Spitfire Mk3 Restoration - Where to start?
Discussion
My Dad's first car is in the garage - A Triumph Mk3, Late 1969, 1293cc, with a fair few miles and a bit of classic modding too - Unfortunately, he stopped running it up somewhere around 1980, and with a flat roof that failed for a few years, a touch of surface rust has gotten to the car in the engine bay etc - Generally looks like it could do with an aggressive wire brush!
I've prodded, poked and peered at the floor panels, arches and the likes and can't see anything immediately terrifying in corrosion terms, which is reassuring - The tyres still hold air (Inner tubes
-They have been flat for 40 years though, so I don't think they'll be going very far...)!
Now;
The interior could do with some love, which as part of restoration I'd like to completely strip and "Restomod" with some sound deadening?
Brakes are still single circuit - Will want to sort that out with a dual circuit system before putting it anywhere near the road.
Fuel system, hoses etc; Will need draining and refilling with fresh fuel of course, but likely thinking it'd want a fuel tank replacement given 40 years of sitting, and replacement of all rubber hoses.
Clutch (And transmission?) were replaced just before storage too, but it's likely seized to the flywheel.
Bodywork is relatively sound - It did get a respray prior to "storage", but there is pitting and some rusty patches peeling up at the arches (Just surface rust under the paint - Not properly flaking or anything) - A respray would be nice, but let's sort out the basics first.
I think it's around 180,000 Miles, but the drivetrain is something of a ship of theseus - It does have airhorns, kenlow fan and an electronic ignition setup of some kind.
I've got a few notes from my dad - I'll see if he has any more information, but:
1x 1 1/2" Carb
Herald 80 rear Diff and halfshafts / brake hub modifications?
All very puzzling and scattered - But the fundamental question - Where do I start?
I'm relatively mechanically competent, and happy to deal with most things myself. Heavier lifting, welding and the likes (I'd love a body-off-frame, full strip and powdercoat etc. but again - find somewhere to start!) are more of a challenge.
If I could get it turning over, that would be a start I'd imagine?
I've prodded, poked and peered at the floor panels, arches and the likes and can't see anything immediately terrifying in corrosion terms, which is reassuring - The tyres still hold air (Inner tubes
-They have been flat for 40 years though, so I don't think they'll be going very far...)!Now;
The interior could do with some love, which as part of restoration I'd like to completely strip and "Restomod" with some sound deadening?
Brakes are still single circuit - Will want to sort that out with a dual circuit system before putting it anywhere near the road.
Fuel system, hoses etc; Will need draining and refilling with fresh fuel of course, but likely thinking it'd want a fuel tank replacement given 40 years of sitting, and replacement of all rubber hoses.
Clutch (And transmission?) were replaced just before storage too, but it's likely seized to the flywheel.
Bodywork is relatively sound - It did get a respray prior to "storage", but there is pitting and some rusty patches peeling up at the arches (Just surface rust under the paint - Not properly flaking or anything) - A respray would be nice, but let's sort out the basics first.
I think it's around 180,000 Miles, but the drivetrain is something of a ship of theseus - It does have airhorns, kenlow fan and an electronic ignition setup of some kind.
I've got a few notes from my dad - I'll see if he has any more information, but:
1x 1 1/2" Carb
Herald 80 rear Diff and halfshafts / brake hub modifications?
All very puzzling and scattered - But the fundamental question - Where do I start?
I'm relatively mechanically competent, and happy to deal with most things myself. Heavier lifting, welding and the likes (I'd love a body-off-frame, full strip and powdercoat etc. but again - find somewhere to start!) are more of a challenge.
If I could get it turning over, that would be a start I'd imagine?
A few things that jump into my mind immediately.
- Check the chassis rails and outriggers for rust. It's not a question of 'if', but 'how much' rust is present
- Front suspension trunnions will be shot - replace with new and lubricate with EP90 gear oil, not grease. Greased trunnions = snapped kingpins
- I can't recall the correct diff for a MK3, I *think* it was a 3.89:1 unit, if it's been replaced with a Herald 4.11:1 unit, the speedo is going to be reading incorrectly
- It should have twin 1.25" SU carbs, not a single 1.5" carb. If there's a single Stromberg 150CD fitted, you've probably got a Herald 13/60 engine not a Mk3 spitfire engine - check the engine number to confim
- The engine is probably going to need opening up and stripping, as will the gearbox. Some of the transmission components haven't seen oil for 40 years, so they will almost certainly have corroded / seized. Similarly in the engine, none of the moving parts have been protected, so corrosion is going to be there somewhere.
