Discussion
Hi,
I’m hoping to go and look at this Spitfire http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-pa... at the weekend. If anyone has any advise on what to look out for specifically or just general comments they would be gratefully received. Also what is your opinion on the price and what do you think I can get it to in the current market?
Thanks alot,
Dan
P.S i meant advice haha
I’m hoping to go and look at this Spitfire http://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/classic-car-pa... at the weekend. If anyone has any advise on what to look out for specifically or just general comments they would be gratefully received. Also what is your opinion on the price and what do you think I can get it to in the current market?
Thanks alot,
Dan
P.S i meant advice haha
Edited by dan_swin on Wednesday 21st January 20:45
Edited by dan_swin on Wednesday 21st January 20:46
Its all about body and chassis with these old girls. Make sure the doors fit in their apertures properly with good even gaps and that they close without slamming them. If not then the likelihood is that new sills/floors have been fitted without bracing the body. The body can rust just about anywhere so take a magnet to check for filler, lift the carpets and check all body mounting points. Inner sills are a very important area especially at the seat belt mounts. The body seams around the boot floor rust so again get in and check carefully. The chassis are usually OK but can go at the extremities and around the diff mountings. Mechanically they are about as basic as you can get, check for crank end float and main bearing rumbles. Gearbox needs to have overdrive if you want to drive on motorways for any length of time. Check it works and make sure synchro on 2nd and 3rd doesn`t graunch on quick changes. Brakes are easy and cheap to put right and realistically will need regular work as they will seize through lack of use. Interior trim is easy to source and you get a complete kit for about £600. If you`re bothered about originality its worth checking that the engine is the right one as the 1500 lump was fitted to Dolomites and Midgets which had different cams etc. As for the price well it seems a bit steep but its in the ballpark. Don`t accept a club valuation or agreed value certificate as they are always over the top, I know I`ve got a £number on a Vitesse that I`d never get near if I tried to sell. Join one of the many Triumph clubs, get involved with your local area and you get a whole new bunch of mates and social life thrown in if you want it.
Right, I viewed the car today and over all it is nice. There are a few things that need doing, these include:- the heater not working, it has no stereo or speakers, the wing mirrors need changing and there is a tiny amount of welding that will need doing at some point. Apart from that the paintwork is fairly good all over and it drives really well. My question now is would an offer around £2500 be unfair considering the work that needs doing and the fact it is non-overdrive?
Thanks
Dan
Thanks
Dan
dan_swin said:
There are a few things that need doing, these include:- the heater not working, it has no stereo or speakers, the wing mirrors need changing and there is a tiny amount of welding that will need doing at some point.
Heater might be just a cble not connected or a stuck valve (easy to fix) or the matrix might be U/S, which is a PITA to rectify (if it's anything like a TR6 you have to strip out the dashboard)No stereo or speakers. If they are just completely absent dont worry, you can't here them anyway, in fact just put on a sports exhaust and enjoy the racket. If there are nasty big holes in the door cards you'll just have to get new door cards.
Wing Mirrors are cheap and easy to change. Are they wing mirrors or door mirrors?
Are you SURE there is only a tiny amount of welding needed? In my experience there is either none required, or loads...
Stil fancy a Spit though, despite the other things I have to play with. Come to think of it, my daughter needs acar...
dan_swin said:
Right, I viewed the car today and over all it is nice. There are a few things that need doing, these include:- the heater not working, it has no stereo or speakers, the wing mirrors need changing and there is a tiny amount of welding that will need doing at some point. Apart from that the paintwork is fairly good all over and it drives really well. My question now is would an offer around £2500 be unfair considering the work that needs doing and the fact it is non-overdrive?
Thanks
Dan
Dan,Thanks
Dan
Sounds to me this is the first Spit you`ve looked at? if so then I`d advise you to view a few before you decide. One thing worth noting is the free road tax issue ~ get one registered before Jan 1 1973 and its free whereas this 77 car will cost £185 a year. Also pre 73 cars are mostly Mark 3 Spits which whilst only 1300 engines are arguably the most sought after of all the versions. As for this 1500 the heater could be something or nothing. Lack of overdrive is more of an issue especially when you come to sell it. Fitting it is reasonably straight forward but expensive, all depends if you can source the required bits, decent second hand kits are getting hard to find and new/recon kits cost about a grand. The area of most concern is the bit about the welding ~ if you can see areas of rot there will be others you can`t. As you have viewed and driven the car and then walked away without buying it obviously you have your doubts. If I were you I`d look elsewhere and if necessary travel stupid distances to find what you want, sod`s law says the right car will be the other end of the country. The last car I bought was 300 miles away which involved a 4 change train journey but definitely worth the effort.
