Falcon v Commodore - reason why?
Discussion
I get the whole Ford v Holden rivalry and although you dont see it too much and in a few years I am sure it will become even less relevant in the next few years as the brands reduce market share further, but one thing I'm not quite sure of is why there seems to be so many more current model Commodores on the roads over Falcons.
I am lucky enough to have a very nice Falcon G6T which having run/driven very decent european cars when in the UK is really rather good in comparison, so dynamically not a pile of crap, but it seems to be outsold by the Commodore in vast numbers. I have read reports that the Commodore is the better marketed vehicle but the Falcon is the better engined - i'm not sure if this is true but for vehicles that are in the same class, with the same cost and spec along with the same looks (in a different way if that makes any sense) I am not sure why its so differently reflected on the road.
The interiors of both are decent, they both look as modern as each other, I am sure they drive similarly to the average joe and there is no brand kudos of one over the other.
Is it because Falcons are taxis and so the aussie view is they are a bit mainstream? Are Commodores more appealing?
I am lucky enough to have a very nice Falcon G6T which having run/driven very decent european cars when in the UK is really rather good in comparison, so dynamically not a pile of crap, but it seems to be outsold by the Commodore in vast numbers. I have read reports that the Commodore is the better marketed vehicle but the Falcon is the better engined - i'm not sure if this is true but for vehicles that are in the same class, with the same cost and spec along with the same looks (in a different way if that makes any sense) I am not sure why its so differently reflected on the road.
The interiors of both are decent, they both look as modern as each other, I am sure they drive similarly to the average joe and there is no brand kudos of one over the other.
Is it because Falcons are taxis and so the aussie view is they are a bit mainstream? Are Commodores more appealing?
It was always government & company purchases that drove the sales of Commodore & Falcon, & the General did the best fleet marketing. I think they had more margin in the cars, & could give bigger discounts.
It is a pity the market is turning to smaller cars, these two are the best vehicles for most company work. We always bought ex government Commodores, with about 35,000Km, for less than $20.000, used them for 60,000Km, & sold them for little depreciation, & usually trouble free operation.
I agree they are the equal of most European large cars, as good to drive, quick, & a damn site tougher. It's a pity the high dollar has shut down much of the export market, particularly the US cop car market.
It is a pity the market is turning to smaller cars, these two are the best vehicles for most company work. We always bought ex government Commodores, with about 35,000Km, for less than $20.000, used them for 60,000Km, & sold them for little depreciation, & usually trouble free operation.
I agree they are the equal of most European large cars, as good to drive, quick, & a damn site tougher. It's a pity the high dollar has shut down much of the export market, particularly the US cop car market.
Marketing.
Holden are seen as more Australian.
Both are great cars, both are in trouble sales wise.
As a European residing happily in Australia, I notice that there is both a strong pro/anti local car sentiment. I understand the pro side, but the anti side confuses me a little. It seems based more on perceptions rather than reality. I drive a 2.0l Ecoboost Falcon and it is an excellent family car. My three kids are very comfortable in the back, my Euro viewpoint sees the car as a very refined & spacious/fairly powerful/fairly economical rear wheel drive car. Others see it as a gas guzzling relic that can't get around corners! Rear wheel drive is dangerous you know!
The anti group also believe that the Aussie car industry is uniquely supported by the Aussie government.
Hey, maybe I'm just old fashioned, I like sedans/saloons.
Holden are seen as more Australian.
Both are great cars, both are in trouble sales wise.
As a European residing happily in Australia, I notice that there is both a strong pro/anti local car sentiment. I understand the pro side, but the anti side confuses me a little. It seems based more on perceptions rather than reality. I drive a 2.0l Ecoboost Falcon and it is an excellent family car. My three kids are very comfortable in the back, my Euro viewpoint sees the car as a very refined & spacious/fairly powerful/fairly economical rear wheel drive car. Others see it as a gas guzzling relic that can't get around corners! Rear wheel drive is dangerous you know!
The anti group also believe that the Aussie car industry is uniquely supported by the Aussie government.
Hey, maybe I'm just old fashioned, I like sedans/saloons.
As a trade insider I'll tell you. They are equally atrocious. Forget perceived build quality they are built to a budget and flogged to the public on jingoistic fervour. The reason they have dropped sales is that the Bogan wants a Prestige car now so brands like VAG and the other Germans charge a fortune for base models tapping into this "euro" faux prestige. Good riddance I say. They are both s
t cars.
t cars. SkinnyBoy said:
As a trade insider I'll tell you. They are equally atrocious. Forget perceived build quality they are built to a budget and flogged to the public on jingoistic fervour. The reason they have dropped sales is that the Bogan wants a Prestige car now so brands like VAG and the other Germans charge a fortune for base models tapping into this "euro" faux prestige. Good riddance I say. They are both st cars.