Great project though, I do love the Mk3 Spitfire. IMHO, the best version of the Spitfire that Triumph made.
- Check the chassis rails and outriggers for rust. It's not a question of 'if', but 'how much' rust is present
- Front suspension trunnions will be shot - replace with new and lubricate with EP90 gear oil, not grease. Greased trunnions = snapped kingpins
- I can't recall the correct diff for a MK3, I *think* it was a 3.89:1 unit, if it's been replaced with a Herald 4.11:1 unit, the speedo is going to be reading incorrectly
- It should have twin 1.25" SU carbs, not a single 1.5" carb. If there's a single Stromberg 150CD fitted, you've probably got a Herald 13/60 engine not a Mk3 spitfire engine - check the engine number to confim
- The engine is probably going to need opening up and stripping, as will the gearbox. Some of the transmission components haven't seen oil for 40 years, so they will almost certainly have corroded / seized. Similarly in the engine, none of the moving parts have been protected, so corrosion is going to be there somewhere.
Great project though, I do love the Mk3 Spitfire. IMHO, the best version of the Spitfire that Triumph made.
Try to resist the temptation to tear it to pieces straight away.
These are simple cars and easy to get roadworthy if not rotted and I would start by checking for serious rust, getting the mechanicals working including clutch and brakes and then seeing what it really needs.
Nice hobby cars to home restore.
These are simple cars and easy to get roadworthy if not rotted and I would start by checking for serious rust, getting the mechanicals working including clutch and brakes and then seeing what it really needs.
Nice hobby cars to home restore.
Pistom said:
Try to resist the temptation to tear it to pieces straight away.
These are simple cars and easy to get roadworthy if not rotted and I would start by checking for serious rust, getting the mechanicals working including clutch and brakes and then seeing what it really needs.
Nice hobby cars to home restore.
This.These are simple cars and easy to get roadworthy if not rotted and I would start by checking for serious rust, getting the mechanicals working including clutch and brakes and then seeing what it really needs.
Nice hobby cars to home restore.
They're very quick and easy to take apart but resist the temptation. Just get it working and sort out any serious corrosion to start with then see where you want to go with it.
I've just bought a GT6 which is keeping me both busy and poor, even though it's on the road and driving following a hurried "restoration" (by someone else, not me). Most parts I've needed so far have either come from the happy band of Triumph Specialists (Rimmers as mentioned, also Canley Classics and SportsCar Spares) or used via eBay.
Be careful if you "restomod" anything: the appeal of these is their simplicity and olde worlde charm. The seats in mine are absolutely shot and need replacing. I've thought about new, aftermarket seats (like, for example, Sparco or Corbeau) but will probably end up either refurbishing my originals or - more likely - replacing with refurbished ones on an exchange basis. The point being, this maintains the original look and will ensure they fit.
Good luck with it - they're great little cars.
Be careful if you "restomod" anything: the appeal of these is their simplicity and olde worlde charm. The seats in mine are absolutely shot and need replacing. I've thought about new, aftermarket seats (like, for example, Sparco or Corbeau) but will probably end up either refurbishing my originals or - more likely - replacing with refurbished ones on an exchange basis. The point being, this maintains the original look and will ensure they fit.
Good luck with it - they're great little cars.
Another supplier for the list - James Paddock. Never had any issues with the quality of their sttuff (unlike some others) and usually cheaper than the biggest boys.
To restomod or not is completely up to each owner, what they want their car to be and/or how they want to use it. Sure if you're just in it as an investment you'd want to go stock (and probably not buy a Spitfire
) but outside that do whatever you want. Stock's great for Sunday cars and polishers but the more/farther you want to drive the car the more you tend to upgrade.