Thought after 19 years of Spitfire ownership....
1. Buy a copy of Practical Classics - latest one has a brief buyers guide but back issue buyers guide will be very useful
2. Go armed with several screwdrivers and a small magnet
3. Be prepared to dig into every corner. If the buyer is not OK with you doing this walk away
4. Start with the bodywork - the mechanicals are usually cheaper to repair. How does it look? Is the bonnet well placed in relation to the front edge of the sills and the front quarter panels? Are the front quarter panels metal or fibreglass? (don't be afraid of fibreglass - many years ago this was all that was available and they were of fair quality). Pay particular attention to the door gaps - are they even at the rear edge of the doors. If the door gaps are narrower at the top then the sills might be dodgy or repaired badly. Check for filler at joins and lower parts of the car, particularly the sills and door bottoms. Open the doors. Check the A and B pillars for filler. Flex the screen a little and make sure it is fairly rigid. Inside, lift the carpets and check in all the corners. You can also get access to the front top edge of the inner sill (this might be covered in carpet - remove it. Tilt the seats forward and check the rear corners. If they will allow you, remove the trim covering the inner rear wheel arches and have a good look inside. The front lower edge of the rear wings is a rust spot. Same in the boot. Pull out the spare wheel and check the front lower edge of the boot floor. Look inside the rear wings at the joins with the inner and outer wings. Check the rear edge of the boot lid. Is there a metal hardtop? If so, check the front edge for rust/filler. Make sure the roof comes with the necessary fittings - chrome bolts for the rear edge and two different pairs of long chrome fittings - one pair is shorter to hold the front lower edges of the roof to the hood frame - the other pair is longer to be used with the hood frame removed (or possibly vice versa).
5. On to the mechanicals. These are common sense (as with the above I suppose). Weak spots on the spitfire are (in order of expense)
a) engine. Check oil pressure in particular - a well looked after car will have an oil pressure gauge fitted and possibly an oil cooler. There is a problem with oil getting to the head - a well cared for car will have an exterior braided pipe fitted to carry extra oil to the head - the feed is from the oil pressure switch. Listen for any bearing knock on the test drive - the main bearings will rattle just at the point where load is taken off the engine. Take a compression gauge and check each cylinder is running the same pressure.
b) gearbox. on the test drive, check easy entrance and exit to gears at different speeds. Check in particular that the car does not jump out of third when lifting off from reasonable speed. The 1500 gearbox should be much tighter and direct compared with the 1300 box.
c) drive train. on the test drive, listen for knocks from the drive train. Worn universal joints are a regular issue between the diff and the drive shafts to the wheels. These can be heard as a tapping noise when drifting along in gear. Diffs also wear - drive along slowly in second and go on and off the accelerator lightly - you'll hear a worn diff knocking.
d) brakes - can become a problem with a car that is not driven enough. A good restoration will have used brass brake pipes. If they are mild steel then check for general condition and pay attention to where they pass through or are connected with the chassis. Check the pedal. It will be spongy but should not be too bad. A second pump always helps to increase effectiveness! A well cared for car will have braided pipes at the front. Check for even braking on the test drive.
e) suspension and steering - many people don't realise that the front hubs should be filled with engine oil and not with grease. Ask the owner when this was last done and what they used. Check for easy steering at pretty much all speeds - ideally jack the car up and check that the steering operates easily. Try to check for worn bushes and track rod ends. At the back, check the rear spring. A slightly worn spring is actually better - lowers the rear and improves handling.
6. Electrics - I've not had major problems over the years. The greatest annoyance has been the rear indicators which suffer from a poor earth - just bite the bullet and fit a separate earth wire rather then rely on the connection to the bulb holder.
The rest are cosmetics and not worth haggling over.
No doubt I've left some important things out but then it's after 9 and the wine is taking effect...
As you will see from my profile, I've added a bit since the Spittie but I have to say that it gives me just as much fun on a sunny day as any of the others!
Good hunting!
