Motor Taxation

[Ann Manning]

Good Morning, I am Ann Manning, Managing Director of A Manning UK Limited insurance brokers who handle the approved TVR Insurance Scheme. You will recall that I was a frequent vistor to your site when the Independent Insurance Company crashed.

There are a number of important pieces of legislation coming up and I thought you may like to be kept informed.

The first relates to Vehicle Road Taxation. A new system has come into force regarding the expiry of road tax. From now if you have not renewed your road tax on the date of expiry the computer is searched at DVLA and you can incur an automatic fine of £80 unless you can satisfy DVLA that there is a genuine reason why this has not been purchased. The fine increases with the period of time.

This is important for A Manning UK Limited as we must ensure that either your cover note or annual certificate is forwarded to you the day we receive payment so that you can comply with the new leglislation.

In addition when you sell your vehicle and send the slip to DVLA this will now be acknowledged so you are not left in the abiss as to whether this has been received or not.

If it is helpful I will post the other "bits and pieces" relating to legislation or claims on your website. If this is not helpful or you feel it is an intrusion please let me know on [e-mail].

I am also happy to answer any insurance queries you may have.

Ann Manning

[N4 SPY]

I appreciate the update thank you. More info like this is always useful.

Cheers

>> Edited by N4 SPY on Thursday 8th January 12:46

[.Mark]

Yes please Ann keep them coming.

[zumbruk]

I think this is an excellent idea - keep it up. All too often insurance brokers are seen merely as organisations whose sole function is to collect money!

[simpo two]

What a pity DVLA never thought to collect the money by Direct Debit (like TV licences). But then of course they'd never get any money in fines...

[and]

Yes, and they're very hot on it already and if you are keeping your vehicle off the road the SORN form needs to be submitted the day your tax expires or you get a £25 "early payer" fine, or £50 fine.

[gbbird]

i think these fines are utterly ridiculous! Just another way of hitting the motorist where it hurts.

[IPAddis]

Ann Manning said:

...we must ensure that either your cover note or annual certificate is forwarded to you the day we receive payment so that you can comply with the new leglislation.

MOST insurance companies do this anyway! Having said that, most insurance companies also charge more.

Thanks for the useful info.

Ian A.

[RichardR]

Ann Manning said:

If it is helpful I will post the other "bits and pieces" relating to legislation or claims on your website. If this is not helpful or you feel it is an intrusion please let me know on [e-mail].

Thanks for the information Ann; it is useful to be kept up-to-date with legislative changes and I, for one, would be interested in further postings of this nature.

[anonymous-user]

simpo two said:

What a pity DVLA never thought to collect the money by Direct Debit (like TV licences). But then of course they'd never get any money in fines...

They can't because they need to see ins cert / MOT etc..........

As discussed previously, this is a just another way to hit the law abiding motorist in the pocket because it's too difficult to chase those who don't bother with road tax (or Insurance & MOT) at all.

[squirrelz]

But isn't there an database that can be checked to ensure you have insurance, and I'm sure that something similar is being planeed for MOT tests.

Then you could have a direct debit set up, and tax disk posted to your registered address.

[pbrettle]

Firstly - thanks Ann for the update - I am a customer and it is good to know that you keep abreast of these things and inform your customers accordingly. Thanks again.

Secondly - what is all this crap about "hitting the motorist where it hurts"? Right, lets get a few things straight - you get a reminder for the Road Fund License 3-4 weeks before it expires. The fine doesnt start until 4 weeks AFTER the expiry of the license. That means you have 7-8 weeks to sort it out.... that has to be enough for the majority of people to remember. Granted there are going to be some people who are unable (hosiptal, out of the country etc) - but there is a system to allow you to prove this and avoid the fine.

It is a legal requirement to keep your V5 information correct and now they are enforcing the Road Fund License - we have all had to pay it in the past and there is no difference now - except they are putting a time limit and a fine accordingly.