...Which brings us nicely to seats. A tired set of Spitfire/GT6 seats are fine for a Sunday pub car but even freshly renovated they don't encourage more than a few hours in the saddle. I've got Mk1 MX-5 seats in mine and while you do sit a little high I've never been someone to worry too many low ceilings - and more importantly can drive 330 miles/8.5hrs of back roads from London to Le Mans and just jump out the car to put up the tent, without having to wait for legs/back/etc to recover.
To restomod or not is completely up to each owner, what they want their car to be and/or how they want to use it. Sure if you're just in it as an investment you'd want to go stock (and probably not buy a Spitfire
) but outside that do whatever you want. Stock's great for Sunday cars and polishers but the more/farther you want to drive the car the more you tend to upgrade....Which brings us nicely to seats. A tired set of Spitfire/GT6 seats are fine for a Sunday pub car but even freshly renovated they don't encourage more than a few hours in the saddle. I've got Mk1 MX-5 seats in mine and while you do sit a little high I've never been someone to worry too many low ceilings - and more importantly can drive 330 miles/8.5hrs of back roads from London to Le Mans and just jump out the car to put up the tent, without having to wait for legs/back/etc to recover.
//j17 said:
.
To restomod or not is completely up to each owner, what they want their car to be and/or how they want to use it. Sure if you're just in it as an investment you'd want to go stock (and probably not buy a Spitfire ) but outside that do whatever you want. Stock's great for Sunday cars and polishers but the more/farther you want to drive the car the more you tend to upgrade.
In terms of Restomod... I can tell you from personal experience that:To restomod or not is completely up to each owner, what they want their car to be and/or how they want to use it. Sure if you're just in it as an investment you'd want to go stock (and probably not buy a Spitfire
) but outside that do whatever you want. Stock's great for Sunday cars and polishers but the more/farther you want to drive the car the more you tend to upgrade.- The Mk3 1296 engine can be uprated to around 125 bhp if you're willing to invest the time and money. At this level it will probably snap its crankshaft sooner rather than later, usually in the #1 big end.
- The Dolomite Sprint engine will fit with only minor alterations to the bonnet and gives a reliable 130bhp, without the likelihood of snapping its crank
- Converting to the later 'swing spring' rear suspension is relatively straightforward
- GT6 brakes are a big improvement
- regardless of engine, it needs an overdrive fitted if not already present
Whether you keep standard or modify extensively, this has the potential to be a huge amount of fun
TBH I would try and fire it up - stick a bore scope down the plug holes to check for water or rust in the pots, then change the water, oil and filter. Crank it over with the HT lead out of the coil to build oil pressure then splash some petrol into the carb, and see it it will bark with the lead back in. It's more inspiring if it runs than if it's a pile of parts in the garage.
//j17 said:
Will also tell you if your project's going to require an engine rebuild or not.
TBH, if the engine has stood for 40 years without moving, I'd plan to rebuild it anyway. I wouldn't even try to start it due to the potential to do damage. I'll be surprised if the pistons aren't jammed in the bores, and if there isn't a fair degree of corrosion inside the engine. The oil sump will be full of sludge by now, as will the bucket type cam followers . While you can rinse the worst of it out of the sump, you won't get the contents of the cam followers out easily. I suspect the oil seals will also have deteriorated to the point of not holding oil, and I dread to think what the timing chain tensioner looks like! I rebuilt a MK3 Spitfire engine that hadn't run for 10 years in 1991. Bought it from a member of the TSSC, took it home (in the boot of a Herald). Then started stripping it.
- It took me two days using hot oil to free up two of the pistons and get them out of the bores
- Two of the three main bearing journals, and two of the big end journals were corroded - crank had to be reground
- Timing chain tensioner was very badly corroded, and would probably have failed fairly quickly
- Piston rings had 'dug in' to the cylinder walls - so rebore required
As I was using this engine for the basis of a tuning project it was going to be fully stripped anyway, but I was surprised by how far it had deteriorated after 10 years in a garage.
For those interested in such things, the final result was
- 30 thou overbore
- crank 10 thou grind and nitrided
- lightweight 'slipper' pistons
- Kent "stage 3" cam
- roller rockers (more valve lift)
- bottom end fully balanced with flywheel and clutch in place
- cylinder head re-worked and flowed, bigger valves installed, uprated valve springs
- 40 DCOE Weber carbs
- TSSC "Bell Silencers" exhaust system
Dyno'd at 125 bhp at 7,200 rpm after the usual fun of setting up and jetting Webers. To my 20 year old ears it even sounded good, despite only being a 4-cylinder.
