WA charges 457 Visa Holders $4k a year to school their kid
Discussion
There is an interesting thread over on pomsinoz on this subject.
The OP there has stated that he thinks it's unfair that his family will have to shell out $20k per year to send his kinds to school. A couple of posts further on in the thread he says they're only going to stay in the country for 4 years. In their case in seems completely fair to me that the country shouldn't have to pay for the education of children who will contribute nothing to the nation's pocket.
Bloody 457 Visa holders.... send all of them home
The OP there has stated that he thinks it's unfair that his family will have to shell out $20k per year to send his kinds to school. A couple of posts further on in the thread he says they're only going to stay in the country for 4 years. In their case in seems completely fair to me that the country shouldn't have to pay for the education of children who will contribute nothing to the nation's pocket.
Bloody 457 Visa holders.... send all of them home
With every week I feel that sticking out for a PR Visa up-front was the right thing to do. I really only did it so that I could come here without a job and do literally anything if we ran short of cash. However, in the end I got a job sorted before I left the UK and luckily things have worked out well for us.
WeirdNeville said:
Does it though? Many 457 workers use it as a stepping stone to a life in Australia. .
But they shouldn't. It is supposed to be a step up from a holiday visa. I know it IS used like that.
If people wanted to come here to stay, they probably shouldn't be using a temp visa with minimal rights.
Harsh for those it impacts on, but I think the visa is being changed to what it was supposed to be.
WeirdNeville said:
Does it though? Many 457 workers use it as a stepping stone to a life in Australia. If it will cost $4k per head of child, then they either won't come, or they won't stay. They won't be able to afford to.
Making people feel excluded is a fantastic way of encouraging them to do a cash grab on your economy. Why re-invest anything here when you get no benefit? As it is, Most 457 workers get no Medicare benefit, have no recourse to public funds in terms of assistance with child care, cannot buy homes... Where is the burden exactly? We're now in a position where we need to save as hard as we can because it looks like we'll be going home in a few years.
Having come here with high hopes and an open mind, I feel it's another door slammed in our face to be honest. 3/4s of the jobs I am capable of, I am ineligible to apply for as I am on a 457 and it's PR or citizen only. And now it will cost us $4k to school our child in what are sub standard schools.
If the government hates 457 workers so much, it should simply close the scheme, or have meaningful assessments to ensure that those who get jobs really are fulfilling roles Aussies cannot do. I agree they should not be "stealing aussie jobs" - but that's the Federal governments issue if they are. They should not be granting 457's in areas where there is not an urgent skills shortage.
My Mrs came here to work on water supply. Her office consists of a Singaporean Aussie (boss), 2 Saffers, an American, a Canadian, 2 Brits and an Italian. You cannot get the training or skills to do that job in Australia. Even if you could, it would be ten years in the field to hone them to the level required. What they do means that huge mining projects can go ahead. Without them, mines would not be viable because they would either have no water to process their minerals, or else they would pump the surrounding area dry and devastate the surrounding environment.
So, we have a mining based economy which has failed to train and prepare it's workforce to mine. Just like they've failed in internet provision, schools, universities, in keeping the intelligent hard working aussies in the country....
With 5.6% unemployment, about the lowest sustainable level in developed economies, and universally high wages what is the problem exactly? Aussies upset that the plum jobs go to foreigners? Those plum jobs take ten years to train for, and Australia hasn't invested in the facilities to train it's own people to do them.
But like most things in Australia, the sentiment appears to be "I'm all right Jack, f
k off back to where you came from if you don't like it".
Sorry, bit of a rant there. What started as an open arms welcome to this country is suddenly feeling a bit like a slap and shut up....
Playing devils advocate I hope that, given we know each other personally, my points below are merely to add to the discussion.Making people feel excluded is a fantastic way of encouraging them to do a cash grab on your economy. Why re-invest anything here when you get no benefit? As it is, Most 457 workers get no Medicare benefit, have no recourse to public funds in terms of assistance with child care, cannot buy homes... Where is the burden exactly? We're now in a position where we need to save as hard as we can because it looks like we'll be going home in a few years.
