tvr's v. jap motors.
Discussion
Always wondered, could any of the tvr's possibly keep up with the skylines,scoobs and the evos, round a track or indeed everyday motoring. I don't mean in a straight line but into tight bends etc. My son has a skyline gtr r33 v spec. He was thinking of getting a tvr but I think it's a no no if you want to stay alive and drive fast. Appreciate comments.
No TVRs are crap really, they can barely stay on the road in a straight line, can barely keep up with anything on the roads and corner like a chavs stag night stretched limo. No driver aids, no airbags, you really wouldn't like them one little bit!
Twas being tounge in cheek!
Twas being tounge in cheek! Edited by spartacus on Friday 23 March 18:28
Edited by spartacus on Friday 23 March 18:28
I think your right, on a track i would be willing to have crack at the cars you have mentioned in my tuscan, but on the road it would be straight line only, down a country road these cars are evil,and self preservation tends to kick in fairly early. Will dust them in a straight line though for what it's worth.
I went to Oulton once with a friend, he had an FQ400. We were both running slicks and modified suspension. The FQ was about 5 to 10 seconds a lap slower than the Cerb and he went through one brandnew set of slicks where as the Cerb went on to do about another 3 trackdays on the same tyres. The fq just seamed to slide through the bends ala rallying style and blistered the tyres. 
Two major problems with a lot of the japanese cars:
1. When they go off boost and you lose all torque
2. They generally weigh quite a lot
Neither are particularly useful characteristics on a track. However, 4WD, surefootedness, etc. do all help.
In standard spec, I'd pick a modern Tiv on a track. Looks better, too.
On open lanes, etc. I'd not dare push the Blackpool Bath quite as hard... much smaller margin for error.
1. When they go off boost and you lose all torque
2. They generally weigh quite a lot
Neither are particularly useful characteristics on a track. However, 4WD, surefootedness, etc. do all help.
In standard spec, I'd pick a modern Tiv on a track. Looks better, too.
On open lanes, etc. I'd not dare push the Blackpool Bath quite as hard... much smaller margin for error.
I've never been overly impressed by the real world performance of the big-number ricers, the only exception being a Racing Developments EVO with over 650bhp that got the better of me at Spa (I was in my Cerbera 4.5). I'm also told he was on slicks.
No Skyline claiming 600-700bhp has ever lived with my 4.5 on a track - including in the wet at Donington where one would have thought the Skyline's 4WD and computers would have enabled a whitewash. I could carry at least as much speed through the corners, albeit with a four wheel drift, and simply pulled away on the straights. It only took one lap to lose him. Was he lying about his BHP? I dunno - under the hood certainly looked like he'd blown a fortune on it.
I once pushed a Subaru around a long sweeping bend leaving a motorway whilst in my Mk1 Tuscan on a wet day. I had enough grip and power to pass him around the outside but backed out of the gas as I saw the Subaru starting to oversteer (which he caught).
I've only driven a few 4WD ricers, the most powerful semi-stock one being an FQ340. I thought it was wheezy and an understeering nightmare - unless I drove it like a rally car ....which then cooked the tyres. I just found it frustrating.
Are ricers faster point to point? I think it depends completely on the driver's limits and their common sense in the conditions. TVRs are lighter and for the last 10 years, all the serious ones have packed well over 300bhp/tonne. They have huge brakes too. TVRs are very sensitive to having their geometry set correctly and will handle like damages shopping trolleys if neglected. Mk1 Tuscans are the trickiest of all to drive really fast and take the most practice, but they can be mastered.
So to turn the question around, what EVOs/Skylines/Scoobies can keep up with a TVR? So far a slick-shod highly modified EVO is the only example I have seen.
No Skyline claiming 600-700bhp has ever lived with my 4.5 on a track - including in the wet at Donington where one would have thought the Skyline's 4WD and computers would have enabled a whitewash. I could carry at least as much speed through the corners, albeit with a four wheel drift, and simply pulled away on the straights. It only took one lap to lose him. Was he lying about his BHP? I dunno - under the hood certainly looked like he'd blown a fortune on it.
I once pushed a Subaru around a long sweeping bend leaving a motorway whilst in my Mk1 Tuscan on a wet day. I had enough grip and power to pass him around the outside but backed out of the gas as I saw the Subaru starting to oversteer (which he caught).
I've only driven a few 4WD ricers, the most powerful semi-stock one being an FQ340. I thought it was wheezy and an understeering nightmare - unless I drove it like a rally car ....which then cooked the tyres. I just found it frustrating.
Are ricers faster point to point? I think it depends completely on the driver's limits and their common sense in the conditions. TVRs are lighter and for the last 10 years, all the serious ones have packed well over 300bhp/tonne. They have huge brakes too. TVRs are very sensitive to having their geometry set correctly and will handle like damages shopping trolleys if neglected. Mk1 Tuscans are the trickiest of all to drive really fast and take the most practice, but they can be mastered.
So to turn the question around, what EVOs/Skylines/Scoobies can keep up with a TVR? So far a slick-shod highly modified EVO is the only example I have seen.
Scoobies, Evos, Skylines etc they always appeared to me at least, to be a car for people who like safe performance without too much of a risk of cashing your chips in on any one occasion.
The idea of a TVR to me is, to paraphrase Clarkson, its a car that assumes you can drive and you can drive well and thats one of the things I like about them!
I very much doubt that a stock ricer, barring that NSX Type R, would come close to a TVR of a similar age!
The idea of a TVR to me is, to paraphrase Clarkson, its a car that assumes you can drive and you can drive well and thats one of the things I like about them!
I very much doubt that a stock ricer, barring that NSX Type R, would come close to a TVR of a similar age!
i race a guy claiming his skyline had 500bhp on the quarter mile in my standard T350 and beat him and my friend a EVO fq 340 by a considerable gap!
at knockhill- very twisty track and hard on brakes etc i beat a school of modified evo's scoobs and lotus's and m3's in the dry AND WET!!!! only modification being nitrons
these jap motors dont handle as well as they are made out to! my TVR handles like a gokart
at knockhill- very twisty track and hard on brakes etc i beat a school of modified evo's scoobs and lotus's and m3's in the dry AND WET!!!! only modification being nitrons
these jap motors dont handle as well as they are made out to! my TVR handles like a gokart
As JSG said though, those chap rockets are more like space stations when it comes to weight and weight is always the killer!
I must admit, for a bit of safe fun, an old EVO can be a real hoot, but Ive never spoken to one TVR owner that said they had been beaten by a Jap-taxi
Funnier still was in the Wedge forum, one of the lads went along to a relay type drag race in a 350i FHC and beat a guy in a Skyline apparently putting out 495bhp not once, but TWICE
Lovely
I must admit, for a bit of safe fun, an old EVO can be a real hoot, but Ive never spoken to one TVR owner that said they had been beaten by a Jap-taxi
Funnier still was in the Wedge forum, one of the lads went along to a relay type drag race in a 350i FHC and beat a guy in a Skyline apparently putting out 495bhp not once, but TWICE
Lovely
Stingray01 said:
Always wondered, could any of the tvr's possibly keep up with the skylines,scoobs and the evos, round a track or indeed everyday motoring. I don't mean in a straight line but into tight bends etc. My son has a skyline gtr r33 v spec. He was thinking of getting a tvr but I think it's a no no if you want to stay alive and drive fast. Appreciate comments.
What I want to know is - why do you ask and also, why do we care? I can remember thinking Hmmmm, instead of buying that Sagaris over there I could buy a jumped up Japanese saloon car that looks like it's just ram raided Halfords - NOT!
I should add that, however old your son is, he'll crash both if he's not used to a truly high performance car. It's just that in the Riceburner he'll have such an overconfident sense of his abilities that the impact will be very much harder when it comes.
Edited by Jappo on Friday 23 March 23:22
Edited by Jappo on Friday 23 March 23:25
Bosscerbera is right about geometry, this has to be right , look at the chassis on a TVR its more in line with race car technology.But at the same time that means the driver has to have some skills so secondary reserve parachutes are not included. If it does it all for you where is the reward in that . Like anything in life more you put in the more you get out . Take Non PAS cars hard work around town but reward on the open road.
Thing is with all these 4x4 ricer's they may have lots of power ,which then absorbed by the 4x4 system transmission loses , and the weight penalty for having that and on and off boost shenanigans. O.k that's great if you are using your car as a everyday tool in all weather half a sleep in a rush trying to get somewhere , but for a lot of us they are toys which come out when its nice .
Also with regards to track work ,4x4 is fairly pointless 90% of the time or F1 would be working hard to make it work.
Best place for 4x4 is in woods negotiating a corner with your left foot on the brake and the loud pedal in the floor and half a turn of lock .
Thing is with all these 4x4 ricer's they may have lots of power ,which then absorbed by the 4x4 system transmission loses , and the weight penalty for having that and on and off boost shenanigans. O.k that's great if you are using your car as a everyday tool in all weather half a sleep in a rush trying to get somewhere , but for a lot of us they are toys which come out when its nice .
Also with regards to track work ,4x4 is fairly pointless 90% of the time or F1 would be working hard to make it work.
Best place for 4x4 is in woods negotiating a corner with your left foot on the brake and the loud pedal in the floor and half a turn of lock .
...and Rum Runner is right too!
I was told by a dyno operator that the trans losses on a Skyline are something like 30%. Factor that in with the weight of them and it's not difficult to see why 600-odd horsepower doesn't go very far.
I HATE electronics - driver aids are like 'cheats' on video games. There's no skill in getting from A to B. Where's the fun in that?
I was told by a dyno operator that the trans losses on a Skyline are something like 30%. Factor that in with the weight of them and it's not difficult to see why 600-odd horsepower doesn't go very far.
I HATE electronics - driver aids are like 'cheats' on video games. There's no skill in getting from A to B. Where's the fun in that?
Rum Runner said:
Also with regards to track work ,4x4 is fairly pointless 90% of the time or F1 would be working hard to make it work.
4x4 is banned in F1. I say this cos I have no doubt that were it not, F1 would have made it work and they'd all have it, just as they made auto boxes work, just as how almost every year the rules change to slow the cars down but by end of season the cars are going faster than ever.
Can I go back to this 'Japanese cars and Passion' thing though. I've owned British cars all my life and still do. My MX5 is the first Jap car I have ever owned. I used to fully subscribe to the 'passionless' thing, but I changed my mind some time ago.
All of my British cars always fell apart around me. My MG RV8, which I bought for certain reasons, is a right load of junk tbh. I mean, considering it was built way after the MX5 hit the market, why does it still take 2 people and 5 minutes to drop the roof? I was fully aware that the RV8 is an MGB built in the nineties, and I see it as an alternative to a Morgan, but I still reckon a well prepped 130 brake early 60's MGB would whup its hide down the lanes.
TVR did not enjoy a great reputation for build quality. Rover continued to sell cars with the awful K series engine right to the very end. Thing is, would this happen had their been any real passion and integrity built into these cars?
Do we really think that the Japanese (and for that matter, the Germans) are passionless when it comes to building cars? How do you build cars that work well out of the box, and continue to do so for decades without having a tremendous amount of passion and enthusiasm behind it? How do you mass produce an engine that revs to 9k, and is said to have no known failures, without absolutely wonderful engineering going into the product?
This passion for getting it right obviously permeates through everything they produce, be it cars or white goods or ships that cross the globe. Same for the germans too, I reckon.
The Brits do well at making great looking cars, and giving their cars a certain 'something', but there seems to be no substance behind them. They seem almost fraudulent, to me.
Gives me no satisfaction whatsoever to say this, btw.
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