourhood and commented I liked the looks of it.
We drove past and I caught a glimpse the price was $22K (this was three years ago), I said to my wife it must be a mistake and is really $32K. We turned around and got the number which I called.
Met the chap, he seemed a little vague but a decent guy. Car was sound and so we shook on it, wrote a receipt and I paid a deposit.
Car had $21K finance left so I made out the cheque to them. It turned out this guy had priced the car based on what the residual value was on his finance deal.
When I handed the cheque over a day later he asked if I could 'throw in another $5K because he'd priced it way too low'
I said sorry, no and left.
Three years, 60,000km later in and we're still loving the beast:
Probably only lost a couple of $k on it too...
And reality is so very different from the truth. I loosely worked with the person you brought the Disco from, but that's a good taleThere's a road near us (Barrenjoey Rd) that people park loads of cars on for sale. One day we saw a Land Rover Discovery 3, white with black alloys up for sale. Funnily enough I'd seen the car around the neighbourhood and commented I liked the looks of it.
We drove past and I caught a glimpse the price was $22K (this was three years ago), I said to my wife it must be a mistake and is really $32K. We turned around and got the number which I called.
Met the chap, he seemed a little vague but a decent guy. Car was sound and so we shook on it, wrote a receipt and I paid a deposit.
Car had $21K finance left so I made out the cheque to them. It turned out this guy had priced the car based on what the residual value was on his finance deal.
When I handed the cheque over a day later he asked if I could 'throw in another $5K because he'd priced it way too low'
I said sorry, no and left.
Three years, 60,000km later in and we're still loving the beast:
Probably only lost a couple of $k on it too...
Genks said:
Oh dear, I have just read this entire thread & can't believe the ex-pat Poms are so naïve. The car game is no different anywhere in the world......
You're back once again to come across like a tit I see. It's not naivety, its a comment on the annoyance of the experience. In fact it's not naivety when you understand what the other party is doing.
If you're going to participate in the oz forum have a bit of decency and quit with the arrogance - it's not welcome.
Genks said:
robm3 said:
But another side of the story when Sellers can be so useless it works in your favour:
There's a road near us (Barrenjoey Rd) that people park loads of cars on for sale. One day we saw a Land Rover Discovery 3, white with black alloys up for sale. Funnily enough I'd seen the car around the neighbourhood and commented I liked the looks of it.
We drove past and I caught a glimpse the price was $22K (this was three years ago), I said to my wife it must be a mistake and is really $32K. We turned around and got the number which I called.
Met the chap, he seemed a little vague but a decent guy. Car was sound and so we shook on it, wrote a receipt and I paid a deposit.
Car had $21K finance left so I made out the cheque to them. It turned out this guy had priced the car based on what the residual value was on his finance deal.
When I handed the cheque over a day later he asked if I could 'throw in another $5K because he'd priced it way too low'
I said sorry, no and left.
Three years, 60,000km later in and we're still loving the beast:
Probably only lost a couple of $k on it too...
And reality is so very different from the truth. I loosely worked with the person you brought the Disco from, but that's a good taleThere's a road near us (Barrenjoey Rd) that people park loads of cars on for sale. One day we saw a Land Rover Discovery 3, white with black alloys up for sale. Funnily enough I'd seen the car around the neighbourhood and commented I liked the looks of it.
We drove past and I caught a glimpse the price was $22K (this was three years ago), I said to my wife it must be a mistake and is really $32K. We turned around and got the number which I called.
Met the chap, he seemed a little vague but a decent guy. Car was sound and so we shook on it, wrote a receipt and I paid a deposit.
Car had $21K finance left so I made out the cheque to them. It turned out this guy had priced the car based on what the residual value was on his finance deal.
When I handed the cheque over a day later he asked if I could 'throw in another $5K because he'd priced it way too low'
I said sorry, no and left.
Three years, 60,000km later in and we're still loving the beast:
Probably only lost a couple of $k on it too...
robm3 said:
Please expand then with what you think is true, because I'm sitting looking at the finance payout papers on the car right now made out to a Mr Sam**** of Palm Beach.
He is full of crap, always has been, always will be. Right, time to tell my story.
I am selling my Golf at the moment.