Having come here with high hopes and an open mind, I feel it's another door slammed in our face to be honest. 3/4s of the jobs I am capable of, I am ineligible to apply for as I am on a 457 and it's PR or citizen only. And now it will cost us $4k to school our child in what are sub standard schools.
If the government hates 457 workers so much, it should simply close the scheme, or have meaningful assessments to ensure that those who get jobs really are fulfilling roles Aussies cannot do. I agree they should not be "stealing aussie jobs" - but that's the Federal governments issue if they are. They should not be granting 457's in areas where there is not an urgent skills shortage.
My Mrs came here to work on water supply. Her office consists of a Singaporean Aussie (boss), 2 Saffers, an American, a Canadian, 2 Brits and an Italian. You cannot get the training or skills to do that job in Australia. Even if you could, it would be ten years in the field to hone them to the level required. What they do means that huge mining projects can go ahead. Without them, mines would not be viable because they would either have no water to process their minerals, or else they would pump the surrounding area dry and devastate the surrounding environment.
So, we have a mining based economy which has failed to train and prepare it's workforce to mine. Just like they've failed in internet provision, schools, universities, in keeping the intelligent hard working aussies in the country....
With 5.6% unemployment, about the lowest sustainable level in developed economies, and universally high wages what is the problem exactly? Aussies upset that the plum jobs go to foreigners? Those plum jobs take ten years to train for, and Australia hasn't invested in the facilities to train it's own people to do them.
But like most things in Australia, the sentiment appears to be "I'm all right Jack, f
k off back to where you came from if you don't like it".Sorry, bit of a rant there. What started as an open arms welcome to this country is suddenly feeling a bit like a slap and shut up....
A 457 Visa is by its very nature a temporary arrangement. To make it more obvious its not a Permanent Resident Visa. The origins were to assist Australia in filling temporary roles that are needed at that time to enhance the production of the country. For those roles that are seen as foundation roles to assist in the 'building' of the country there is Permanent Resident status. Therefore a 457 Visa is objectively regarded as a visa that enables the inflow of workers to meet the demand at that time and in return they 'get the benefit of living in Australia'. Once the need ends then the visa ends and the person departs. If their skill set/occupation moves to a need to be made permanent then Permanent Residency becomes the option. In summary a 457 Visa is and never was outlined as a permanent solution to remain in Australia and therefore Australia isnt prepared to fund the benefits of such for an individual to then depart and take those benefits to an alternative location.
457's a predominantly given to those skills sets that in return would be well paid. Day to day I deal with a lot of workforces who have 457 employees and their remuneration is generally good with very few on what may seen as an automatic benefits receipt position. Also contrary to your comment WN many more 457's leave than stay for PR and many more come here on a temporary basis (think contract Oil, Gas and Exploration). Put these together and you have individuals who tend to a)be happy to pay for their childrens schooling in private schools as they are used to it (which circumvents this auto $4k charge) and b)they are used to transient living and understand benefits are not automatically given.
Its worth noting that if you became PR then this is an irrelevant argument for yourself - you wont have to pay.
So Objectively you could say that the aim of the 457 is to create work for individuals and that is their benefit as opposed to the subjective view that on top of the benefit of their employment they should receive personal assistance.
My questions to you WN (I know your name but will keep the profile to this forum
) are:1. Have the terms of your 457 changed since you arrived in terms of what you know you would receive, what you are able to do work wise and what benefits can be received? In other words did you know you couldnt work, did you know you couldnt get benefits and did you know it was only temporary?
2. If point 1 is no, therefore does that mean that you personally felt you could arrive and 'find a way' in and your expectation on this hasnt been met due to it not being as easy as you thought?
