Discussion
On the specific subject of the Speed 6 engine, it would appear that NS has come to the opinion that some investment is needed so has got Ricardo to work on it. This can only be a good thing. They will also build it which, from a Factory point of view, has got to be cost effective.
The one asset that TVR has, apart from the badge, is the Sp6. The design costs are all gone so to abandon it would be a bit silly. I've driven many Sp6 engined cars, as well as RV8 and Ford V6 and it really is a case of chalk and cheese and cheese. I can, however, see why many people on these forums prefer the RV8 but, if you like the Griffith with the RV8, the solution is quite simple. Buy one.
The Sp6, under Laurence Tomlinson's racing team, became as reliable as most others in the pit lane. With the extra investment of Ricardo, perhaps the criticisms laid at its door will be a thing of the past. Certainly I've heard many reports of >10,000 miles pa out of current Sp6 engines without problems.
I like the AJP8. It's a superb engine. It's the best that has ever been fitted to a TVR, but it is tremendously expensive, would be a niche model and would require a fair bit of investment to get it through the emissions tests.
I love the Speed 6 engine. It's a real sports car power plant. It also comes with the most delightful cluth I've ever had the joy of using. It is a little cammy, but to suggest this is a fault and not a bonus is a bit strange.
After the shock of the closure and the resentment of the loss of jobs, I've got to say that I can see the logic of some of the plans NS has shared with us. When we know the rest - Bertone is just speculation at the moment - perhaps it will all come clear.
But let's not go silly about the RV8. It was a nice engine - I've got one - but it is yesterday's, well, the day before Friday of last week's - technology. So why buy in a V8 when you've got something better already? Perhaps it needed a bit of work. If so, then Ricardo will put that right.
How much better to see TVR at Le Mans next year (if true) with the Sp6 under the bonnet rather than some American lump.
I would point out that I know nothing about TVR's plans that I haven't read on press releases and in other publications so don't go reading into this post anything that not there.
The one asset that TVR has, apart from the badge, is the Sp6. The design costs are all gone so to abandon it would be a bit silly. I've driven many Sp6 engined cars, as well as RV8 and Ford V6 and it really is a case of chalk and cheese and cheese. I can, however, see why many people on these forums prefer the RV8 but, if you like the Griffith with the RV8, the solution is quite simple. Buy one.
The Sp6, under Laurence Tomlinson's racing team, became as reliable as most others in the pit lane. With the extra investment of Ricardo, perhaps the criticisms laid at its door will be a thing of the past. Certainly I've heard many reports of >10,000 miles pa out of current Sp6 engines without problems.
I like the AJP8. It's a superb engine. It's the best that has ever been fitted to a TVR, but it is tremendously expensive, would be a niche model and would require a fair bit of investment to get it through the emissions tests.
I love the Speed 6 engine. It's a real sports car power plant. It also comes with the most delightful cluth I've ever had the joy of using. It is a little cammy, but to suggest this is a fault and not a bonus is a bit strange.
After the shock of the closure and the resentment of the loss of jobs, I've got to say that I can see the logic of some of the plans NS has shared with us. When we know the rest - Bertone is just speculation at the moment - perhaps it will all come clear.
But let's not go silly about the RV8. It was a nice engine - I've got one - but it is yesterday's, well, the day before Friday of last week's - technology. So why buy in a V8 when you've got something better already? Perhaps it needed a bit of work. If so, then Ricardo will put that right.
How much better to see TVR at Le Mans next year (if true) with the Sp6 under the bonnet rather than some American lump.
I would point out that I know nothing about TVR's plans that I haven't read on press releases and in other publications so don't go reading into this post anything that not there.
Derek Smith said:
On the specific subject of the Speed 6 engine, it would appear that NS has come to the opinion that some investment is needed so has got Ricardo to work on it. This can only be a good thing. They will also build it which, from a Factory point of view, has got to be cost effective.
The one asset that TVR has, apart from the badge, is the Sp6. The design costs are all gone so to abandon it would be a bit silly. I've driven many Sp6 engined cars, as well as RV8 and Ford V6 and it really is a case of chalk and cheese and cheese. I can, however, see why many people on these forums prefer the RV8 but, if you like the Griffith with the RV8, the solution is quite simple. Buy one.
The Sp6, under Laurence Tomlinson's racing team, became as reliable as most others in the pit lane. With the extra investment of Ricardo, perhaps the criticisms laid at its door will be a thing of the past. Certainly I've heard many reports of >10,000 miles pa out of current Sp6 engines without problems.