The reason for this is that it is easier to address this side now as it is a simple one to ensure that motorists have insurance and a valid MOT - Ok, so it doesnt cover 100% of eventualities, but it deals with quite a few. Taking into account there are estimated to be 1M untaxed / uninsured drivers in the UK, this has got to be a step forward to ensure that this number is reduced.

And for the record, a central MOT registration system is being implemented. As for insurance? Well this is open to the suppliers of the insurance in the first place - at the moment they dont want to share and positively REFUSE to share information on who is insured and who isnt..... so, if you wanted to reduce the number of untaxed / uninsured / dangerous vehicles in the UK - what would you do?

You all pay it - so shut up and get your facts right first...

[Ann Manning]

In response to Ians comment, unfortunately most insurance companies are in such a mess that we wait forever for the documents. However with or new regulatory body, the FSA coming in board soon, there will be a set time limit in which documents are sent to you and if brokers and compannies do not comply with the conditions/rules we can be struck off!!

Technology is getting better and eventually all brokers will use edi which means when YOU say YES we can download the documents and post them to you that night including motor certificates. We are looking at transacting the scheme this way now.

Ann Manning

[squirrelz]

pbrettle said:

As for insurance? Well this is open to the suppliers of the insurance in the first place - at the moment they dont want to share and positively REFUSE to share information on who is insured and who isnt..... so, if you wanted to reduce the number of untaxed / uninsured / dangerous vehicles in the UK - what would you do?

I thought that had been sorted out - perhaps tonyrec or one of the other BiB could comment, but I was sure they could check now whether a car had insurance (see www.miic.org.uk/)
I seem to recall that the insurance companies couldn't just share the information because of the data protection act, and that legislation had to be introduced to enable them to do it.

[icamm]

Thanks Ann. Very useful information.

pbrettle said:

Secondly - what is all this crap about "hitting the motorist where it hurts"? Right, lets get a few things straight - you get a reminder for the Road Fund License 3-4 weeks before it expires. The fine doesnt start until 4 weeks AFTER the expiry of the license. That means you have 7-8 weeks to sort it out.... that has to be enough for the majority of people to remember. Granted there are going to be some people who are unable (hosiptal, out of the country etc) - but there is a system to allow you to prove this and avoid the fine.

Well to quote Ann's original message

Ann Manning said:

From now if you have not renewed your road tax on the date of expiry the computer is searched at DVLA and you can incur an automatic fine of £80

This does not say to me that there is a 4 week gap after the day you should have done it. So at most you get the 3 weeks of the DVLA notice and if you get stuck with a poor insurance broker/company (or someone there makes a mistake) you could easily have a problem and incur a fine. I had trouble getting my insurance documents in time for the TVR last time my road tax was due.

Or you could make an honest mistake - not drive the vehicle due to having others - tax it ASAP (could be a weekend or your away on business etc for a couple of days) and although you have complied with the law you still get fined!!!!!!

Now if you have actually got another month before the fine is issued then it is not a problem.

[pbrettle]

squirrelz said:

I thought that had been sorted out - perhaps tonyrec or one of the other BiB could comment, but I was sure they could check now whether a car had insurance (see www.miic.org.uk/) I seem to recall that the insurance companies couldn't just share the information because of the data protection act, and that legislation had to be introduced to enable them to do it.

Sorry, I painted a bad picture there - its improving and getting better every month. However, the systems just arent in place to provide accurate information. Its the same for the MOT and Road Fund License - the time delays in the "process" can mean that the system is rendered useless in many cases. For example, it can take upto a month for the Post Office to process a RFL payment, the DVLA admit that they can be upto 3 weeks out of date on THEIR processing and there is no central submission of MOT's..... couple that with change of registration and owner details and you have a potential nightmare.

The MIIC database will be useful in some cases, but it cant be and wont be for some time, a system that can be used to check each and every car - it will be used in the extreme cases and to cross-reference known offenders.... target the serious offences first and all of that.