1. Buy a copy of Practical Classics - latest one has a brief buyers guide but back issue buyers guide will be very useful
2. Go armed with several screwdrivers and a small magnet
3. Be prepared to dig into every corner. If the buyer is not OK with you doing this walk away
4. Start with the bodywork - the mechanicals are usually cheaper to repair. How does it look? Is the bonnet well placed in relation to the front edge of the sills and the front quarter panels? Are the front quarter panels metal or fibreglass? (don't be afraid of fibreglass - many years ago this was all that was available and they were of fair quality). Pay particular attention to the door gaps - are they even at the rear edge of the doors. If the door gaps are narrower at the top then the sills might be dodgy or repaired badly. Check for filler at joins and lower parts of the car, particularly the sills and door bottoms. Open the doors. Check the A and B pillars for filler. Flex the screen a little and make sure it is fairly rigid. Inside, lift the carpets and check in all the corners. You can also get access to the front top edge of the inner sill (this might be covered in carpet - remove it. Tilt the seats forward and check the rear corners. If they will allow you, remove the trim covering the inner rear wheel arches and have a good look inside. The front lower edge of the rear wings is a rust spot. Same in the boot. Pull out the spare wheel and check the front lower edge of the boot floor. Look inside the rear wings at the joins with the inner and outer wings. Check the rear edge of the boot lid. Is there a metal hardtop? If so, check the front edge for rust/filler. Make sure the roof comes with the necessary fittings - chrome bolts for the rear edge and two different pairs of long chrome fittings - one pair is shorter to hold the front lower edges of the roof to the hood frame - the other pair is longer to be used with the hood frame removed (or possibly vice versa).
5. On to the mechanicals. These are common sense (as with the above I suppose). Weak spots on the spitfire are (in order of expense)
a) engine. Check oil pressure in particular - a well looked after car will have an oil pressure gauge fitted and possibly an oil cooler. There is a problem with oil getting to the head - a well cared for car will have an exterior braided pipe fitted to carry extra oil to the head - the feed is from the oil pressure switch. Listen for any bearing knock on the test drive - the main bearings will rattle just at the point where load is taken off the engine. Take a compression gauge and check each cylinder is running the same pressure.
b) gearbox. on the test drive, check easy entrance and exit to gears at different speeds. Check in particular that the car does not jump out of third when lifting off from reasonable speed. The 1500 gearbox should be much tighter and direct compared with the 1300 box.
c) drive train. on the test drive, listen for knocks from the drive train. Worn universal joints are a regular issue between the diff and the drive shafts to the wheels. These can be heard as a tapping noise when drifting along in gear. Diffs also wear - drive along slowly in second and go on and off the accelerator lightly - you'll hear a worn diff knocking.
d) brakes - can become a problem with a car that is not driven enough. A good restoration will have used brass brake pipes. If they are mild steel then check for general condition and pay attention to where they pass through or are connected with the chassis. Check the pedal. It will be spongy but should not be too bad. A second pump always helps to increase effectiveness! A well cared for car will have braided pipes at the front. Check for even braking on the test drive.
e) suspension and steering - many people don't realise that the front hubs should be filled with engine oil and not with grease. Ask the owner when this was last done and what they used. Check for easy steering at pretty much all speeds - ideally jack the car up and check that the steering operates easily. Try to check for worn bushes and track rod ends. At the back, check the rear spring. A slightly worn spring is actually better - lowers the rear and improves handling.
6. Electrics - I've not had major problems over the years. The greatest annoyance has been the rear indicators which suffer from a poor earth - just bite the bullet and fit a separate earth wire rather then rely on the connection to the bulb holder.
The rest are cosmetics and not worth haggling over.
No doubt I've left some important things out but then it's after 9 and the wine is taking effect...
As you will see from my profile, I've added a bit since the Spittie but I have to say that it gives me just as much fun on a sunny day as any of the others!
Good hunting!
FLAT 6 said:
2. Go armed with several screwdrivers and a small magnet
'Soft' fridge magnets are great for this as they usually have a plastic coating that prevents paint scratching and will roll around the contours for the car.FLAT 6 said:
5. On to the mechanicals. These are common sense (as with the above I suppose). Weak spots on the spitfire are (in order of expense)
a) engine. Check oil pressure in particular - a well looked after car will have an oil pressure gauge fitted and possibly an oil cooler. There is a problem with oil getting to the head - a well cared for car will have an exterior braided pipe fitted to carry extra oil to the head - the feed is from the oil pressure switch. Listen for any bearing knock on the test drive - the main bearings will rattle just at the point where load is taken off the engine. Take a compression gauge and check each cylinder is running the same pressure.