I like the AJP8. It's a superb engine. It's the best that has ever been fitted to a TVR, but it is tremendously expensive, would be a niche model and would require a fair bit of investment to get it through the emissions tests.
I love the Speed 6 engine. It's a real sports car power plant. It also comes with the most delightful cluth I've ever had the joy of using. It is a little cammy, but to suggest this is a fault and not a bonus is a bit strange.
After the shock of the closure and the resentment of the loss of jobs, I've got to say that I can see the logic of some of the plans NS has shared with us. When we know the rest - Bertone is just speculation at the moment - perhaps it will all come clear.
But let's not go silly about the RV8. It was a nice engine - I've got one - but it is yesterday's, well, the day before Friday of last week's - technology. So why buy in a V8 when you've got something better already? Perhaps it needed a bit of work. If so, then Ricardo will put that right.
How much better to see TVR at Le Mans next year (if true) with the Sp6 under the bonnet rather than some American lump.
I would point out that I know nothing about TVR's plans that I haven't read on press releases and in other publications so don't go reading into this post anything that not there.
The one asset that TVR has, apart from the badge, is the Sp6. The design costs are all gone so to abandon it would be a bit silly. I've driven many Sp6 engined cars, as well as RV8 and Ford V6 and it really is a case of chalk and cheese and cheese. I can, however, see why many people on these forums prefer the RV8 but, if you like the Griffith with the RV8, the solution is quite simple. Buy one.
The Sp6, under Laurence Tomlinson's racing team, became as reliable as most others in the pit lane. With the extra investment of Ricardo, perhaps the criticisms laid at its door will be a thing of the past. Certainly I've heard many reports of >10,000 miles pa out of current Sp6 engines without problems.
I like the AJP8. It's a superb engine. It's the best that has ever been fitted to a TVR, but it is tremendously expensive, would be a niche model and would require a fair bit of investment to get it through the emissions tests.
I love the Speed 6 engine. It's a real sports car power plant. It also comes with the most delightful cluth I've ever had the joy of using. It is a little cammy, but to suggest this is a fault and not a bonus is a bit strange.
After the shock of the closure and the resentment of the loss of jobs, I've got to say that I can see the logic of some of the plans NS has shared with us. When we know the rest - Bertone is just speculation at the moment - perhaps it will all come clear.
But let's not go silly about the RV8. It was a nice engine - I've got one - but it is yesterday's, well, the day before Friday of last week's - technology. So why buy in a V8 when you've got something better already? Perhaps it needed a bit of work. If so, then Ricardo will put that right.
How much better to see TVR at Le Mans next year (if true) with the Sp6 under the bonnet rather than some American lump.
I would point out that I know nothing about TVR's plans that I haven't read on press releases and in other publications so don't go reading into this post anything that not there.
Great post, I too would be sorry to see the demise of a straight six engine in the TVR. V8s are OK but the straight six is perfectly balanced and an easier configuration to obtain high rev limits with (and hence high power without huge size).
I would love to know a bit more about the S6 and how it compares to other lumps. For example, how heavy is it compared to, say, an M3 engine with similar power output? How much bigger/smaller is it than other similar lumps? What is the big advantage (other than, maybe, initial cost) of using the S6 rather than buying in an M3 engine??? I'd love to read up on this if anybody knows of any good links....
It would be great if the S6 can be made as reliable as, say, the BMW engine. I suspect it's already pretty close - many M3s need new engines at approx. 50K miles..... so personally I think TVR are right to stick with it.
BTW I can totally see why people love the V8s too, it is a different driving experience, and just as valid. If possible, TVR should aim to cater for both categories, S6 option for best power/weight, V8 for more torque and that 'effortless grunt' experience. As to which V8 to buy in, sorry to keep on about BMW, but why not copy the example set by Morgan with the Aero 8....?
Cheers,
Jerry
Derek Smith said:
Certainly I've heard many reports of >10,000 miles pa out of current Sp6 engines without problems.
Yep good post Derek
I drove an old Cerb the other day with 53K on the clock and no rebuild and whilst it was tired it still howled nicely.
I believe the main reason that the V8 is still mooted by the forums is because the poor old owners have been the development engineers on this engine and at their own cost in some cases, many horror stories on this.
If the SP6 had been as reliable as the RV8 out of the box, I wonder if the forums would have been quite so keen on the V8 and sales much improved.
A Straight Six engine, no matter how modern, will always be perceived as a retrograde step from a Vee Eight engine, no matter how old.
Had TVR gone from four cylinder engines to straight sixes that would have been seen as progress but from a V8 to a S6 was always going to be seen as a step in the wrong direction.
