Should polyurethane bushes look like this?
Discussion
Please can someone confirm whether or not polyurethane bushes should deform like this?
They are on the lower shock eye, and were put on 2 weeks ago. I am concerned that they are going to be ripped due to the contact with the edge of the mounting bracket on the lower control arm.
I had to replace the original rubber bushes after 20,000km.
They are on the lower shock eye, and were put on 2 weeks ago. I am concerned that they are going to be ripped due to the contact with the edge of the mounting bracket on the lower control arm.
I had to replace the original rubber bushes after 20,000km.
Ime no.
it must have been tight to get in and once the back of the bush was fitted the rest was pushed in, the front edge of the bush where the sleeve goes through has caught on the metal and it has dragged the rest of the bush against the metal.
Not the best description. But I’ve seen it before.
it must have been tight to get in and once the back of the bush was fitted the rest was pushed in, the front edge of the bush where the sleeve goes through has caught on the metal and it has dragged the rest of the bush against the metal.
Not the best description. But I’ve seen it before.
Dan-k said:
Ime no.
it must have been tight to get in and once the back of the bush was fitted the rest was pushed in, the front edge of the bush where the sleeve goes through has caught on the metal and it has dragged the rest of the bush against the metal.
Not the best description. But I’ve seen it before.
Below is a picture of the bushes immediately after they were put in (the car is on the ground in the photo) - they look fine here.it must have been tight to get in and once the back of the bush was fitted the rest was pushed in, the front edge of the bush where the sleeve goes through has caught on the metal and it has dragged the rest of the bush against the metal.
Not the best description. But I’ve seen it before.
I went back to the suspension workshop and the guy told me they are 'liquid' and is normal for them to do this. He said he could put a new set in and exactly the same thing would happen, because of the weight of the car.
I have emailed Superpro (the manufacturer) and at first they said it looked like they were damaged when they were put in, but then he suddenly changed his mind and said they looked fine!
E-bmw said:
It is hard to say definitively from the pics, but it almost looks like they either have too big an internal diameter, so the bolt has not held them in place correctly, or they have been installed without an expected internal metal bush.
Koni confirmed the correct Superpro part number for the bushes (their own rubber replacement bushes have a 3 month delivery time, so they advised to use Superpro bushes).I think they definitely would have used the internal crush tube, as otherwise they would have collapsed down immediately as soon as the car was back on the ground.
I emailed Superpro again with another photo. He repeated that they look 'fine' to him, but this time he offered to send me a replacement pair of bushes as I 'was not happy.'
The bushes cost about 50 quid, but if I put a second replacement set in, I will have spent over 400 quid on labour charges (including two alignments) so a set of free bushes is kind of missing the point, especially as the same thing might happen again.
Edited by tom321 on Wednesday 4th May 12:18
The second pic (when first fitted) looks ok the first pic looks like it has pinched itself like it was dragged into the bracket.
Pretty weird tbh. Was the car on its wheels when the bolt was tightened up?
Personally I would always use powerflex bushes (and I have done for 20years) as I’ve never had an issue with them whereas I have seen issues with other manufacturers.
I used to dismantle cars some with aftermarket bushes and the worst I’ve seen is with deflex where the tube had deformed the rubber bush and was floppy.
Bit of a difficult situation with the costs involved. You could try greasing the outside of the bush to see if it will slip back into position or loosen the bolt and retighten incase the pin has gripped the bush and has twisted it. But I wouldn’t be happy if that was on my car.
Pretty weird tbh. Was the car on its wheels when the bolt was tightened up?
Personally I would always use powerflex bushes (and I have done for 20years) as I’ve never had an issue with them whereas I have seen issues with other manufacturers.
I used to dismantle cars some with aftermarket bushes and the worst I’ve seen is with deflex where the tube had deformed the rubber bush and was floppy.
Bit of a difficult situation with the costs involved. You could try greasing the outside of the bush to see if it will slip back into position or loosen the bolt and retighten incase the pin has gripped the bush and has twisted it. But I wouldn’t be happy if that was on my car.