Its worth pondering that for above average incomes (and I may be presuming incorrectly that your wife being extremely well qualified fits this bill) that most persons would pay anyway for private schooling and by virtue of this this ruling becomes irrelevant - i.e you would probably have paid anyway and all they've done is force your hand into this. Private schooling here is a lot more prevalent than the UK and is not the upper class domain as per the UK. Also upto about 12 yrs its not that much more than $4k.
What could be inferred is that, in light of the 457 changes that the Government thinks they are over '457'd' and as such need to increase natural attrition rates and this helps force that even further. If someone isnt willing to pay $4k or cant pay then by that calculation they dont earn enough and their job could be filled by an aussie (i.e inferring they are lesser skilled ergo, lesser income) and if they're not willing to pay then they are a benefits drain and as such should they stay?...
Personally, I approve of a strong stance on benefits drain control. Its a position many ex-poms wish the UK had taken and in its truest form, unfortunately if you are not a perm.resident/citizen of Australia then why should you benefit for the long term but only provide for the short term - this is the same the world round and a source of many countries issues is that they dont control this.
If you arrived and the rules have changed to your detriment with regards to work and benefits on the main then you have my sympathies.
Weirdo, appreciate you keep saying you're a 'government worker' but have you considered just getting a job. My Bro in Law moved to Melbourne 7/8 years ago after 16 years in UK tax and was in the same position. He got another job whilst he waited for PR so that he had some cash, didn't have time to sit around over-thinking things and most importantly so that he had a reference when he went for a 'proper job' which of course he got.
I've moved internationally a couple of times. It is always difficult as there's only so much research you can do. We were never desperate to come here but took the opportunity for what it was and said that after two years we'd decide on PR or home, and then again after five for citizenship or home if we were still here. It helps to close stuff out like that so that you're not constantly trying to make sense of stuff that is largely out of your control.
You seem to have a lot open which must be driving you nuts.
I've moved internationally a couple of times. It is always difficult as there's only so much research you can do. We were never desperate to come here but took the opportunity for what it was and said that after two years we'd decide on PR or home, and then again after five for citizenship or home if we were still here. It helps to close stuff out like that so that you're not constantly trying to make sense of stuff that is largely out of your control.
You seem to have a lot open which must be driving you nuts.
WeirdNeville said:
You make good points, and I can see it from the Aussie resident side too.
I would say it's 50/50 perhaps the readjustment between expectation and reality, and the situation being changed beyond our control.
I don't think I see the 457 process in quite the same light as you: It's there to get specific skills into the country quickly. It's the skill that is vital, not the person. PR is about proving yourself the kind of person who is unlikely to be a burden on the state over their lifetime. 457 is about being a benefit in the here and now - which means that there's a good likely hood you'll continue to be of benefit if you stay.
To answer your points:
1) Yes, the $4k fees is a retrospective change, in that it affects us now but was not on the cards when we moved over. I feel that is patently unfair, because it's a big factor in the decision making process: "Will my child be eligible to be educated?". It's actually not so much of an issue for us right now - my son is 3 years off school age so by that time we'll actually be having to either get PR or leave anyway. It is the principle. My wife has a couple of colleagues with 2 school age children. They have been hit with an additional $8k bill with little notice, and this is on top of $500/mo medical insurance as they receive no Medicare assistance. All in all the numbers are failing to stack up and they may well leave.
2) The 457 process was used by my Mrs's company as a quick way to get people to where the skills are needed - We were 3 months from job acceptance to the flight out. Their promise was that after 1 year they would fund the PR process for the employee and their family. Within a couple of months of arrival they changed their policy on this and so we will now not be supported through the PR process.
3) We did our research as best we could, and the decision fell to "We'd kick ourselves if we didn't try it, let's give it a go" rather than "Wahey, we're coining it!" Our household income now is the same as it was in the UK, since the slight slip of the Aussie dollar. The difference is that I'm home and looking after the child, which is ace and I'm very glad of the opportunity. But the finances only start to really work in our favor if I'm working too. Moving to Australia has not been a long held dream for us - but we like to try things out and grab opportunities when they arise.