Every car is built to a budget. Not much of an insider tip, that. At least they haven't made the ultimate, primarily budget driven, decision....and switched to fwd!t cars. Jingoism? Where? Head to Japan for that. Look at Japanese auto industry subsidies. Obscene. Still, keeps the country (just about) ticking over.
I still don't understand some Australians irrational hatred of their local cars.
I'm not all pro Ford but I'm very impressed by my G6E Turbo but I think that might be predominantly because of the engine. It must be said that it's handling is not far off that of an E60 5 series, it's equipment levels are decent (full leather, climate, awesome stereo, Bluetooth, reverse camera/sensors etc) and cost $43k at 7 months old with 7000 k's on it - nothing comes close at that price and is the equivalent 5 series (550?) really worth 3-4 times as much? I'm not convinced.
The downers are some trim isn't above average, ride quality is average (it's on 19's) but it doesn't rattle or squeak.
Is it a pile of ste? No not at all. Is it fast? fk yeah. Is it better than a 5 series? No but it's not $100,000 off.
I'm presuming an SSV Commodore isn't far off.
Interestingly a few 40-50 yr old Aussies have been in it, they who are used to BA taxis and VY Commodores and comment how nice it is and they didn't expect a Ford to be that nice.
I feel lucky to have it.
The downers are some trim isn't above average, ride quality is average (it's on 19's) but it doesn't rattle or squeak.
Is it a pile of s
te? No not at all. Is it fast? fk yeah. Is it better than a 5 series? No but it's not $100,000 off.I'm presuming an SSV Commodore isn't far off.
Interestingly a few 40-50 yr old Aussies have been in it, they who are used to BA taxis and VY Commodores and comment how nice it is and they didn't expect a Ford to be that nice.
I feel lucky to have it.
I like precision. I have worked on both cars for over 10 years. They are poorly built. It personifies the "that will do" mentality that is prevalent here in Oz. why should my tax dollars go to private companies to shore up their ridiculous business model. When the GFC started hitting the bottom line a few years back Mark Reuss couldn't get on a plane back to yank land quick enough. The sooner they die the sooner this country will get with the program.
Pommygranite said:
I'm not all pro Ford but I'm very impressed by my G6E Turbo but I think that might be predominantly because of the engine. It must be said that it's handling is not far off that of an E60 5 series, it's equipment levels are decent (full leather, climate, awesome stereo, Bluetooth, reverse camera/sensors etc) and cost $43k at 7 months old with 7000 k's on it - nothing comes close at that price and is the equivalent 5 series (550?) really worth 3-4 times as much? I'm not convinced.
The 5 series is vastly superior in my opinion, just the design and interior alone. And still one of the best chassis in any car. It's cheap muscle, but equivalent cars in the States are cheaper and nicer inside too.Your argument on price is also tenuous. Is a Bentley worth 5x a BMW 550? Is a 911 worth 5x an STI?
I'll give one example of cheapness - the lack of lining on the boot door. Just exposed metal, looks nasty and cheap. ALso the centre console is pretty horrible. The colour screens may be good, but the cheaper LCD ones look terrible.
thehawk said:
Pommygranite said:
I'm not all pro Ford but I'm very impressed by my G6E Turbo but I think that might be predominantly because of the engine. It must be said that it's handling is not far off that of an E60 5 series, it's equipment levels are decent (full leather, climate, awesome stereo, Bluetooth, reverse camera/sensors etc) and cost $43k at 7 months old with 7000 k's on it - nothing comes close at that price and is the equivalent 5 series (550?) really worth 3-4 times as much? I'm not convinced.
The 5 series is vastly superior in my opinion, just the design and interior alone. And still one of the best chassis in any car. It's cheap muscle, but equivalent cars in the States are cheaper and nicer inside too.Your argument on price is also tenuous. Is a Bentley worth 5x a BMW 550? Is a 911 worth 5x an STI?
I'll give one example of cheapness - the lack of lining on the boot door. Just exposed metal, looks nasty and cheap. ALso the centre console is pretty horrible. The colour screens may be good, but the cheaper LCD ones look terrible.
The 5 series is also cheaper in the US.
I like both the Commodore and the Falcon, I'm a fan of any reliable, affordable, balanced rear wheel drive car. They do not have the perceived build quality of a BMW/Audi/Mercedes, but they are half the price...at least.
I think it's also down to HSV being a 25 year old brand now, where FPV are still fairly new.