As Dan-K has said it looks like the inside circumference of the Bush has been snagged by the mounting and having looked at your previous post regarding the original rubber bushes [not a stalker honest 
] they seem to have suffered the same fate. Those detailed images show that the inside edges of the mounting are quite sharp edged and could probably do with chamfering using a Dremel or similar. Should be fairly easy to do with the Land cruiser on the ground. Just undo and pivot the damper out of the way. Reassemble with silicone grease at the contact points and see how it fares from there.
] they seem to have suffered the same fate. Those detailed images show that the inside edges of the mounting are quite sharp edged and could probably do with chamfering using a Dremel or similar. Should be fairly easy to do with the Land cruiser on the ground. Just undo and pivot the damper out of the way. Reassemble with silicone grease at the contact points and see how it fares from there. Dan-k said:
The second pic (when first fitted) looks ok the first pic looks like it has pinched itself like it was dragged into the bracket.
Pretty weird tbh. Was the car on its wheels when the bolt was tightened up?
Personally I would always use powerflex bushes (and I have done for 20years) as I’ve never had an issue with them whereas I have seen issues with other manufacturers.
I used to dismantle cars some with aftermarket bushes and the worst I’ve seen is with deflex where the tube had deformed the rubber bush and was floppy.
Bit of a difficult situation with the costs involved. You could try greasing the outside of the bush to see if it will slip back into position or loosen the bolt and retighten incase the pin has gripped the bush and has twisted it. But I wouldn’t be happy if that was on my car.
Front what I've read, since polyurethane bushes are not 'vulcanised' to the metal, it wouldn't actually matter if the bolt had been tightened with the car off the ground? But I think it's very unlikely this happened in any case, since that was the reason the mechanic gave me when I asked him why the first set of bushes had failed so early.Pretty weird tbh. Was the car on its wheels when the bolt was tightened up?
Personally I would always use powerflex bushes (and I have done for 20years) as I’ve never had an issue with them whereas I have seen issues with other manufacturers.
I used to dismantle cars some with aftermarket bushes and the worst I’ve seen is with deflex where the tube had deformed the rubber bush and was floppy.
Bit of a difficult situation with the costs involved. You could try greasing the outside of the bush to see if it will slip back into position or loosen the bolt and retighten incase the pin has gripped the bush and has twisted it. But I wouldn’t be happy if that was on my car.
Superpro are the only brand that do replacement bushes for Koni shocks according to the Koni importer here in Australia.
Yeah, it's getting to the point where I could have spent less money just getting brand new Koni shocks fitted rather than replacing the bushes twice.
I'm not sure why the workshop didn't offer to do what you suggested, seems like a very logical thing to try.
When I went back to point out the weird appearemce of the bushes, the mechanic said the bushes look like this because of the weight of the car - it's got a bullbar, winch, spotlights etc, but so do most Landcruisers around here, and I can't find anyone else who's had the same problem.
There is one suspension company left here in Cairns that I haven't been to yet 😂, so I might get a fourth opinion from them.
5s Alive said:
As Dan-K has said it looks like the inside circumference of the Bush has been snagged by the mounting and having looked at your previous post regarding the original rubber bushes [not a stalker honest ] they seem to have suffered the same fate. Those detailed images show that the inside edges of the mounting are quite sharp edged and could probably do with chamfering using a Dremel or similar. Should be fairly easy to do with the Land cruiser on the ground. Just undo and pivot the damper out of the way. Reassemble with silicone grease at the contact points and see how it fares from there.
To me, it looks like the polyurethane has been pushed down and as a result has deformed and spread sideways, protruding over the edge of the mounting bracket. It should be hard enough to not deform under the weight of the car though?] they seem to have suffered the same fate. Those detailed images show that the inside edges of the mounting are quite sharp edged and could probably do with chamfering using a Dremel or similar. Should be fairly easy to do with the Land cruiser on the ground. Just undo and pivot the damper out of the way. Reassemble with silicone grease at the contact points and see how it fares from there. The new shocks were originally fitted by a mate and not a mechanic, so I can't be sure that he didn't tighten them with the car in the air and damage them as a result. But the bushes lasted at least 6 months before any damage was noticed, and not just a single week like the new ones.