Which brings me to:
4) The nightmare of trying to get work on a Spousal 457 Visa. As I said, I'm a 'government worker' for want of a better term, and we had not fully appreciated how closed those jobs are for those without PR. Of my wifes colleagues, most of whom have been here around 2 years now, only one has a partner who is working, and that was only after the company put them through the last of the funded PR positions. That's a teacher, a copper and a nurse who are not working. I'll admit that's as much of a gripe about the company as the nation, but it seems contrary to let those skilled people go to waste at the same time as "needing the skills".
In short, it's looking very much more like we need to fund ourselves through the PR process or else go home. Then we can really start to sponge properly! We'll get the 50% rebate on child care, free schooling, I'll actually be able to steal an Aussie job, and we might even be able to buy a house at some point to put a bit of further pressure on the housing market out here.
We'll be taking it up with the company too, since they went back on a condition of employment and now this additional financial pressure means they really need to either support their staff properly or lose them.
From an Australia wide perspective? Well, the comments on the Australian are awash with people in remote areas who are worried this means that their businesses will fail to attract the people it needs. As much as contractors have a reputation for coming, earning, and leaving, that's not the case for many on a 457/. In any rate people doing that kind of work in the short term are unlikely to bring children with them. I think this is an underhand cash grab on a group without a vote, and who are perceived as not mattering (or even actively disliked) by the voting population.
Dunno, perhaps it's just the first time I've been in the position of the hated economic migrant, and that's what grates.... It is funny how much those with PR and other more settled immigrants seem to hate those on 457's though! It's like they feel you cheated the system somehow!
I'm going to disagree quite strongly on the difference between PR and 457! I came over on PR and its a bloody ball ache, costly and took ages. My occupation was on the wanted list. If it wasnt I wasnt getting in despite having family sponsorship for points and being sub aged 30. Also I had to undertake further qualifications in my profession to meet the education requirements which then to be assessed prior to main assessment. So overall it took 2 years of study, 9 months of process and probably $6k in costs from memory. I would say it's 50/50 perhaps the readjustment between expectation and reality, and the situation being changed beyond our control.
I don't think I see the 457 process in quite the same light as you: It's there to get specific skills into the country quickly. It's the skill that is vital, not the person. PR is about proving yourself the kind of person who is unlikely to be a burden on the state over their lifetime. 457 is about being a benefit in the here and now - which means that there's a good likely hood you'll continue to be of benefit if you stay.
To answer your points:
1) Yes, the $4k fees is a retrospective change, in that it affects us now but was not on the cards when we moved over. I feel that is patently unfair, because it's a big factor in the decision making process: "Will my child be eligible to be educated?". It's actually not so much of an issue for us right now - my son is 3 years off school age so by that time we'll actually be having to either get PR or leave anyway. It is the principle. My wife has a couple of colleagues with 2 school age children. They have been hit with an additional $8k bill with little notice, and this is on top of $500/mo medical insurance as they receive no Medicare assistance. All in all the numbers are failing to stack up and they may well leave.
2) The 457 process was used by my Mrs's company as a quick way to get people to where the skills are needed - We were 3 months from job acceptance to the flight out. Their promise was that after 1 year they would fund the PR process for the employee and their family. Within a couple of months of arrival they changed their policy on this and so we will now not be supported through the PR process.
3) We did our research as best we could, and the decision fell to "We'd kick ourselves if we didn't try it, let's give it a go" rather than "Wahey, we're coining it!" Our household income now is the same as it was in the UK, since the slight slip of the Aussie dollar. The difference is that I'm home and looking after the child, which is ace and I'm very glad of the opportunity. But the finances only start to really work in our favor if I'm working too. Moving to Australia has not been a long held dream for us - but we like to try things out and grab opportunities when they arise.