May not be logical but there you are human nature.
Then add on the Speed Six poor reliability - double whammy!
Ricardo
Had TVR gone from four cylinder engines to straight sixes that would have been seen as progress but from a V8 to a S6 was always going to be seen as a step in the wrong direction.
May not be logical but there you are human nature.
Then add on the Speed Six poor reliability - double whammy!
Ricardo
Edited by Ricardo Bertone on Saturday 28th October 13:50
jerrytlr said:
Great post, I too would be sorry to see the demise of a straight six engine in the TVR. V8s are OK but the straight six is perfectly balanced and an easier configuration to obtain high rev limits with (and hence high power without huge size).
I would love to know a bit more about the S6 and how it compares to other lumps. For example, how heavy is it compared to, say, an M3 engine with similar power output? How much bigger/smaller is it than other similar lumps? What is the big advantage (other than, maybe, initial cost) of using the S6 rather than buying in an M3 engine??? I'd love to read up on this if anybody knows of any good links....
It would be great if the S6 can be made as reliable as, say, the BMW engine. I suspect it's already pretty close - many M3s need new engines at approx. 50K miles..... so personally I think TVR are right to stick with it.
BTW I can totally see why people love the V8s too, it is a different driving experience, and just as valid. If possible, TVR should aim to cater for both categories, S6 option for best power/weight, V8 for more torque and that 'effortless grunt' experience. As to which V8 to buy in, sorry to keep on about BMW, but why not copy the example set by Morgan with the Aero 8....?
Cheers,
Jerry
Perhaps they could follow Ferrari? Everyone says how great the V12 is but then buy the V6. Perhaps there's still room for the AJP8. I hope so.
Derek
I still don't see the speed six as proper six in the old sense of Straight sixes.
It sounds more like a 4 pot with an extra two cylinders rather than the nice smoothness of the Toyota/Vauxhall/BMW straight sixes. All due to the flat plane crank in the TVR lump.
A normal six is perfectly balanced, I believe the TVR one needs a crank damper as due to the flat plane crank they are not!!
They also do not burble in the same way as the old Triumph 2.5 sixes either.
I go for smoothness in a straight six or burbly low down power in the V8.
That's just me though
It sounds more like a 4 pot with an extra two cylinders rather than the nice smoothness of the Toyota/Vauxhall/BMW straight sixes. All due to the flat plane crank in the TVR lump.
A normal six is perfectly balanced, I believe the TVR one needs a crank damper as due to the flat plane crank they are not!!
They also do not burble in the same way as the old Triumph 2.5 sixes either.
I go for smoothness in a straight six or burbly low down power in the V8.
That's just me though
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 28th October 14:03
Ricardo Bertone said:
A Straight Six engine, no matter how modern, will always be perceived as a retrograde step from a Vee Eight engine, no matter how old.
Had TVR gone from four cylinder engines to straight sixes that would have been seen as progress but from a V8 to a S6 was always going to be seen as a step in the wrong direction.
May not be logical but there you are human nature.
Then add on the Speed Six poor reliability - double whammy!
Ricardo
Had TVR gone from four cylinder engines to straight sixes that would have been seen as progress but from a V8 to a S6 was always going to be seen as a step in the wrong direction.
May not be logical but there you are human nature.
Then add on the Speed Six poor reliability - double whammy!
Ricardo
Sorry, just can't agree with this. For many people who really know about cars - and I think the market that TVR is aiming at generally does - a Straight Six is definitely not a retrograde step from a V8.... a V6, on the other hand, would be.
jerrytlr said:
...
Great post, I too would be sorry to see the demise of a straight six engine in the TVR. V8s are OK but the straight six is perfectly balanced and an easier configuration to obtain high rev limits with (and hence high power without huge size).
I would love to know a bit more about the S6 and how it compares to other lumps. For example, how heavy is it compared to, say, an M3 engine with similar power output? How much bigger/smaller is it than other similar lumps? What is the big advantage (other than, maybe, initial cost) of using the S6 rather than buying in an M3 engine??? I'd love to read up on this if anybody knows of any good links....
It would be great if the S6 can be made as reliable as, say, the BMW engine. I suspect it's already pretty close - many M3s need new engines at approx. 50K miles..... so personally I think TVR are right to stick with it.
BTW I can totally see why people love the V8s too, it is a different driving experience, and just as valid. If possible, TVR should aim to cater for both categories, S6 option for best power/weight, V8 for more torque and that 'effortless grunt' experience. As to which V8 to buy in, sorry to keep on about BMW, but why not copy the example set by Morgan with the Aero 8....?
...