That's a fun list!
I did have a peer inside the cylinder head via the oil filler and things did look greasy inside, rather than crusty, impressively - I'm sure that might change once the head is off though.
I know the engine had been replaced not too long before the storage, so it's not quite the full 100+K worth, I think(?) It may have also been slightly storage prepared - One can hope!
I did have a peer inside the cylinder head via the oil filler and things did look greasy inside, rather than crusty, impressively - I'm sure that might change once the head is off though.
I know the engine had been replaced not too long before the storage, so it's not quite the full 100+K worth, I think(?) It may have also been slightly storage prepared - One can hope!
Haltamer said:
That's a fun list!
I did have a peer inside the cylinder head via the oil filler and things did look greasy inside, rather than crusty, impressively - I'm sure that might change once the head is off though.
I know the engine had been replaced not too long before the storage, so it's not quite the full 100+K worth, I think(?) It may have also been slightly storage prepared - One can hope!
It was a huge amount of fun to build it and set everything up. Was even more satisfying installing it into an uprated Herald. You can imagine the impact at the time, when boy racers in the XR3is and similar couldn't keep up with a Herald I did have a peer inside the cylinder head via the oil filler and things did look greasy inside, rather than crusty, impressively - I'm sure that might change once the head is off though.
I know the engine had been replaced not too long before the storage, so it's not quite the full 100+K worth, I think(?) It may have also been slightly storage prepared - One can hope!
Magnum 475 said:
Haltamer said:
That's a fun list!
I did have a peer inside the cylinder head via the oil filler and things did look greasy inside, rather than crusty, impressively - I'm sure that might change once the head is off though.
I know the engine had been replaced not too long before the storage, so it's not quite the full 100+K worth, I think(?) It may have also been slightly storage prepared - One can hope!
It was a huge amount of fun to build it and set everything up. Was even more satisfying installing it into an uprated Herald. You can imagine the impact at the time, when boy racers in the XR3is and similar couldn't keep up with a Herald I did have a peer inside the cylinder head via the oil filler and things did look greasy inside, rather than crusty, impressively - I'm sure that might change once the head is off though.
I know the engine had been replaced not too long before the storage, so it's not quite the full 100+K worth, I think(?) It may have also been slightly storage prepared - One can hope!
I had a Herald into which I fitted the engine & gearbox from my wrecked '67 Corolla.
It was probably similar level of tune to yours : 3/4 race cam, extractors, 40mm DellOrto carbs, etc.
Lots of fun - the only problem was that the diff ratio was fine for the cast-iron boat anchor it came with, but less than ideal for an engine that had no power or torque below 4000 RPM.
OP - nice car, have fun with it!
//j17 said:
Another supplier for the list - James Paddock. Never had any issues with the quality of their sttuff (unlike some others) and usually cheaper than the biggest boys.
.
Another vote for James Paddock I buy a fair few bits for the TR6 never a problem and always a quick turnaround, and a bit cheaper than Moss and Rimmer.
Haltamer,
On engine rebuilding: https://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/performanc...
And while I've no argument with any of the advice here, a specialist is a specialist:
https://forum.tssc.org.uk/forum/1-technical/
OR
https://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.p...
OR
https://www.clubtriumph.co.uk/forums/forum/22-triu...
Good luck!
John
On engine rebuilding: https://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/performanc...
And while I've no argument with any of the advice here, a specialist is a specialist:
https://forum.tssc.org.uk/forum/1-technical/
OR
https://sideways-technologies.co.uk/forums/index.p...
OR
https://www.clubtriumph.co.uk/forums/forum/22-triu...
Good luck!
John
Nice project car, restored mine 10yrs ago, been in storage ever since. It'll be coming out when I retire for a thorough going over and respray in the correct colour. She's a 69 mk3 with overdrive, it should be the bluey green colour, but I ordered royal blue which is wrong. But it's in one piece and has only done 35k from new.
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