Which brings me to:
4) The nightmare of trying to get work on a Spousal 457 Visa. As I said, I'm a 'government worker' for want of a better term, and we had not fully appreciated how closed those jobs are for those without PR. Of my wifes colleagues, most of whom have been here around 2 years now, only one has a partner who is working, and that was only after the company put them through the last of the funded PR positions. That's a teacher, a copper and a nurse who are not working. I'll admit that's as much of a gripe about the company as the nation, but it seems contrary to let those skilled people go to waste at the same time as "needing the skills".
In short, it's looking very much more like we need to fund ourselves through the PR process or else go home. Then we can really start to sponge properly! We'll get the 50% rebate on child care, free schooling, I'll actually be able to steal an Aussie job, and we might even be able to buy a house at some point to put a bit of further pressure on the housing market out here.
We'll be taking it up with the company too, since they went back on a condition of employment and now this additional financial pressure means they really need to either support their staff properly or lose them.
From an Australia wide perspective? Well, the comments on the Australian are awash with people in remote areas who are worried this means that their businesses will fail to attract the people it needs. As much as contractors have a reputation for coming, earning, and leaving, that's not the case for many on a 457/. In any rate people doing that kind of work in the short term are unlikely to bring children with them. I think this is an underhand cash grab on a group without a vote, and who are perceived as not mattering (or even actively disliked) by the voting population.
Dunno, perhaps it's just the first time I've been in the position of the hated economic migrant, and that's what grates.... It is funny how much those with PR and other more settled immigrants seem to hate those on 457's though! It's like they feel you cheated the system somehow!
The PR list changes each year so it is definitely occupation based (mine isnt on the list now so I couldnt get in at the moment)together with the personality criteria with the added remit of 'what can you offer'
457 is employer sponsored so enables quick movement of personnel.
To your above point, if a $4k a year cost is a deciding factor in staying or not I would say that its an issue but is it critical? Would I leave Australia if I got a $7k pay cut ($4k after tax...)? Hmm not sure about that. Also are they leaving out things like guaranteed super contributions paid (9% of OTE) in addition to no IHT and things like that.
With regards to Teacher and Nurse not working, surely 457 opportunities are available to them? they are on both the 457 and PR list.
Personally I would try and gear up and get PR whilst here (can your wife?) and maintain your status - much cheaper in the long run and probably lest stressful.
It does seem as if your wifes employer stuffed you and the Government announcement on top is the cherry...
WeirdNeville said:
My main option is getting licenced as an investigator, however this costs money that we could put towards PR ($1,500 course). Whilst all the agencies say they have lots of work, organising freelancing around $100 a day scarce child care and potentially laying out a lot only to find the work isn't there is a fairly big risk to us financially. I can't really afford to lay out sums up front for child care unless I'm working, and I can't work unless the child is in care! As it is, my wife will have to use holiday to look after him while I do the 2 week course. All for a Cert IV in Investigation when I've got a Detectives certificate from New Scotland Yard and 10 years experience!
Do I do the course and get licenced, or do I go for PR? Or do I just go and sell cars or something?
I'm sure I will get work, one way or another.
Sounds like you should be looking at work in child care! Do I do the course and get licenced, or do I go for PR? Or do I just go and sell cars or something?
I'm sure I will get work, one way or another.
hidetheelephants said:
WeirdNeville said:
My main option is getting licenced as an investigator, however this costs money that we could put towards PR ($1,500 course). Whilst all the agencies say they have lots of work, organising freelancing around $100 a day scarce child care and potentially laying out a lot only to find the work isn't there is a fairly big risk to us financially. I can't really afford to lay out sums up front for child care unless I'm working, and I can't work unless the child is in care! As it is, my wife will have to use holiday to look after him while I do the 2 week course. All for a Cert IV in Investigation when I've got a Detectives certificate from New Scotland Yard and 10 years experience!
Do I do the course and get licenced, or do I go for PR? Or do I just go and sell cars or something?
I'm sure I will get work, one way or another.
Sounds like you should be looking at work in child care! Do I do the course and get licenced, or do I go for PR? Or do I just go and sell cars or something?