Great post, I too would be sorry to see the demise of a straight six engine in the TVR. V8s are OK but the straight six is perfectly balanced and an easier configuration to obtain high rev limits with (and hence high power without huge size).
I would love to know a bit more about the S6 and how it compares to other lumps. For example, how heavy is it compared to, say, an M3 engine with similar power output? How much bigger/smaller is it than other similar lumps? What is the big advantage (other than, maybe, initial cost) of using the S6 rather than buying in an M3 engine??? I'd love to read up on this if anybody knows of any good links....
It would be great if the S6 can be made as reliable as, say, the BMW engine. I suspect it's already pretty close - many M3s need new engines at approx. 50K miles..... so personally I think TVR are right to stick with it.
BTW I can totally see why people love the V8s too, it is a different driving experience, and just as valid. If possible, TVR should aim to cater for both categories, S6 option for best power/weight, V8 for more torque and that 'effortless grunt' experience. As to which V8 to buy in, sorry to keep on about BMW, but why not copy the example set by Morgan with the Aero 8....?
...
BMW, arghh - didn't PW not want any German engines in his cars? Have said this before, but BMW would not want the same engine in a TVR as the Z4M, a lighter better looking car to compete against their own !!
Here's a link that has some techy info on the M3 engine.
www.rsportscars.com/eng/cars/bmw_m3.asp
Have read other links where a 3 series owner ditched the M3 engine (iron block, makes me think of an old Ford Cortina
) and replaced with a Aluminium Chevy V8 as it's cheaper, better packaged (possible to get more weight rearward since its more compact than a straight six) and can make more power! From what I was aware more cylinders for a given cc means higher rpm possible. Whilst the RV8 is low revving, most modern V8's can achieve 1000-2000 rpm more.
BMW once upon a time had a 4 cylinder M3.
This logically progressed to a straight six.
Its progressing again onto a V8.
This post isn't meant to knock the SP6, TVR have given up on simple cars hence their own engine is required - its just that a SP6 would not be as good as the AJP8 with 32v heads!
Derek Smith said:
........... I can, however, see why many people on these forums prefer the RV8 but, if you like the Griffith with the RV8, the solution is quite simple. Buy one.......
You've made a very foolish assumtion that the very same people who love the RV8 cars wouldn't like to buy a new TVR with a V8.If TVR sold a new sportscar with a good reliable V8 then people would buy it in droves,including a huge amount of current Griff and Chim owners,myself included. The reason why most of us are 'stuck' on the RV8 is simply because there is nothing else that provides the same combination of reliability and performance,from the company we love.
If TVR were to try to continue with the S6 then they'll never make it imho,that engine is consigned to the TR7 section of automotive history i'm afraid-mud sticks.
Who makes the engine isn't important,as the RV8 proved,it just has to be driveable,powerfull and reliable from the consumers point,and relatively inexpensive for the manufacturer,obviously.
I'd never transplant an american lump in my Griff,but if TVR fitted an LS in a new soft top,i'd be first in the que with my chequebook!
Edited by mongoose on Saturday 28th October 14:26
That has got to be the funniest post on PH this yearjerrytlr said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I never knew the S6 had a flat plane crank! - that would explain why it is not as smooth as I would expect for a straight 6, esp at lower engine speeds... does anybody know why TVR designed it this way?? What advantage is there??
Cheers
Jerry
I think it is more efficient having a flat plane crank and is easier to set the timing on.
Someone with more technical knowledge will be along in a minute no doubt
I am in total agreement with mongoose on this on, and I've made the comment over and over again on PH as has many other people - I don't care who makes it, so long as we have a V8 option. The S6 engine IS a good engine now and will do all the better for Ricardos involvement, but not everyone likes the modern high end torque of that type of engine.
Some of us grew up dreaming of a classic british sportscar with a straight six engine Triumph, Austin etc, some of us grew up dreaming of a V8 muscle car. They are as different as the people who buy them, but it was a mistake for TVR to drop the v8 option as it instantly cut off half of their potential repeat buyers who bought into the childhood dream.
No matter how much more powerful one is over the other, the we they deliver that power and the sound, put them firmly in two very different camps.
afterthought;
Why is it that the ajp8 engine was dropped and never (or so it appears) picked up again? I understand the issues over emissions and the need for 4 valves per pot, but it couldn't be that expensive to develop a new head design. Hasn't Al Melling already done so in the new car he has recently launched?
Some of us grew up dreaming of a classic british sportscar with a straight six engine Triumph, Austin etc, some of us grew up dreaming of a V8 muscle car. They are as different as the people who buy them, but it was a mistake for TVR to drop the v8 option as it instantly cut off half of their potential repeat buyers who bought into the childhood dream.