The car is actually driving completely fine (it felt terrible/dangerous with the torn rubber bushes), so I might just give it another month or so and see if the bushes do get any rips or tears.
tom321 said:
5s Alive said:
As Dan-K has said it looks like the inside circumference of the Bush has been snagged by the mounting and having looked at your previous post regarding the original rubber bushes [not a stalker honest ] they seem to have suffered the same fate. Those detailed images show that the inside edges of the mounting are quite sharp edged and could probably do with chamfering using a Dremel or similar. Should be fairly easy to do with the Land cruiser on the ground. Just undo and pivot the damper out of the way. Reassemble with silicone grease at the contact points and see how it fares from there.
To me, it looks like the polyurethane has been pushed down and as a result has deformed and spread sideways, protruding over the edge of the mounting bracket. It should be hard enough to not deform under the weight of the car though?] they seem to have suffered the same fate. Those detailed images show that the inside edges of the mounting are quite sharp edged and could probably do with chamfering using a Dremel or similar. Should be fairly easy to do with the Land cruiser on the ground. Just undo and pivot the damper out of the way. Reassemble with silicone grease at the contact points and see how it fares from there. The new shocks were originally fitted by a mate and not a mechanic, so I can't be sure that he didn't tighten them with the car in the air and damage them as a result. But the bushes lasted at least 6 months before any damage was noticed, and not just a single week like the new ones.
The car is actually driving completely fine (it felt terrible/dangerous with the torn rubber bushes), so I might just give it another month or so and see if the bushes do get any rips or tears.
The Toyota OEM bush does not and therefore has more clearance from the mount. If this is the case it may be possible to press fit the OEM bushes if necessary.
5s Alive said:
I've had a Google for original Landcruiser bushings and it looks like this could well be a design issue with the Koni and then the Superpro versions. In both of these the rubber/polyurethane body of the bush protrudes beyond the bolt sleeve.
The Toyota OEM bush does not and therefore has more clearance from the mount. If this is the case it may be possible to press fit the OEM bushes if necessary.
I’ve not dealt with Toyota bushes but are you sure it’s actually the oe equipment is a rubber bush? As some bushes are actually a rose joint encased in rubber boots - and if that is the case it’s not recommended to swap to poly bushes. The Toyota OEM bush does not and therefore has more clearance from the mount. If this is the case it may be possible to press fit the OEM bushes if necessary.
one way to tell us are the oe bushes quite expensive? Like £100 per bush - As that would say it’s not just a piece of rubber with a pin.
As an example the Cosworth rear trailing arm bushes are encapsulated rose joints so there isn’t any movement of the central pin but the rubber stops excessive noise. But people used to swap them to powerflex and then the car would be all sloppy under acceleration.
Here’s an example of a proper Cosworth replacement bush - https://www.burtonpower.com/outer-trailing-arm-bus...
And it does make a difference when tightened in the air v on the floor as the inside of the bush is normally serrated so it will grip the pin and once it’s tightened up the bush squeezes against the fitting so it will twist the bush when put back on the floor - sometimes you’ll get away with it and it will settle but sometimes not.
Off topic - when people slap on a set of lowering springs and don’t loosen all the suspension components it shags the bushes quite quickly.
Certainly appears to be rubber when searching for the front shock or individual replacement bushes. Can't be sure without the VIN though.
If the poly part of the bush is a fairly tight interference fit before torqueing up then it's almost certainly going to get chewed up by suspension movement. Particularly the case with long travel suspension I imagine.
If the poly part of the bush is a fairly tight interference fit before torqueing up then it's almost certainly going to get chewed up by suspension movement. Particularly the case with long travel suspension I imagine.
5s Alive said:
Certainly appears to be rubber when searching for the front shock or individual replacement bushes. Can't be sure without the VIN though.
