Tornado vs Emerald

[HRG]

Discuss

I'm not looking to start a flame war, but it's been suggested I fit a Tornado chip after having some work done on the cam and inlets on the Griff. Before I decide what to do I also want to consider the Emerald route, however I may never take full advantage of it... So what are the pros and cons of each and what are the benefits?

It's for road use and my main goal is to get more torque low down as opposed to loads of BHP at the upper end of the rev range.

[trackcar]

How do you mean you might never take full advantage of it? Do you never plan on putting your foot on the accelerator?

[oggs]

trackcar said:

How do you mean you might never take full advantage of it? Do you never plan on putting your foot on the accelerator?

Well he does own a Griff

[HRG]

trackcar said:

How do you mean you might never take full advantage of it? Do you never plan on putting your foot on the accelerator?

pffft The plan is to do the cam (it's getting a bit noisy anyway so I might as well take advantage of it) and have the trumpets and plenum "done" and that's about it I think. I'm looking for a balanced package of improvements without getting into the world of diminishing returns.

For road use I want a driveable package that removes any of the obvious limitations or restrictions in the original setup. Basically I want a bit more grunt

[V8 GRF]

I guess it comes down to what you want to spend.
The Tornado chip route will be cheaper as you're not ripping everything out and starting again as you would be with an Emerald set-up.
If you intend to do the Emerald route eventually then wait until you can afford to do that rather then spend money on the Lucas setupwhich will be removed at that point.

[450Nick]

A Tornado will certainly give you some benefit and many have gone for this option - it's a tried and tested easy mod which will throw up no surprises and most likely leave you happy with your setup.

The Emerald system really does rip out everything including your distributor and replaces it with a coil-pack system running in wasted spark format. There are quite a few of us with this system now so it is tried and tested, though there are so many more variables that you will more than likely encounter one problem or another as you go along. Being that it has so many variables, I'd say it's more for the serial tinkerer than the fit and forget type, most of us who run Emerald are forever tweeking and adjusting things with the laptop to get it all running just so. The benefits of the system are that it is capable of improving driveability and power throughout the rev range beyond that which a Tornado ever could due to the better spark and more accurate fueling. Due to these benefits, it is also able to tame very wild cams and enable them to be driven in traffic, making an H404 or H234 an option for the daily driver. It removes your otter switch, so fan control is handed to you via your laptop meaning an end to any otter switch problems, and likewise the stepper motor. This can be either removed completely or replaced with a different type one (cheap and easy to get hold of) which can again be controlled via the laptop to optimise cold starts, idle etc. It also supports 3 maps, so you can switch between them via a switch on the dashboard. This can be used for different maps to run different grades of fuel, adaptive/open loop mapping, race/economy/pops n bangs maps etc

Finally, if you do plan to take the car any further, and Emerald is much easier and therefore cheaper to remap to suit the new modification, making it more future proof. The price isn't wildly different if you fit the Emerald yourself (perfectly possibly if you can wield a soldering iron and have a bit of common sense) with the Emerald coming in at around £1K vs the Tornado's £600. As mentioned, there are quite a few of us running Emeralds now so there is a growing pool of knowledge on here if you require help with anything.

One thing I forgot to mention, the Emerald is designed as a racing ECU, and as such does not have specific catalytic converter nursing capability such as cycling the AFR as the Lucas does. It can pass an MOT (though you will probably need a map to suit) but is (I'm told) capable of passing an Cat MOT without the Cat if you have the patience to tweek the map to run for this purpose. It is easier and more fun however to just decat the car and find a friendly MOT tester

[HRG]

That's good info, thanks

Fitting isn't a problem but it's getting the badger going again afterwards. I've spoken to a couple of people who took a while to get it going reasonably again.

Can you download maps that other people have created?

Does it store just one map or can you switch them over without a laptop connected?

Decisions, decisions.

[Steve_T]

I'd be careful with the MOT thing as these days testers are scrutinised far more than they ever used to be. Finding a tame tester may get more difficult. I'd also add a further option Mark Adams offers which is mapped ignition using an OMEX unit. Interestingly he leaves the Lucas doing the fueling even though the OMEX system fitted could do it and there is no doubt a good reason for this. HarryW ran this setup very effectively on his V8S and might be worth a chat to also.

Steve.

