Discussion
RE. TVR Layoff staff etc.
I'm sorry for the staff involved, but the fault lies at the feet of P.Wheeler, not listening to his customers.
The reason people like myself bought TVRs was not just because they were great performance cars, but also 'cos they were much cheaper than the competition (Porsche Boxster, 911, M3 etc). Given this saving we were happy to get individuality and put up with the shortfalls - quality!
Now that Chimaearas have swamped the landscape and have terrible residuals, people aren't buying them. The Cerbera was a great car but never sold in any decent numbers (again reliability a big issue).
The Tuscan price raise was ill-judged and they are still failing to deliver the quality necessary on that car.
All of the above issues have one central theme - quality - everyone knows it, but PW refuses to believe it. Only now he can't get away with it when a Boxster is £2k cheaper that a Chimaeara and a 911 is only £7k more than a Tuscan.
Now my Chimaeras were reliable, but thats luck, and I've seen as many Tuscans on recovery trailers as I've seen on the road.
Oh and no-one is buying Tamoras.....
A sad state I'm afraid (and one I am personally sad to see).
GR
Very sorry for all the staff at TVR, hope this gets resolved soon.
Quality, yes that's probably a major factor, although I've not had anything much to complain about in the 3 TVRs I've owned. Getting a good dealer who goes just that bit further, particularly on the Cerbera, certainly helps. Plus driving the cars regularly seems to work. For me, anyway.
The other thing seems to be that TVR have changed the game they are playing, whether deliberately or not. No more entry level 30k bread and butter model. In the short term they are obviously not filling up their capacity with orders for 48k Tuscans and the like, perhaps some of it is seasonal, who knows. The Tamora is ages away if at all, and didn't make many dealers that happy when they saw the price.
How about a GTO Cerbera, how about reviving the Griff with an amazing facelift. What about upping the ante on the Red Rose/tuning division? Things you can do quickly that would have us waving our chequebooks?
I too am sorry for the TVR employees, they work bloody hard at what they do, except for friday afternoons.
PW has achieved alot with what was an ailing company, and they are making some interesting cars, but the reliability is still shocking. The company needs a little external help with the direction it is taking, and needs to listen to those that buy it's cars. One thing TVR has been able to do for along time now is retain customers, I cant remember the number of times that people have said to me what I feel myself which is that I can't think of another car I'd rather have than a TVR. That is happening less now, and I don't know what TVR I'd have when I move on. the tuscan looks stunning, but suffers from the kind of build and reliability faults Henry Ford eliminated with the Model T, the Tamora has, to my mind, no redeeming features, least of all price which was to be it's trump card. I'd buy one for 20K, but they cant make it for that because PW wants to make engines like the big boys do. This is, I think, at the root of the problems TVR have.
They need to attain higher volume and profit levels from small high volume vehicles like Griff and Chimaera and at the same time learn the lessons on build and reliability. Ascari have done this with their new car starting from a position of far less experience. The engine building achievements are staggering, but their use is inevitably pricing TVR out of the market. They need to make the Tamora an elise chaser as was promised, mothball the engine until later, use an existing engine and get the cost down to the 22K mark. They will need a climbdown to do it , but with a redesign and a sensible price, they have an opportunity to position themselves as a serious contender for the future.
Now is decision Time Mr Wheeler, please don't let TVR join the growing list of failures, remember that in as much as TVR is your company, it is also something that every TVR owner feels part of, we are and want to stay as proud of the company that makes our cars as the Tifosi are of Ferrari's. We all applaud you for the what you have achieved with the company, especially the engine development, but pride comes before a fall. Make a reasonably priced entry level TVR and I'll buy one in addition to the one I have.
Dan
I think its all very sad, but surely everone knew something like this was on the cards. Its not really shocking news is it?????
I used to think PW was a genius, but after the last crop of new models (which frankly look like a dogs gonnads) and his inability to build reliability into cars, he must be a fool and completely to blame. In my view, its time to step aside Mr. Wheeler, and gets some new hungry blood at the top.
