precats and 500's

[gopher]

Hi all,

I've got 4.3 pre cat and would like to trace the history of it, the first thing being the 500 nose. I've a fairly good history file but it only goes back about 8-10 years and we're talking about a 16 year old car.

At some point a 500 nose was put on but I found out at the growl that TVR registered a number of Griff's in December '92 so they could build them without the cats, I don't know to what state of completion they would need to have been to have been registered but mine was registered on 19th Dec 92.

I suppose my first question is if TVR were the first registered owners how long might it have taken for my car to have been sold to it's first (TVR ownership ignored) owner and is there a possibility that my 4.3 pre-cat could have left the factory with a 500 nose?

cheers

Paul

[JR]

gopher said:

is there a possibility that my 4.3 pre-cat could have left the factory with a 500 nose?

Nice theory but I would say no. In the main 500 noses were put on for accident repair, styling or to improve cooling in that order. As an aside there is one 500 pre-cat.

[JR]

gopher said:

I found out at the growl that TVR registered a number of Griff's in December '92 so they could build them without the cats

You've been mis-informed/misunderstood. The chassis numbers had to be inproduction; TVR was not recorded as the first owner and reg numbers were not allocated.

[Barreti]

That's quite interesting JR, because I have also heard the story about TVR pre-registering or pre-building the pre-cat cars because of the impending cat legislation. It makes more sense the way you put it though.

Gopher - there was a period when there was no such thing as a replacement front end for a pre-cat car, so 500 front ends were used for repairs.
My car is also a 4.3 precat with a 500 front end. So we're in an even more unique little club. I know my front end was replaced after a parking manouvre where the Griff lost in a fight with a transit towbar!

Edited by Barreti on Monday 11th August 15:56

[gopher]

JR said:

Nice theory but I would say no. In the main 500 noses were put on for accident repair, styling or to improve cooling in that order. As an aside there is one 500 pre-cat.

Thanks, didn't know about the 500 pre cat.

JR said:

You've been mis-informed/misunderstood. The chassis numbers had to be inproduction; TVR was not recorded as the first owner and reg numbers were not allocated.

I think this is the basis to my query but the secondary question is how far into the production cycle can you register a car? If TVR had (say) 100 chassis in some sort of state of completion and had chassis numbers allocated cuold they not register them then? I don't have the original registration docs and yes I could well have been miss-informed it was one comment from another owner at the growl although with having a late registered pre-cat Griff I have to say it had crossed my mind.

My hope was that I could have had a 4.3 pre-cat with a 500 nose that had not been replaced but it would seem not.

Thanks for the replies, does anyone have any records of the cars that left the factory?

Thanks

Paul

[gopher]

Barreti said:

That's quite interesting JR, because I have also heard the story about TVR pre-registering or pre-building the pre-cat cars because of the impending cat legislation. It makes more sense the way you put it though.

It's the first time I had heard it (this weekend), it certainly sounds plausible but I don't know, it would be good if someone from the factory at the time could remember and post up either way.

Barreti said:

Gopher - there was a period when there was no such thing as a replacement front end for a pre-cat car, so 500 front ends were used for repairs.
My car is also a 4.3 precat with a 500 front end. So we're in an even more unique little club. I know my front end was replaced after a parking manouvre where the Griff lost in a fight with a transit towbar!

LOL - I think that sounds like what happened to mine, the chassis looks good and I've had it inspected so I'm sure it's just a cosmetic thing, it was just a hope that it may have left the factory that way. When was yours registered?

[JR]

gopher said:

I think this is the basis to my query but the secondary question is how far into the production cycle can you register a car?

I'm not sure whether we are talking at cross purposes here. If by register you mean allocate a number plate then that cannot be done until the car is complete. What most peole mean in this context is the allocation of a chassis number to a chassis that is in production since this means that the car can then be built to the regs in place at that time. (I'm sure that TVR didn't bend the rules and that an abnormally large number of chassis really did begin production just before the deadline ;-) )

In the late 90s it was fashionable to have the 500 nose; for some people almost any reason to graft it on. Switch back if you like, it's your car.

[SI 4.3]

My Griff was registered on the 31/12/1992 to a TVR dealership Graypaul and was sold to its first private owner on the 19/1/1993. this was to insure TVR had complied to the government law regarding cats.
Simon.

[Barreti]

My first Griffith was registered 25/11/92
Just found a document which surprised me - it was registered under a reg I never knew. K57AGM

My current Griffith was registered 06/11/92
It was registered as K610SDX
Then became A1 FBV (Factory Big Valve!)
Then back to K610SDX
Now on H15 VBX or HIS V8 X if you squint

[gopher]

JR said:

gopher said:

I think this is the basis to my query but the secondary question is how far into the production cycle can you register a car?

I'm not sure whether we are talking at cross purposes here. If by register you mean allocate a number plate then that cannot be done until the car is complete. What most peole mean in this context is the allocation of a chassis number to a chassis that is in production since this means that the car can then be built to the regs in place at that time. (I'm sure that TVR didn't bend the rules and that an abnormally large number of chassis really did begin production just before the deadline ;-) )

In the late 90s it was fashionable to have the 500 nose; for some people almost any reason to graft it on. Switch back if you like, it's your car.

Thanks for that, I'm not sure what I'm taking about in all honesty (you may have noticed!) it was just that fuelled by the rumour that TVR had "Registered" (whatever that means) a number of vehicles at about the time mine was first registered I wondered how long it would be between "Registration" and completion - but I think you've answered that.