Can't say I agree with all these points.a) engine. Check oil pressure in particular - a well looked after car will have an oil pressure gauge fitted and possibly an oil cooler. There is a problem with oil getting to the head - a well cared for car will have an exterior braided pipe fitted to carry extra oil to the head - the feed is from the oil pressure switch. Listen for any bearing knock on the test drive - the main bearings will rattle just at the point where load is taken off the engine. Take a compression gauge and check each cylinder is running the same pressure.
1) The Spitfire didn't come with an oil pressure gauge and may of us don't like to fit one/feel is necessary BECAUSE we look after our engines well.
2) The only Spitfires I've known with head oil supply issues have either been well past their best and abused, resulting in the (internal) head feed and/or rocker shaft feed being gummed-up by 100,000 mile oil (~10%) or have had an external oil feed fitter (~90%).
Unless you strip the head off and block the internal feed AND fit a restrictor in to the external feed to limit flow all the external feed does is rob pressure from the bottom end, over-oil and top end and pour oil down the valve stems and in to the engine.
At this point at least one specialist will blaim the increased oil consumption on the 'bad' Triumph engine design not having valve stem oil seals and sell you some MG ones...or just take the pointless waste of money off the car, stop chucking more oil up there than Triumph intended and you don't NEED valve stem oil seals (which is why Thiumph didn't fit them).
Also take a friend with you and get them to watch/put a hand on the crank pully (engine not running in the latter case of course!) while you depress the clutch a few times. If the thrust washers are worn/have dropped you will see/feel the crank moving back/forward when the clutch is used.
FLAT 6 said:
e) suspension and steering - many people don't realise that the front hubs should be filled with engine oil and not with grease.
Umm, no. The front HUB should be filled with grease.The front TRUNNIONS on the other had should be filled with oil (EP90 to GL4 and NOT GL5 spec - same for gearbox/diff).
I'll put this one doen to the wine
It's very hard to tell what value to put on it - the paintwork looks to be reasonable but you can't tell from photos if that's good paint on good metal or good paint on filler/fibreglass/etc.
On the face of it I'd say it's worth a trip to see the car/have a poke around - at £1,750 it seems a good buy on the surface, possibly a little cheap (need to see the car in the flesh to tell if it's a bargin or has hidden issues).
On the face of it I'd say it's worth a trip to see the car/have a poke around - at £1,750 it seems a good buy on the surface, possibly a little cheap (need to see the car in the flesh to tell if it's a bargin or has hidden issues).
[/quote]
Can't say I agree with all these points.
1) The Spitfire didn't come with an oil pressure gauge and may of us don't like to fit one/feel is necessary BECAUSE we look after our engines well.
2) The only Spitfires I've known with head oil supply issues have either been well past their best and abused, resulting in the (internal) head feed and/or rocker shaft feed being gummed-up by 100,000 mile oil (~10%) or have had an external oil feed fitter (~90%).
Unless you strip the head off and block the internal feed AND fit a restrictor in to the external feed to limit flow all the external feed does is rob pressure from the bottom end, over-oil and top end and pour oil down the valve stems and in to the engine.
At this point at least one specialist will blaim the increased oil consumption on the 'bad' Triumph engine design not having valve stem oil seals and sell you some MG ones...or just take the pointless waste of money off the car, stop chucking more oil up there than Triumph intended and you don't NEED valve stem oil seals (which is why Thiumph didn't fit them).
Also take a friend with you and get them to watch/put a hand on the crank pully (engine not running in the latter case of course!) while you depress the clutch a few times. If the thrust washers are worn/have dropped you will see/feel the crank moving back/forward when the clutch is used.
[quote=FLAT 6]
e) suspension and steering - many people don't realise that the front hubs should be filled with engine oil and not with grease.
[/quote]
Umm, no. The front HUB should be filled with grease.
The front TRUNNIONS on the other had should be filled with oil (EP90 to GL4 and NOT GL5 spec - same for gearbox/diff).
I'll put this one doen to the wine
[/quote]
Yup - the last bit was definitely down to the wine.
Interesting comments on the external oil feed. It was fitted a long time ago but at the time the general wisdom was that the head suffered from under supply. At the time, I had just had the engine rebuilt (at 100,000) so there was no issue about maintenance. The rebuild was needed due to general wear and tear and my reading up suggested that oil pressure was a fundamental problem in the design of this engine. As a result, I followed the 'Triumph Tune' advice and fitted an oil cooler. I remember that the fitting of the oil cooler required a different spring in the oil pressure relief valve and I think it was at this point that the external oil feed to the head was recommended.