As to what Kate said about having a high proportion of return customers, I think ALOT of that has to do with the fact that the only way to get rid of a 2nd hand TVR is to p/x for a new one.
My tuppence for what its worth.
Edited by ShakMan on Friday 12th January 15:23
quote:How about they stick the good old Rover V8 in there. I reckon that the engine in a Griff 500 would cost TVR about £6k max. Drop that into the Tomato, and you've got a lightweight road rocket (not that it would need to be any quicker than the Griff anyway). Price it somewhere in the mid-twenties, and it'll sell in its thousands.
If the engine in a Speed 6 costs the price of an Elise to make, even the slightly simplified version in the Tamora must cost £15K+ to build.
I am very sorry to hear the news about TVR laying off workers. I think TVR need to re-think things, they should be looking to gain more customers so wouldn't it be an idea to have a sensibly priced entry level car with someone elses engine?
I currently own an S3, which is a cracking car, not as guttsy as a griff or cerb, but great value for money.
TVR should take a leaf out of lotus's book, you've only got to look at the Elise, which is a lot of car for £22k and surley must cost a fair bit to build with the ally chassis.
So resurect the S (or have somrthing similar)and use someone elses engine, make it sub £25k and don't let TVR go the same way as all the other great British car manufacturers.
"Gutted", for TVR and all the staff there who have produced some fantastic cars over the last 10 years or so.But may i say not surprised as any one reading "cebera" pages will know that as a new buyer of the marque things are not going well for us.The letter i sent to Mr P.W yesterday before we heard the worrying new sums up some of the comments already voiced, somehow i don,t think he will be surprised or impressed with what a new TVR owner has to say!I can also understand now why TVR want to rebuild my engine for a second time under warranty instead of my call for a new engine(s6)if they cost 20K a shot.But for the customer?
Lets hope this is just a glitch in an otherwise general growth ,but improved quality and a lower priced intro model is the way to go .
Edited by CERBY on Friday 12th January 23:14
Lets hope this is just a glitch in an otherwise general growth ,but improved quality and a lower priced intro model is the way to go .
Edited by CERBY on Friday 12th January 23:14 In GasBlaster's HO the fundamental problem is that TVR has become out of tune with its market. Probably because it makes cars that appeal intuitively to PW, and then simply assumes that customers will like them too. So far its worked,with the Griff and Chimp. Unfortunately this seems to have led to a TVR mindset that anything they produce, customers will snap up and put up with poor quality. Clearly not so! Companies that take their customers for granted play a dangerous game and cannot pull it off indefinitely.
In GasBlaster's HO TVR should swallow a little pride and steal a well-proven strategy from the more successful of its competitors - incrementalism. Rather than produce a completely new model, why not develop a proven one? This is what Porsche did with the 911, Lotus with the Esprit and Morgan with the ...er, Morgan. Caterham and AC did the same. Even the Ferrari F355 was based on a development of the antique 305. TVR did to a certain extent with the Griff. Why stop now? The Griff / Chimp range provides a superb base for continued development, the models are proven sellers and continued development would over time improve both quality and residuals. Imagine a carbon-fibre bodied, updated Griff, with a home grown engine, Porsche-perfect build quality and solid residuals. TVR could sell these animals for 911 money if the quality was right. Quality will only be right if the model is allowed to mature and develop incrementally, at the same time letting the experience curve reduce unit production costs. Dumping the current models and starting again with the Tomato and Tusker means that staff have to learn how to build the things afresh. Resources dedicated to learning how to screw Griffs together properly will be lost and quality will falter. At the same time existing customers feel somewhat disenfranchised and new customers pissed off with quality issues.
I suspect the problem with following a strategy of incrementalism is the personality of PW, who is probably a total innovator by nature. Nothing wrong with this, of course, but to win in the long term he needs to get it right every time, based purely on intuition. If he can do this, the right place to be is a casino, not a car factory.