[Bluebottle]

Steve_T said:

I'd be careful with the MOT thing as these days testers are scrutinised far more than they ever used to be. Finding a tame tester may get more difficult. I'd also add a further option Mark Adams offers which is mapped ignition using an OMEX unit. Interestingly he leaves the Lucas doing the fueling even though the OMEX system fitted could do it and there is no doubt a good reason for this. HarryW ran this setup very effectively on his V8S and might be worth a chat to also.

Steve.

This is the route I am going with my Griff, I've replaced the Lucas afm for the larger Bosch AFM and will use an Omex 150 or 200 for ignition timing.
The reason being is that the 14CUX with a mapped Tornado chip does a good job for fueling and staying with the AFM means it will always adjust to atmospheric/temp/altitude automatically. Something the Omex & Emerald systems can't do (even with a barometric pressure meter), as you tell them what the mass volume of air will be for each degree off butterfly opening - Any variation from your theoretical setting due to mechanical wear in components restrictions in the pipework or atmospheric variations and there cannot compensate for it so your car will go out of tune requiring a remap for the variation.
At least that's how I understand it, happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable.

[dbv8]

I would be interested in the Emerald conversion for this winter.
I guess it would be ideal for use with nitrous.
Timing could be retarded and extra fuelling as required.
Also be good fun to tweak settings at the dragstrip with use of the laptop.

[Scrooloose]

HRG said:

Does it store just one map or can you switch them over without a laptop connected?

Decisions, decisions.

Emerald K3 will give you three maps switchable on the fly without a laptop

[HRG]

Bluebottle said:

Steve_T said:

I'd be careful with the MOT thing as these days testers are scrutinised far more than they ever used to be. Finding a tame tester may get more difficult. I'd also add a further option Mark Adams offers which is mapped ignition using an OMEX unit. Interestingly he leaves the Lucas doing the fueling even though the OMEX system fitted could do it and there is no doubt a good reason for this. HarryW ran this setup very effectively on his V8S and might be worth a chat to also.

Steve.

This is the route I am going with my Griff, I've replaced the Lucas afm for the larger Bosch AFM and will use an Omex 150 or 200 for ignition timing.
The reason being is that the 14CUX with a mapped Tornado chip does a good job for fueling and staying with the AFM means it will always adjust to atmospheric/temp/altitude automatically. Something the Omex & Emerald systems can't do (even with a barometric pressure meter), as you tell them what the mass volume of air will be for each degree off butterfly opening - Any variation from your theoretical setting due to mechanical wear in components restrictions in the pipework or atmospheric variations and there cannot compensate for it so your car will go out of tune requiring a remap for the variation.
At least that's how I understand it, happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable.

So the Emerald route *could* make the car less driveable under different atmospheric conditions? I hadn't considered that...

[GreenV8S]

The Lucas 14CUX ECU seems to be relatively good at controlling the fuel. The most substantial disadvantage I can see from sticking with it is that there are very few people capable of mapping it (probably less than half a dozen in the country with Mark Adams being the only well known one). This means that you are tied in to a very small set of suppliers any time you need work done on the engine control system. The aftermarket ECUs can be mapped by anyone, you can even do it yourself if you want.

[trackcar]

HRG said:

Bluebottle said:

Steve_T said:

I'd be careful with the MOT thing as these days testers are scrutinised far more than they ever used to be. Finding a tame tester may get more difficult. I'd also add a further option Mark Adams offers which is mapped ignition using an OMEX unit. Interestingly he leaves the Lucas doing the fueling even though the OMEX system fitted could do it and there is no doubt a good reason for this. HarryW ran this setup very effectively on his V8S and might be worth a chat to also.

Steve.

This is the route I am going with my Griff, I've replaced the Lucas afm for the larger Bosch AFM and will use an Omex 150 or 200 for ignition timing.
The reason being is that the 14CUX with a mapped Tornado chip does a good job for fueling and staying with the AFM means it will always adjust to atmospheric/temp/altitude automatically. Something the Omex & Emerald systems can't do (even with a barometric pressure meter), as you tell them what the mass volume of air will be for each degree off butterfly opening - Any variation from your theoretical setting due to mechanical wear in components restrictions in the pipework or atmospheric variations and there cannot compensate for it so your car will go out of tune requiring a remap for the variation.
At least that's how I understand it, happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable.

So the Emerald route *could* make the car less driveable under different atmospheric conditions? I hadn't considered that...