Insurers are still not passing on the relevant information correctly or in a timely manner. They say alsorts of things and some are using the Data Protection Act. However, I am dismayed that the DPA has been used in two high profile cases (pensioners who died and Huntley) for the passing of information. The DPA is concerned with the storage, transfer and exchange of data held on people - it is supposed to be in a secure format (i.e. not everyone can access it), it is supposed to be used for legitimate purposes (i.e. what YOU agree to) and that it isnt passed to everyone and his dog (i.e. marketing etc). It doesnt prevent the exchange of data to relevant parties - such as the police. There are ways and means to share the data without breaking the DPA, which is what it is all about - ignorance breeds fear and doubt I am afraid....

[pbrettle]

icamm said:

This does not say to me that there is a 4 week gap after the day you should have done it. So at most you get the 3 weeks of the DVLA notice and if you get stuck with a poor insurance broker/company (or someone there makes a mistake) you could easily have a problem and incur a fine. I had trouble getting my insurance documents in time for the TVR last time my road tax was due. Or you could make an honest mistake - not drive the vehicle due to having others - tax it ASAP (could be a weekend or your away on business etc for a couple of days) and although you have complied with the law you still get fined!!!!!! Now if you have actually got another month before the fine is issued then it is not a problem.

Think about it for a minute - It can take upto 3 weeks for a Post Office to send the payment through to the DVLA anyway! So you could quite reasonably pay EARLY and if they pick out those who let their RFL lapse by one day - end up handing out £80 fines to 1/2 the population. Its not going to happen.

The DVLA will never admit this as it then becomes open to abuse again, but you should get your V11 renewal form 3 weeks before it is due (they say 2 weeks, but it sent at the 4 weeks trigger point, but via 2nd class post and hence allow 2 weeks for delivery). Then there will be a point at which the system will then re-check those who have left their RFL to lapse.... but not on the day that it does.

Oh, and we havent even mentioned that it takes upto 2 weeks for the DVLA to update their own records! So dont panic and have kittens - its not as bad as you think...

P.S. An insurance document should be readily available from your insurer - this should take a maximum of 3 days (1st class post). Remember the insurance cover note (not schedule!) can be anything - as long as it shows the car registration .... it doesnt even have to be your name!!! It also could expire the month after the tax is due..... as long as it is valid ON THE day of issuance of the RFL disk.... Though they might question you if it was, make it a couple of months at least....

I would be extremely suspicious of any insurer who couldnt provide a covernote that had the registration plate of the car.... it is actually insured?

It makes sense to be reasonable with your car bills - i.e. make sure that the RFL, MOT and insurance dont all fall on the same month.... spread them out and there will be no problem.... its just common sense really.

[apache]

Use me as a test case if you like I got my V11 and pinned it to the notice board intending to pay nearer the time (December)As you all know I'm flying on fumes right now and have had to use the car until I could pay it today so for the past 7 days have been untaxed. I'm not a pikey, scrote or criminal, just a bit skint and likely to be kneed in the nuts for the pleasure.

[ralph dodds]

pbrettle said:

It also could expire the month after the tax is due..... as long as it is valid ON THE day of issuance of the RFL disk....

I've done exactly this and taxed a vehicle on the 30th of the month with insurance that ran out on the 1st of the following month when the new certificate hadn't arrived. But does anyone know whether the same situation exists with MOTS? ie, does the MOT have to be valid on the day that the RFL commences or the day of issue of the RFL. One of mine is up at end of this month with the MOT expiring on the 29th. I believe that I can tax the car on the 28th using last years ticket (still valid on the day of issue) and then MOT the car in slower time in February before I use it again. Anyone any experience of this?

[simpo two]

Let's face it, co-ordinating road tax, insurance and MOT every year for every car is a bloody nightmare. Plus, we know that of each chunk of road tax the Govt gets, sod all goes towards the roads.
Surely it would be simpler to chuck road tax in the bin, sack everyone at DVLA, saving billions, and just stick it on fuel instead?
And while I'm on, what happens if the DVLA reminder fails to arrive? £80 from your hard-earned stash through no fault of your own, and several months' adminstrative grief to try to claw it back.
Just goes to prove that whoever makes the rules, wins.