I can report that it's been in place for c.17 years. The engine uses very little oil so there does not appear to be a problem with over-supply. The exhaust does not suggest that the engine is burning oil but then the head's in good shape. It was not fitted with MG oil seals and was not converted for unleaded.
Anyway, each to their own. I take some comfort from my oil pressure gauge and I suspect it was not fitted for cost reasons as opposed to not being useful!
FLAT 6 said:
...I followed the 'Triumph Tune' advice...
That (though now under the Moss banner) would be the Triumph specialist Actually there are three major camps on the issue; those that have fitted one and not had any problems (like yourself), those that have fitted one and taken it off as a waste of oil (like myself), and those that have never fitted one.
All of the groups engines last about the same length of time and none of them have any real issues with their rocker shafts.
There is a fourth, smaller group that have them fitted and find them essential - but they are the people with roller rockers fitted that DO need extra lubrication.
Personally if you've had one on for 100,000 without issue I'd leave it on there. If it ain't broke - leave it alone!
Hi there,
You've got me thinking now....
The external oil feed was fitted after the engine rebuild as a mod to work alongside the oil cooler. To be honest, I've no idea how many miles the engine had done prior to the rebuild since it's a 1500 in a Mk4!
The engine has now done about 10,000 miles on this setup. All seems well, although my oil pressure drops dramatically when the engine is being 'pushed'. I had been told that excessive oil temperature is a problem with this engine, hence the oil cooler.
I'm interested to know if you have any thoughts on whether, in fact, the external oil feed might reduce the life of my engine over the long term through starving the bottom end? If I thought this it would come off immediately!!
Not that it get's driven this time of year anyway. Evil salt gets nowhere near it these days!
You've got me thinking now....
The external oil feed was fitted after the engine rebuild as a mod to work alongside the oil cooler. To be honest, I've no idea how many miles the engine had done prior to the rebuild since it's a 1500 in a Mk4!
The engine has now done about 10,000 miles on this setup. All seems well, although my oil pressure drops dramatically when the engine is being 'pushed'. I had been told that excessive oil temperature is a problem with this engine, hence the oil cooler.
I'm interested to know if you have any thoughts on whether, in fact, the external oil feed might reduce the life of my engine over the long term through starving the bottom end? If I thought this it would come off immediately!!
Not that it get's driven this time of year anyway. Evil salt gets nowhere near it these days!
On the engine question I'd actually search/post it on the Club Triumph forms - you will get a wider range of opinions/experience as it's a oft-covered topic.
The registrations - yes, they are the Triumph competition numbers, certainly Le Mans and I think the ralley cars too. Sadly they are only photoshopped on to the pictures - ADU1B is Mark Field at Jigsaw's Le Mans recreation (http://www.jigsawracingservices.co.uk/adu1b.htm) and ADU4B is the origonal car owned by David Pearson at Canley Classics (http://www.canleyclassics.com/triumphmuseum.asp?article=adu4b.xml)
The registrations - yes, they are the Triumph competition numbers, certainly Le Mans and I think the ralley cars too. Sadly they are only photoshopped on to the pictures - ADU1B is Mark Field at Jigsaw's Le Mans recreation (http://www.jigsawracingservices.co.uk/adu1b.htm) and ADU4B is the origonal car owned by David Pearson at Canley Classics (http://www.canleyclassics.com/triumphmuseum.asp?article=adu4b.xml)
//j17 said:
It's very hard to tell what value to put on it - the paintwork looks to be reasonable but you can't tell from photos if that's good paint on good metal or good paint on filler/fibreglass/etc.
On the face of it I'd say it's worth a trip to see the car/have a poke around - at £1,750 it seems a good buy on the surface, possibly a little cheap (need to see the car in the flesh to tell if it's a bargin or has hidden issues).
Thanks, I bought that car in the end for £1600 including a few extra parts and its solid and running well so far (fingers crossed!) so it looks to have been a good buy atm On the face of it I'd say it's worth a trip to see the car/have a poke around - at £1,750 it seems a good buy on the surface, possibly a little cheap (need to see the car in the flesh to tell if it's a bargin or has hidden issues).
Thanks
Dan
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