I'm quite happy with the 500 nose, I do actually prefer it but was hoping (naively it seems) that it may have been original.

Cheers

Paul

[gopher]

Just to update, my Steve Heath "TVR Griffith and Chimaera" manual has just arrived (Thanks TVRCC) and it seems Steve is also of the opinion a number of chassis were registered in 92 to beat the 93 Cat rules, from page 4 (Second edition)

Steve Heath said:

The 1993 production figures are interesting because the Griffith 4.x officially ended production in December 1992. However, this was more due to the impending catalytic converter legislation then anything else. The 1993 cars have chassis that were made and registered in 1992 and therefore did not need catalytic converters to be fitted

[Barreti]

So did Si4.3 have an owner before the 1st customer owner then?

What date would be the Registered Date on the documentation then - when the chassis was registered or when the car was registered for the road and given a number plate.

Is this getting a bit anoraky?

[gopher]

Barreti said:

Is this getting a bit anoraky?

I think it might be, but it was really just an innocent delve into the history of a car, it seems I may have purchase some tupperware and a thermos before I go much further

[FUBAR]

My old 4.0L precat also had a 500 nose put on after the previous owner rolled it down the drive into his garage.

Maybe rarer are precats with the original nose?

[gopher]

FUBAR said:

My old 4.0L precat also had a 500 nose put on after the previous owner rolled it down the drive into his garage.

Maybe rarer are precats with the original nose?

Could well be although to be fair there were a number of pre-cats at the growl with original noses and I only counted 3 (including mine) that appeared to be pre-cats with a 500 nose, although I know that's not really indicative.

What quite interesting (for me at least )is that 114 pre-cats were delivered in 93 despite production ceasing in Dec 92, that's a fair chunk of the total 243 Griffiths built (delivered?) in 93.

[SI 4.3]

Barreti said:

So did Si4.3 have an owner before the 1st customer owner then?

What date would be the Registered Date on the documentation then - when the chassis was registered or when the car was registered for the road and given a number plate.

Is this getting a bit anoraky?

I have a copy of the first registration document and as stated in my previous post the first registered keeper was Graypaul TVR dealership.The same thing still happens today to inflate say Ford Motor Co sales they will incentify the dealership to register the car to inflate end of year sales,however Tvr did not do this to improve sales it was to get round the incoming catalytic ledgistration.
Simon.

[LordGrover]

I don't have the first registration document for mine, but it's first service at 1,525 miles was 11 December 1992 for which the charge was £47.07.

[griffter]

gopher said:

Hi all,

I've got 4.3 pre cat and would like to trace the history of it, the first thing being the 500 nose. I've a fairly good history file but it only goes back about 8-10 years and we're talking about a 16 year old car.

At some point a 500 nose was put on but I found out at the growl that TVR registered a number of Griff's in December '92 so they could build them without the cats, I don't know to what state of completion they would need to have been to have been registered but mine was registered on 19th Dec 92.

I suppose my first question is if TVR were the first registered owners how long might it have taken for my car to have been sold to it's first (TVR ownership ignored) owner and is there a possibility that my 4.3 pre-cat could have left the factory with a 500 nose?

cheers

Paul

Gopher, whereabouts in South Wales are you? I'm in Chepstow and I'll have a look if you like. You can even compare your car to mine side to side. Mine was born with a precat nose, had a 500 nose when I bought it after a minor bump, and I had a precat section grafted back on. It'll probably be easy enough to see if it's had a nose section grafted on, but a lot harder to tell if it's been re-shelled. There are a few places on the shell where build dates etc are written though.

As an aside I'm sure one LHD export Griff (with cats) was built with a 4.3 engine but a 500 shell.

[gopher]

griffter said:

Gopher, whereabouts in South Wales are you? I'm in Chepstow and I'll have a look if you like. You can even compare your car to mine side to side. Mine was born with a precat nose, had a 500 nose when I bought it after a minor bump, and I had a precat section grafted back on. It'll probably be easy enough to see if it's had a nose section grafted on, but a lot harder to tell if it's been re-shelled. There are a few places on the shell where build dates etc are written though.

As an aside I'm sure one LHD export Griff (with cats) was built with a 4.3 engine but a 500 shell.

Hi Ben,

I'm in Bridgend and wouldn't mind taking a trip to Chepstow at some point, thanks. I didn't think to check to see if I could see if a new nose had been grafted on it's a good point, whereabouts would I expect to see a join?

[shpub]

Barreti said:

So did Si4.3 have an owner before the 1st customer owner then?

What date would be the Registered Date on the documentation then - when the chassis was registered or when the car was registered for the road and given a number plate.

Is this getting a bit anoraky?

The V5 has the date the car was registered for the road and allocated a number plate. Not the date that the chassis was allocated its VIN number. This has been a loop hole that a lot of circa 1972 cars have used to get round the car tax. Free car tax applies to cars that were built before the cutoff date and not the date they were registered and allocated a number plate. So some cars that hung around and were not immediately registered still qualify for free car tax because their build date is earlier.

In summary the VIN number effectively determines the regs that the car was built to and this meant the the "93" cars had 92 spec chassis and so didn't need cats. Nothing to do with the date of the V5 registration doc. The V5 registration doc and number plate date refer to when the car was registered with the DVLA and paid its first wad of car tax. The dates are usually quite similar but not always.

Cars are often registered to a dealer before being transferred to their first owner. Accounting processes and meeting year end targets are often the reason why. Some cars were registered to dealers as demos but then almost bought immediately. Sometimes they are registered and then transferred so that a personal plate can be used.