I'm sure I will get work, one way or another.
Today children we're going introduce you to Hidetheelephant before our resident Deviant takes over prior to Toomuchbeer serving lunch but be careful not to get Custardtart all over your face. Of course you'll have Bibbs to protect you.
What a line up...
Pommygranite said:
Yeah - 'Weird Nevilles Child Care' sounds like a winner to me!
Today children we're going introduce you to Hidetheelephant before our resident Deviant takes over prior to Toomuchbeer serving lunch but be careful not to get Custardtart all over your face. Of course you'll have Bibbs to protect you.
What a line up...
Would love to join in, but the Judge said I'm not allowed within 100m of children.Today children we're going introduce you to Hidetheelephant before our resident Deviant takes over prior to Toomuchbeer serving lunch but be careful not to get Custardtart all over your face. Of course you'll have Bibbs to protect you.
What a line up...
What is wrong with you people?>
Get yourself a decent suntan, fly to Indonesia, hop one of their tourist boats to Christmas Island, & Bobs your uncle.
We'll give you a house, furniture including a nice big TV, schooling for you & your kids, plus 10 years keep. We'll even try to teach you to speak English, proper like if you'll let us, although that may be hard. What the hell are you up to trying to do the right thing? Are you a fool or something.
Still one thing in passing, I could go to the UK to work, UK born grandparents, but my kids or their kids could not. At the same time, the UK is filling up with the riffraff of the EU. So count your lucky stars you are in a reasonable position.
You could also explain how you became so naive as to expect any sense in laws passed down from a parliament run under the Westminster system? That kind of foolishness alone is probably reason enough to refuse you residency.
Get yourself a decent suntan, fly to Indonesia, hop one of their tourist boats to Christmas Island, & Bobs your uncle.
We'll give you a house, furniture including a nice big TV, schooling for you & your kids, plus 10 years keep. We'll even try to teach you to speak English, proper like if you'll let us, although that may be hard. What the hell are you up to trying to do the right thing? Are you a fool or something.
Still one thing in passing, I could go to the UK to work, UK born grandparents, but my kids or their kids could not. At the same time, the UK is filling up with the riffraff of the EU. So count your lucky stars you are in a reasonable position.
You could also explain how you became so naive as to expect any sense in laws passed down from a parliament run under the Westminster system? That kind of foolishness alone is probably reason enough to refuse you residency.
Edited by Hasbeen on Tuesday 20th August 06:10
WN,
We are in somewhat the same boat as you - came over here nearly 3 years ago on a 457 visa - disillusioned with firstly losing LAFHA and then last July being told that the rules had changed because we are just over 50 we have to be with our 457 sponsor for 4 years now instead of the 2 years we were told at the interview - fortunately my company are great and waiting till next year to sponsor us - unless they change the rules again that is !! I will have spent over $150k on 4 year's rent by the time I get my PR - If you had told me that in my interview in Glasgow - I would have seriously had to think about it !! 10 of us came over from the UK nearly 3 years ago and we are the only couple that are still on a 457 as the rest have been Sponsored for PR. But hey ho - we are enjoying the lifestyle and determined to see it out !!
We are in somewhat the same boat as you - came over here nearly 3 years ago on a 457 visa - disillusioned with firstly losing LAFHA and then last July being told that the rules had changed because we are just over 50 we have to be with our 457 sponsor for 4 years now instead of the 2 years we were told at the interview - fortunately my company are great and waiting till next year to sponsor us - unless they change the rules again that is !! I will have spent over $150k on 4 year's rent by the time I get my PR - If you had told me that in my interview in Glasgow - I would have seriously had to think about it !! 10 of us came over from the UK nearly 3 years ago and we are the only couple that are still on a 457 as the rest have been Sponsored for PR. But hey ho - we are enjoying the lifestyle and determined to see it out !!
UNICEF not happy: http://www.watoday.com.au/wa-news/unicef-attacks-p...
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