If the poly part of the bush is a fairly tight interference fit before torqueing up then it's almost certainly going to get chewed up by suspension movement. Particularly the case with long travel suspension I imagine.
Even if rubber it could have quite a lot of metal in it encased in rubber. If the poly part of the bush is a fairly tight interference fit before torqueing up then it's almost certainly going to get chewed up by suspension movement. Particularly the case with long travel suspension I imagine.
I’d say it’s probably like the 3rd example pic of my first image - the tube with a ball half way along injected with rubber.
That would limit movement to a couple mm and take the weight of the car without causing the problem he is having.
Tbh poly bushes are all about the application not just a fix all solution- of course they will make and sell you a bush, doesn’t mean it’s the correct to use.
I’ve not seen the original bush that failed so I don’t know if it done the same as this bush but if it was me I’d would prob replace with the oe equipment.
Doh!! I thought this was a fancy suspension arm not an actual shock absorber. Imo no you definitely can’t use poly bush in that application.
Edited by Dan-k on Thursday 5th May 08:04
Evoluzione said:
If you want quality with a lifetime guarantee from someone who cares then use Powerflex.
You pay for what you get.
I know the Powerflex guy is on here so people mention them a lot, but honestly, Superpro have been leagues ahead of Powerflex offerings for most poly bushes. I've lost count of the amount of baggy or split Powerflex's I've seen over the years. They're getting better lately though tbfh.You pay for what you get.
The correct answer with polybushes is don't use them unless you absolutely have to, 'cause most of the time they're worse than a bonded rubber bush.
PhillipM said:
I know the Powerflex guy is on here so people mention them a lot, but honestly, Superpro have been leagues ahead of Powerflex offerings for most poly bushes. I've lost count of the amount of baggy or split Powerflex's I've seen over the years. They're getting better lately though tbfh.
The correct answer with polybushes is don't use them unless you absolutely have to, 'cause most of the time they're worse than a bonded rubber bush.
Really? If you did find a baggy powerflex bush you send it back because it has a lifetime warranty, even if you don’t have a receipt. The correct answer with polybushes is don't use them unless you absolutely have to, 'cause most of the time they're worse than a bonded rubber bush.
Whereas super flex is 36 months or 36k miles.
Superflex has never been better than powerflex imo
As I’ve said I was a retailer of powerflex for over 15 years and never had a complaint or return of a powerflex bush kit, and I’ve dismantled many cars fitted with uprated bushes and have ONLY been able to resell the powerflex sets. All the others went in the bin.
Dan-k said:
Tbh poly bushes are all about the application not just a fix all solution- of course they will make and sell you a bush, doesn’t mean it’s the correct to use.
.
I suspect the poly bushes in the OPs case are the same as these for a Mk5 Golf rear lower damper mount and are in two parts so rely on the outer shoulder being clamped by the mounting to hold it in place unlike the OEM version that is a secure metal to metal press fit and no rubber comes into contact with the suspension arm mounting surface. .
Edited by Dan-k on Thursday 5th May 08:04
If the poly shoulders are chewed to pieces the inner part will probably migrate outwards and wear all the faster so it does look like OEM would be best in this particular application.
Dan-k said:
Really? If you did find a baggy powerflex bush you send it back because it has a lifetime warranty, even if you don’t have a receipt.
Whereas super flex is 36 months or 36k miles.
Superflex has never been better than powerflex imo
As I’ve said I was a retailer of powerflex for over 15 years and never had a complaint or return of a powerflex bush kit, and I’ve dismantled many cars fitted with uprated bushes and have ONLY been able to resell the powerflex sets. All the others went in the bin.
SuperFlex are *not* the same company as SuperPro.Whereas super flex is 36 months or 36k miles.
Superflex has never been better than powerflex imo
As I’ve said I was a retailer of powerflex for over 15 years and never had a complaint or return of a powerflex bush kit, and I’ve dismantled many cars fitted with uprated bushes and have ONLY been able to resell the powerflex sets. All the others went in the bin.
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