GasBlaster has spoken.
Well what did TVR expect. I have seen this coming for a long time and have mentioned it previously on this board only to hear you TVR owners repeatedly convince yourselves how 'individual' and pleasing your car is. This may be the case but as people have already stated, the quality of TVRs are utter rubbish, the style of TVRs have gone from bad (chimp) to average (cerbera) to below average (tuscan) to complete horse manure (tamora) and the reliabilty has not even been addressed in my opinion by TVR. I even believe that they do not give a monkeys in regards to these factors. Did PW actually think he would sell any of those Tamoras. I guess he must have been spoilt by the quantity of mugs he thought was out there.
I'm not so sure that there is a single, over-riding reason why TVR are having woes at the moment - it strikes me that a combination of factors are impacting them:
(1) Clearly the mid-priced sportscar market is full of choice at the moment, TVR have steadily been moving up the market in terms of price over the last 10 years, whilst many other manufacturers have started to produce interesting coupes & ragtops in the 30K - 50K range. There are merits and de-merits to all, but most importantly, there is much more consumer choice in the segment.
(2) Residuals have taken a hammering recently for all manufacturers, but particularily TVR. Having lost less than 4K per year on my 1st 2 Chimps, losing more than 10K on my last one hurts - the cost of trade-in for a new model has easily doubled over the last 2 years.
(3) Reliability is still a touchy subject, but here we have to be honest, a TVR is not as consistently reliable as an Audi (for example). A handbuilt car, built in fairly low numbers is never going to be as reliable as a mass produced one, but there are ways to minimise the fail rate. Complex component-sharing is clearly one area (engines, braking systems etc.) as is manufacturing process (there should not be the need for level of re-work that there is at the factory) and quality control (links between salary and component failure, education, design for testing etc.)
(4) TVR's strategy confuses at the best of times - what do they want to be? It is a romantic ideal that a modestly resourced Blackpool outfit can produce a breadth of product on the scale of an international manufacturer backed by a billion dollar conglomerate. Most of the smaller manufacturers have a degree of focus (sub 25K stripped out racers a la Westfield, 75K exotica a la Noble & Ascari). Perhaps TVR would be better serving the higher end of the market and fully exploiting its recently aquired racing pedigree (Tuscans, GTs etc.) - the Tamora strikes me as a somewhat schizophrenic attempt to please all people which may end up satisfying no-one.
People have posted here requesting a sub 25K "re-birth of the S" TVR - I'm not sure that the economics are there to produce a competitive car for this sector (once again, its a crowded market space nowadays versus 10 years ago). I suspect that PW does not have the resources to develop an Elise in the same manner as Lotus, and one might argue that the sub 25K sector is even more fickle than the 30K - 50K sector in terms of reliability etc.
I salute TVR for their endeavours over the last 10 years that I have known of, desired, owned and enjoyed their products - I also hope that the current situation forces PW et al to question some of their assupmtions and help TVR mature as a manufaturer of provocative, engaging sportscars.
Sad news, I agree it's a combination of economics (ie residuals) and some strange product planning up at Blackpool over the last couple of years. I have always wondered why TVR have so much build complexity -- not on things like colour, trim materials where variety is the spice of bespoke car life but on engines, chassis and bodyshells. I really wondered about the wisdom of two cars as close in concept as the Chimp and Griff, but at least they both shared basic engines and chassis. Things have gone mad now -- I can't see the wisdom of 4 different engines in the 320-420hp range (Rover, Wet Sump SS, Dry Sump SS,V8) nor the need for a Tamora (although I like the shape) and a Tuscan. Surely a base spec Tuscan convertible for the old base price would have made more sense that a complete re-engineer. I also agree the comments about using a bought in power unit for the base car and leaving the £20k near race job for those who want the extra shove and are prepared for the reliability issues. I am certain that having 3 powertrain options on the Cerbie must yield next to zero incremental sales.