Had someone inspect it not last weekend but the weekend before. Couple of days of haggling and we agreed on a price (32k). I received a $800 deposit from him, as the car was going to get serviced prior to sale, and new brake pads fitted and I couldn't get it in until this week.
Meanwhile, deposit placed on new car at a dealer, and they are happy to wait and are actually really good to deal with.
So, phone call 2 days ago. Lo and behold, he can't get finance for the last 5k of the car purchase. He has the cash for the first 27k though. Surprise surprise. Would I take less? Fully hectic mate fully sik it's OMG cash bro
Too bad the dealership has offered me a trade in figure of 31k. So, no. I won't take less. You either come up with the additional 5k, or I just trade the car in and keep your deposit.
He said he will try to get the money together, but I am certain he will turn up with less and try and screw me further down the track.
I don't need to sell to him. The only reason I haven't traded it in is because I haven't had time to drive to the dealership as yet. Now that he is realised this he has started to not be such a stereotypical idiot about the price we agreed upon.
Colonial said:
Yeah, I was born in Australia mate. No ex pat Pom here.
+1I've bought 3 cars since I came back. All from dealers.
1. Subaru Outback (10 years old). Bought the first weekend we arrived. Was cheap and had 250k miles, haggled about 10% off and it lasted 6months before being traded in.
2. Toyota Hilux (12 months old). Bought with about 10% off, and a poor trade in on the Subaru. Got the price first, and then spoke to their finance person who we took a few days with to get a deal.
3. HSV GTS (6 years old). Was on consignment. Put and offer in of about 5% below. Got finance from my bank as it was cheaper.
I reckon I've bought seven cars in the ten years I've been here, and have bought new just once. Wanted a Forester so visited a few Subaru dealers and got the 'best' price from the salesperson, who then passed me to the finance person. We talked through the numbers, but as soon as I made it clear I didn't want finance, the deal seemed to go, well, quiet. There was no push for a sale - if they couldn't lend me the cash it seemed they didn't want to sell to me.
Had a look again recently as I thought about a new Forester, and the attitude seems different - more friendly and happy to talk about the car, with price not getting a mention, even when I say I'm interested in buying - the local dealer seemed happy to be led by the buyer, which is how it should work.
My job means writing proposals for clients to buy $MM of consulting services - if I don't offer them what they want, they wont buy. And the only way I can find out what they want is to listen. Push something the client doesn't want, and not only will I not get the business, but I probably won't get invited to tender next time.
As for that first Forester, I ended up buying through Private Fleet (worth a call id you're ever thinking of buying new - beat the dealer by over $1000 on-the-road and delivered to my front door) and using a private loan which was waaaaaayyyy cheaper than the dealer's finance.
Had a look again recently as I thought about a new Forester, and the attitude seems different - more friendly and happy to talk about the car, with price not getting a mention, even when I say I'm interested in buying - the local dealer seemed happy to be led by the buyer, which is how it should work.
My job means writing proposals for clients to buy $MM of consulting services - if I don't offer them what they want, they wont buy. And the only way I can find out what they want is to listen. Push something the client doesn't want, and not only will I not get the business, but I probably won't get invited to tender next time.
As for that first Forester, I ended up buying through Private Fleet (worth a call id you're ever thinking of buying new - beat the dealer by over $1000 on-the-road and delivered to my front door) and using a private loan which was waaaaaayyyy cheaper than the dealer's finance.
I remember going to a Renault dealer in Perth looking for a Megane Cup. Took a test drive and was happy to talk figures. It needed new boots and rotors so I offered $2500k off the mid $30k's tag or they replace them before selling the car to me. I got told by the dealer principal "the car owes us $40k, how about you buy it for that?". Stunned and an amazing example of how not to sell a car that is already farkin hard to sell in Australia and has been sitting on a forecourt for 6 months!
I bought my Honda not because I really wanted a Honda, but because I had been to so many stty dealers, the first one that seemed genuine I jumped on and he got my money the same day.
As for dealer BS, well I think that is the world over. What I hate is the obligatory upselling of finance and accessories whether you like it or not.
I bought my Honda not because I really wanted a Honda, but because I had been to so many s
tty dealers, the first one that seemed genuine I jumped on and he got my money the same day.As for dealer BS, well I think that is the world over. What I hate is the obligatory upselling of finance and accessories whether you like it or not.
Gassing Station | Australia | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff