TVR Bashing on blatchat.com!!!
Discussion
See post pasted below - can anyone claim to have pasted a 964RS on a trackday so we can retaliate??
peter_964rs
Acolyte Posted - 8 October 2001 15:39
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Bazza, you knew I wouldn't be able to resist a reply.......
Which 911? They're not all created equal. I guess it must be the GT2, in which case it's a wonderful car, but an expensive one......
The 964RS is a great track car. In mine I have been overtaken by many Sevens on the track, but have also overtaken several, so I guess it all balances out in the long run. Plus I've overtaken loads of 911s, and been overtaken by loads, although few Ferraris (one F50 that I can remember) and zero TVRs. Those that wouldn't get out of my way, broke down within half a lap.
peter_964rs
Acolyte Posted - 8 October 2001 15:39
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Bazza, you knew I wouldn't be able to resist a reply.......
Which 911? They're not all created equal. I guess it must be the GT2, in which case it's a wonderful car, but an expensive one......
The 964RS is a great track car. In mine I have been overtaken by many Sevens on the track, but have also overtaken several, so I guess it all balances out in the long run. Plus I've overtaken loads of 911s, and been overtaken by loads, although few Ferraris (one F50 that I can remember) and zero TVRs. Those that wouldn't get out of my way, broke down within half a lap.
Remember that the 964 RS is a bit more tuned than a standard C2 - weighs a hundred and fifty kilos less, 10 more bhp, racing suspension etc.
It would be very useful on a track, although I'd expect a Tuscan or Cerbera 4.5 to give it some major grief.
Of course, for 35k a w**ker in a Porsche could buy a LHD 993 Twin Turbo 'Turbo 4' which posted a 0-100 time of 9.17 secs in 1994, and a 0-60 of 3.8 secs. I imagine it would be a tad soft for the track, but should still be a good match for a Tuscan.
Rgds
Domster
It would be very useful on a track, although I'd expect a Tuscan or Cerbera 4.5 to give it some major grief.
Of course, for 35k a w**ker in a Porsche could buy a LHD 993 Twin Turbo 'Turbo 4' which posted a 0-100 time of 9.17 secs in 1994, and a 0-60 of 3.8 secs. I imagine it would be a tad soft for the track, but should still be a good match for a Tuscan.
Rgds
Domster
This guy posts on the EVO forum as well, he's always TVR bashing on there.
IMO he's a complete ****, I've got a Chimaera so would probably give me a run for my money but my brother's RR Tuscan would piss all over a 964 RS 911.
They might be lighter and slightly more powerful than the standard carrera's but its all relative, they are shite to start with.
A few figures you might want to put out his flames with:
964 RS - Power = 260 BHP, Weight = 1250 kg, Power to weight ratio = 208 BHP/Ton.
from: www.0-100.it/porsche/964/rs3600/technical-data.htm
RR Tuscan - Power = 380 BHP, Weight = 1050 kg, Power to weight ratio = 362 BHP/Ton.
IMO he's a complete ****, I've got a Chimaera so would probably give me a run for my money but my brother's RR Tuscan would piss all over a 964 RS 911.
They might be lighter and slightly more powerful than the standard carrera's but its all relative, they are shite to start with.
A few figures you might want to put out his flames with:
964 RS - Power = 260 BHP, Weight = 1250 kg, Power to weight ratio = 208 BHP/Ton.
from: www.0-100.it/porsche/964/rs3600/technical-data.htm
RR Tuscan - Power = 380 BHP, Weight = 1050 kg, Power to weight ratio = 362 BHP/Ton.
I was in the same session as a 964RS at an airfield day last year. As you'd expect, my Griff 500 absolutely wasted the RS on the straights, but equally the RS was far superior under braking and around the corners. Now, the guy in the RS was a pretty handy driver, but the way that thing went around corners was bloody impressive.
Pete
Pete
Chimpboy...
It's things like traction that belie a 911's performance.
How do you think a 250bhp C2 gets from 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, whilst a 321 bhp BMW M3 needs 5.4???
Power, as the ads go, is nothing without control. And Porsches have been developed long enough to give the driver plenty of 'control'. In short, they make the most of what they've got, instead of shedding power in lurid wheelspins or tailslides.
I wouldn't write off the 964 RS on a race track, whatever I was in.
Rgds
Domster
It's things like traction that belie a 911's performance.
How do you think a 250bhp C2 gets from 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, whilst a 321 bhp BMW M3 needs 5.4???
Power, as the ads go, is nothing without control. And Porsches have been developed long enough to give the driver plenty of 'control'. In short, they make the most of what they've got, instead of shedding power in lurid wheelspins or tailslides.
I wouldn't write off the 964 RS on a race track, whatever I was in.
Rgds
Domster
quote:
How do you think a 250bhp C2 gets from 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, whilst a 321 bhp BMW M3 needs 5.4???
Urm, I'm not sure why you are asking me this when my post goes on about power to WEIGHT ratios.
An M3 weighs about 1500kg's, I can't be bothered to check the exact weight because you don't specify which generation M3.
So lets get our calculators out again shall we
Nope, just kidding. So its power to weigh ratio thats important, not just power figures that you quoted.
I also dont quite agree with the figures you mention, a standard 996 C2 doesn't do 0-60 in 4.9, its about 5.5.
I'd have a guess that the power to weight ratios of a 996 C2 and the latest M3 are comparable.
Off to do my homework, report back later
Ok, here's what I found. I won't be vague because there are lots of M3's and lots of 911's. Also the weights quoted are the EU directive weights, which include petrol in the tank and a driver.
Very latest 996 911 Carrera Coupe (2 wheel drive), this is the very latest revised model with the Turbo style headlights and the increased displacement engine with added power over the 1st gen 996's.
Power = 320 BHP.
Weight = 1420 kg.
Power/Weight = 225 BHP/Ton.
0-62 = 5.0s
Very latest M3 Coupe.
Power = 343 BHP.
Weight = 1570 kg.
Power/Weight = 218 BHP/Ton.
0-62 = 5.2s
All data from BMW UK and Porsche UK websites.
So we have very similar Power to Weight ratios and very similar 0-62 times.
Edited by chimpboy on Monday 15th October 16:22
Very latest 996 911 Carrera Coupe (2 wheel drive), this is the very latest revised model with the Turbo style headlights and the increased displacement engine with added power over the 1st gen 996's.
Power = 320 BHP.
Weight = 1420 kg.
Power/Weight = 225 BHP/Ton.
0-62 = 5.0s
Very latest M3 Coupe.
Power = 343 BHP.
Weight = 1570 kg.
Power/Weight = 218 BHP/Ton.
0-62 = 5.2s
All data from BMW UK and Porsche UK websites.
So we have very similar Power to Weight ratios and very similar 0-62 times.
Edited by chimpboy on Monday 15th October 16:22
Hi Chimpboy - you are thorough to say the least!
I was using the 964 C2 as my example (as it was a 964 RS that we were originally talking about), which weighs around 1360 kgs or something, and does (according to Autocar, 0-60 in 4.9 secs with its 3.6 litre 250 bhp engine). The M3 at the time was the E36 shape (321 bhp was a bit of a giveaway there!) and I was using the Evolution as an example, as that clocked 5.4 secs 0-60 with Autocar. Granted, it weighs a bit more at around 1500 kgs. I think the figures show that the power/weight ratio is better for the M3.
Anyway, that wasn't the real point of the posting.
Power to weight ratios are all very well, but a finely tuned suspension set-up and other dynamic factors (braking etc) all play their part on the track.... mainly on the twisty bits.
I would suggest that a 964RS may be better set up than a new Tuscan in this department, as it had a great deal of racing R&D put into it (ie the Cup Challenge of the time). The Tuscans they race are the wrong shape if I remember ;-)
All I'm trying to do is suggest that power/weight is not the be all and end all... especially when out on the track.
Rgds
Domster
I was using the 964 C2 as my example (as it was a 964 RS that we were originally talking about), which weighs around 1360 kgs or something, and does (according to Autocar, 0-60 in 4.9 secs with its 3.6 litre 250 bhp engine). The M3 at the time was the E36 shape (321 bhp was a bit of a giveaway there!) and I was using the Evolution as an example, as that clocked 5.4 secs 0-60 with Autocar. Granted, it weighs a bit more at around 1500 kgs. I think the figures show that the power/weight ratio is better for the M3.
Anyway, that wasn't the real point of the posting.
Power to weight ratios are all very well, but a finely tuned suspension set-up and other dynamic factors (braking etc) all play their part on the track.... mainly on the twisty bits.
I would suggest that a 964RS may be better set up than a new Tuscan in this department, as it had a great deal of racing R&D put into it (ie the Cup Challenge of the time). The Tuscans they race are the wrong shape if I remember ;-)
All I'm trying to do is suggest that power/weight is not the be all and end all... especially when out on the track.
Rgds
Domster
Yeah I agree about the setup of the car being critical as well.
However I do think a Red Rose Tuscan with its suspension mods, uprated brakes is a superb weapon on a track. I've been in my brothers car and the grip, handling and braking are mega, with the extra performance in a straight line as well I think it would be more than a match for the porsche in question.
Seem to remember an article in Evo magazine a while back where the Tuscan RR absolutely annihilated the other cars in the comparison on the track, including Time Exposed to Danger, G force, lap times. From memory the only thing it didn't win was the braking and even then it was respectable.
Can't remember the exact cars used but I think one was a 911 of some sort.
Can't remember the exact cars used but I think one was a 911 of some sort.
Hi all,
Yeah, I think a Tuscan RR, even a normal one, would be more than a match for the 964 RS on a track. Any slight superiority (if any) that the 964 has would be blasted away by the Tuscan's sheer performance.
The only match for an RR (Red Rose) would probably be a TT (Twin Turbo) 911. The new 996 one, or the old 993. Of course, brand new prices are much higher than for the Tuscan.
Still, I think I'd buy an Ultima to be honest, chuck in a 450bhp Chevy and then give Tuscan drivers a proper run for their money ;-)
Power/weight ratio (for the chimpster) is about 460 bhp/tonne!
Rgds
Domster
Yeah, I think a Tuscan RR, even a normal one, would be more than a match for the 964 RS on a track. Any slight superiority (if any) that the 964 has would be blasted away by the Tuscan's sheer performance.
The only match for an RR (Red Rose) would probably be a TT (Twin Turbo) 911. The new 996 one, or the old 993. Of course, brand new prices are much higher than for the Tuscan.
Still, I think I'd buy an Ultima to be honest, chuck in a 450bhp Chevy and then give Tuscan drivers a proper run for their money ;-)
Power/weight ratio (for the chimpster) is about 460 bhp/tonne!
Rgds
Domster
My mate has a 964 RS, slightly modified to 285 BHP, and I have a modified 4.5 Cerbera LW. We are both similarly competent drivers, and have been on trackdays and trips to France together. Last year in France I saw 180 on the clock, he was still just behind me with about 170 showing. The Cerbera was pretty scary at that speed, his was very stable. On the straights on trackdays I could pull away from him, but absolutely no chance round the corners. Depending on the track I would put my money on the RS putting in the quickest laptimes. His one is 10 years old with 100K miles on the clock, and refuses to go wrong. I won't comment about my Cerbera......
quote:
Power to weight ratios are all very well, but a finely tuned suspension set-up and other dynamic factors (braking etc) all play their part on the track.... mainly on the twisty bits.
I would suggest that a 964RS may be better set up than a new Tuscan in this department, as it had a great deal of racing R&D put into it (ie the Cup Challenge of the time). The Tuscans they race are the wrong shape if I remember ;-)
All I'm trying to do is suggest that power/weight is not the be all and end all... especially when out on the track.
I agree
The 964RS is probably one of the best Porsches for the track, stripped out no creature comforts etc. and chassis and suspension suitable for the track and I would say would be more than a match for a TVR Tuscan
I regulary post on the EVO forum and Pete_964RS is obviously passionate about his Porsche like we all are about are cars.
He is a pretty good driver I understand and I would have thought most of the circuit racing he has done has been of trackdays etc. where there are good drivers like Pete and crap ones like me.
The recent Autocar report tested a Tuscan S I think an the drivers all more or less said the car was unsuitable for the track and was more suited to the road. It did post a fast time in that report but dropped to mid table as the report was about the best drivers car. Even the Mini Cooper beat it as a drivers car even though it posted the slowest time.
Why not challenge him to a race that way you will know for sure.
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