I suggest a more rational lineup would be Tuscan base (ie up to October) Targa at the old price, a full convertible of same (replace both Tamora and Griff), a red rose version of both and a Cerbie with the Speed Six red rose engine. Then how about a marginally revised £34k Chimp as the base car with a bought in (and unmodified thus low cost!) engine like the 300hp Ford Cobra V8.
Just my HO.
Personally though I would even lose the Tamora and just have 3 cars.
Cerbera 4.5
Tuscan (S6 or being agressive I would ditch the 6 cylinder and put either the AJP or Rover V8 into it)
Chimeara 4.5
This would maximise each model allow for more structured production, forecasting of sales and better production costs.
Any new models or replacements would use current engines or a bought in option - Mustang V8 as mentioned above or a smaller unit based around a V6.
(Now I heard somewhere that Chrysler make a nifty little V10) 
Edited by fourwheeldrift on Monday 15th January 17:13
Edited by fourwheeldrift on Monday 15th January 17:13 The thing about the Tamora is that they're not putting much emphasis on how fast it's likely to be. Looks aside (make up your own mind) if they can make this thing weight 900kg with 330bhp then it's going to be seriously fast (and much faster than Poxsters etc.)
The cars don't always market themselves (particularly if they look a bit odd 
)
) What TVR should do is take a look at Porsche and the 911, Porsche pride themselves with reliability. Just take a look at GT racing with the GT3 which was launched as a turn-key race winner, unlike the Cerbera which Martin Short had to develope from scatch. The 911 has been around for nearly 40 years. The Griffith is only 7 years old. I have always said lets sought out the existing models before launching the new ones. The AJP 4.5 still needs work done to be as good as the competition. Even the Ferrari is more reliable.
Answer to the above question on Ben, he is the so called PR man. The other main factor in the drop in sales is the appaling dealer network bar Hawthornes, HHC, Newtown and Fernhurst. Places like Henley Heritage are an absolute disgrace! No wonder if dealers treat customers like idiots the sales will fall.
I like the Tamora a lot, in that it is a compact convertible with a mighty heart -- much like my old Wedge! What you must admit is that it is likely to take most sales from the Tuscan, I don't think that it is really a Boxter Z3M alternative and TVR competes in its own and quite narrow niche. It surely would have made more sense to do a full drop top on the Tuscan rather than a new car from scratch. If the S6 is the engine of choice, TVR should put all its efforts into making it and making it well. It's really hard to justify a V8 as well. If we can all see that complexity is a bad thing why is it so hard for PW? I also humbly suggest that going to the expense of developing a largely new engine for the Tamora (wet sump, belt drive cams, etc) is also a recipe for poor reliability (has TVR ever launched a reliable engine, or instrument cluster for that matter?) and higher costs. All this depresses me as I am on the verge of buying another TVR and would buy a new one if I had more confidence in the product. As it is it will have to be another nearly new (and sorted) Griff/Chim 500.
The example of Porsche is a good one. Today's 911 may have little in common with even a 993 but it has plenty in common with a Boxter (up to and including the platform).
TVR could best improve its profitability by sorting out its complexity, maybe being a little less precious about buying in components like instruments, improving reliability (not unrelated to the first two) and driving down its warranty costs.
<Gripe Mode Off> My dealer experiences with the TVR centre have been very good so far and their hospitality at the motor show first rate. I love the TVR product and would hate to see any more problems.
The dealer network is one of the main areas that needs soughting out. Some good dealers lost their francise in the late 80's and early 90's in favour of the "Plate Glass, sell all, service nothing!" type. Because of the few rotten apples, the remaining good dealers have suffered. You only have to read through the TVR section of "Gassing Station" to learn of over charging and parts not fitted, or when they are fitted they are 2nd hand! Perhaps the people laid off at the factory could be employed over this period at the offending dealers to sought these problems out.
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