I'd like to see you argue that one with any of the aftermarket ECU suppliers because of course every car running an aftermarket ECU drives like poo as soon as you go up a big hill. Is there someone sat somewhere dreaming all this rubbish up ?

[V8 GRF]

HRG said:

So the Emerald route *could* make the car less driveable under different atmospheric conditions? I hadn't considered that...

I actually took that to be a question rather than a statement of anything...?
I was hoping someone would answer it either way

Edited by V8 GRF on Thursday 18th September 15:13

[Steve_T]

V8 GRF said:

HRG said:

So the Emerald route *could* make the car less driveable under different atmospheric conditions? I hadn't considered that...

I actually took that to be a question rather than a statement of anything...?
I was hoping someone would answer it either way

Edited by V8 GRF on Thursday 18th September 15:13

Took the Cerb 2500m up in the mountains on the way to Monaco this year (similar setup to an Emerald in that it's throttle angle mapped) and as we climbed the tickover rpm dropped off (around 200rpm less than normal on the tacho at the highest points). The car worked and drove absolutely fine though, so I wouldn't factor that into your thinking. What the cerb has required is occasional tweaking of the map, the Emerald may or may not be the same on an RV8 I couldn't tell you. Had I the money in such a situation I'd be looking at a GEMS ECU setup by Mr. Adams - completely self learning once setup properly as I understand it, no roller time, nothing, just mod and drive is what I was told!

Edited by Steve_T on Thursday 18th September 17:27

[trackcar]

There's an aftermarket ecu i think called adaptronics which is all self-learning aswell .. I don't think they'll ever make rolling road mapping obsolete (at least i hope not!) but they do seem (on the face of it) to offer proper self-learn for both fuel and spark (effectively you issue a set of guidlines/framework for the ecu to work within and let it get on with it ..) so I'm guessing as long as your guidlines are fair then it seems an easy set-up. have to say i've never worked with one though so don't know for sure.

[HRG]

V8 GRF said:

HRG said:

So the Emerald route *could* make the car less driveable under different atmospheric conditions? I hadn't considered that...

I actually took that to be a question rather than a statement of anything...?
I was hoping someone would answer it either way

Edited by V8 GRF on Thursday 18th September 15:13

Hence the question mark I'm only here to learn about the options and plusses and minuses of each solution so I get the right one for me.

Would you like a bag on the head with that Sir?

[Vixpy1]

Bluebottle said:

Steve_T said:

I'd be careful with the MOT thing as these days testers are scrutinised far more than they ever used to be. Finding a tame tester may get more difficult. I'd also add a further option Mark Adams offers which is mapped ignition using an OMEX unit. Interestingly he leaves the Lucas doing the fueling even though the OMEX system fitted could do it and there is no doubt a good reason for this. HarryW ran this setup very effectively on his V8S and might be worth a chat to also.

Steve.

This is the route I am going with my Griff, I've replaced the Lucas afm for the larger Bosch AFM and will use an Omex 150 or 200 for ignition timing.
The reason being is that the 14CUX with a mapped Tornado chip does a good job for fueling and staying with the AFM means it will always adjust to atmospheric/temp/altitude automatically. Something the Omex & Emerald systems can't do (even with a barometric pressure meter), as you tell them what the mass volume of air will be for each degree off butterfly opening - Any variation from your theoretical setting due to mechanical wear in components restrictions in the pipework or atmospheric variations and there cannot compensate for it so your car will go out of tune requiring a remap for the variation.
At least that's how I understand it, happy to be corrected by those more knowledgeable.

Map sensor, TPS and Intake air temp sensor is the way to go, Far better than a simple air flow meter. Both Emerald and Omex can run these.

Mine is going aftermarket when i get back from Spa, first thing is to get rid of the Batch injection.

[Vixpy1]

trackcar said:

There's an aftermarket ecu i think called adaptronics which is all self-learning aswell .. I don't think they'll ever make rolling road mapping obsolete (at least i hope not!) but they do seem (on the face of it) to offer proper self-learn for both fuel and spark (effectively you issue a set of guidlines/framework for the ecu to work within and let it get on with it ..) so I'm guessing as long as your guidlines are fair then it seems an easy set-up. have to say i've never worked with one though so don't know for sure.

Its actually quite a nice little unit the Adaptronics. But as with most ecu's, the self learn function takes more time to set up than doing it properly.