So the standard Holdens have had a halo brand for a while.
It'll change with Nissan and Merc entering the V8s next year too.
I'd still take one over a european car. Nothing quite so over reated as a German nmade car in my opinion.
Yeah the top end stuff is great. M5s and AMGs are awesome, but a 316i or a Golf? Nah, not for me thanks.
The Brits complain that TVR is dead and Lotus suffering. They complain that Jag is not Indian. When the Aussies protect their auto industry, they are slated for it. Weird.
So the standard Holdens have had a halo brand for a while.
It'll change with Nissan and Merc entering the V8s next year too.
I'd still take one over a european car. Nothing quite so over reated as a German nmade car in my opinion.
Yeah the top end stuff is great. M5s and AMGs are awesome, but a 316i or a Golf? Nah, not for me thanks.
The Brits complain that TVR is dead and Lotus suffering. They complain that Jag is not Indian. When the Aussies protect their auto industry, they are slated for it. Weird.
thehawk said:
Pommygranite said:
I'm not all pro Ford but I'm very impressed by my G6E Turbo but I think that might be predominantly because of the engine. It must be said that it's handling is not far off that of an E60 5 series, it's equipment levels are decent (full leather, climate, awesome stereo, Bluetooth, reverse camera/sensors etc) and cost $43k at 7 months old with 7000 k's on it - nothing comes close at that price and is the equivalent 5 series (550?) really worth 3-4 times as much? I'm not convinced.
The 5 series is vastly superior in my opinion, just the design and interior alone. And still one of the best chassis in any car. It's cheap muscle, but equivalent cars in the States are cheaper and nicer inside too.Your argument on price is also tenuous. Is a Bentley worth 5x a BMW 550? Is a 911 worth 5x an STI?
I'll give one example of cheapness - the lack of lining on the boot door. Just exposed metal, looks nasty and cheap. ALso the centre console is pretty horrible. The colour screens may be good, but the cheaper LCD ones look terrible.
Not really tenuous as the class of car is similar whereas the ones you state aren't. Oh and my car has boot lining.
Can I ask what model Falcodore you last drove for an extended period and what you found so bad about the way it drove?
Here's an example of the boot lid not being lined - looks very cheap and nasty, plain cost cutting IMO. This was the same on the XR6 and XR8 models I was looking at.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/201...
The XR6 I had for a week didn't drive horribly, but in now way was it as good as the 530I that I had owned previously.
http://www.caradvice.com.au/wp-content/uploads/201...
The XR6 I had for a week didn't drive horribly, but in now way was it as good as the 530I that I had owned previously.
It does seem that a lot of opinions on Falcodores reflect the experiences of the mid-90's to early 2000's versions which is understandable but I think the Falcon FG and Commodore VE are both leagues ahead of their earlier versions. Perhaps by the time newer versions came out old school Aussies were already brand tainted.
If you look at any base level car then it does feel a bit cheap butid rather have a base Falcodore than a base Aurion/Camry.
If you look at any base level car then it does feel a bit cheap butid rather have a base Falcodore than a base Aurion/Camry.
We get both over here in NZ and the split is much more even than in Oz. However, Commodores are still ahead largely due to Govt departments (mainly the police) buying them on the cheap. In my opinion Ford lost a lot of ground, especially in Oz, with the introduction of the AU Falcon which relied heavily on their new "Edge" styling (e.g. Ka, Focus etc.). A few Aussie hacks thought it was ugly and wrote as much in their mags and the generally conservative Aussie public stayed away in droves. The XR6 and 8 were more acceptable, but the die had been cast and it has taken a long time for Ford to recover lost ground. In NZ the "Edge" styling was not considered so controversial and the Falcons sold reasonably well, especially the XRs which, IIRC actually, outsold the standard models here. Then there is the Holden = Australian, Ford = American thing..... I've owned both and find them very similar. Australian motoring mags regularly have shootouts and through the years it is pretty much 50:50 which come out on top. Having said that the Turbo Falcon 6 apparently draws grudging admiration from even dyed in the wool Holden fans.
All true /\.
The Miami (5 Liter S/C) is developing a reputation too. Some of these things are pulling in excess of 350rwkw factory stock. A few with a improved W2A intercooler are pulling well over 400rwkw. Pretty much a world beater in a car under $90,000, especially the R Spec version.
The Miami (5 Liter S/C) is developing a reputation too. Some of these things are pulling in excess of 350rwkw factory stock. A few with a improved W2A intercooler are pulling well over 400rwkw. Pretty much a world beater in a car under $90,000, especially the R Spec version.
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