No matter how much more powerful one is over the other, the we they deliver that power and the sound, put them firmly in two very different camps.
afterthought;
Why is it that the ajp8 engine was dropped and never (or so it appears) picked up again? I understand the issues over emissions and the need for 4 valves per pot, but it couldn't be that expensive to develop a new head design. Hasn't Al Melling already done so in the new car he has recently launched?
Derek Smith said:
On the specific subject of the Speed 6 engine, it would appear that NS has come to the opinion that some investment is needed so has got Ricardo to work on it.
SO THERE IS STILL A PROBLEM WITH THE S6, THATS GOING TO HELP SELL 05/06 CARS.
ITS A TOTAL JOKE BUT AIN'T THAT FUNNY FOR US TVR HEADS.
This can only be a good thing. They will also build it which, from a Factory point of view, has got to be cost effective.
The one asset that TVR has, apart from the badge, is the Sp6.
IS THAT ANOTHER JOKE OF YOURS DEREK
The design costs are all gone so to abandon it would be a bit silly. I've driven many Sp6 engined cars, as well as RV8 and Ford V6 and it really is a case of chalk and cheese and cheese. I can, however, see why many people on these forums prefer the RV8 but, if you like the Griffith with the RV8, the solution is quite simple. Buy one.
I HAVE AND HAVE HAD ONE FOR SEVEN YEARS BUT HOW DOES THAT HELP TVR SELL NEW CARS
The Sp6, under Laurence Tomlinson's racing team, became as reliable as most others in the pit lane. With the extra investment of Ricardo, perhaps the criticisms laid at its door will be a thing of the past. Certainly I've heard many reports of >10,000 miles pa out of current Sp6 engines without problems.
I like the AJP8. It's a superb engine. It's the best that has ever been fitted to a TVR, but it is tremendously expensive, would be a niche model and would require a fair bit of investment to get it through the emissions tests.
I love the Speed 6 engine.
WELL I DONT AND HAVE DRIVEN ALL OF THEM
It's a real sports car power plant. It also comes with the most delightful cluth I've ever had the joy of using. It is a little cammy, but to suggest this is a fault and not a bonus is a bit strange.
After the shock of the closure and the resentment of the loss of jobs, I've got to say that I can see the logic of some of the plans NS has shared with us. When we know the rest - Bertone is just speculation at the moment - perhaps it will all come clear.
AM SURE THATS COMFORTING FOR BLACKPOOL BUT HEY THATS LIFE
But let's not go silly about the RV8. It was a nice engine - I've got one - but it is yesterday's, well, the day before Friday of last week's - technology. So why buy in a V8 when you've got something better already?
HOW ABOUT THE TVRPOWER SUPERCHARGE RV8 500.
Perhaps it needed a bit of work. If so, then Ricardo will put that right.
EVENTUALLY, HEARD THAT BEFORE.
How much better to see TVR at Le Mans next year (if true) with the Sp6 under the bonnet rather than some American lump.
LETS ALL LOOK ON THE BRIGHT SIDE AND FXXK EVERYONE AT BLACKPOOL
I would point out that I know nothing about TVR's plans that I haven't read on press releases and in other publications so don't go reading into this post anything that not there.
SO THERE IS STILL A PROBLEM WITH THE S6, THATS GOING TO HELP SELL 05/06 CARS.
ITS A TOTAL JOKE BUT AIN'T THAT FUNNY FOR US TVR HEADS.
This can only be a good thing. They will also build it which, from a Factory point of view, has got to be cost effective.
The one asset that TVR has, apart from the badge, is the Sp6.
IS THAT ANOTHER JOKE OF YOURS DEREK
The design costs are all gone so to abandon it would be a bit silly. I've driven many Sp6 engined cars, as well as RV8 and Ford V6 and it really is a case of chalk and cheese and cheese. I can, however, see why many people on these forums prefer the RV8 but, if you like the Griffith with the RV8, the solution is quite simple. Buy one.
I HAVE AND HAVE HAD ONE FOR SEVEN YEARS BUT HOW DOES THAT HELP TVR SELL NEW CARS
The Sp6, under Laurence Tomlinson's racing team, became as reliable as most others in the pit lane. With the extra investment of Ricardo, perhaps the criticisms laid at its door will be a thing of the past. Certainly I've heard many reports of >10,000 miles pa out of current Sp6 engines without problems.
I like the AJP8. It's a superb engine. It's the best that has ever been fitted to a TVR, but it is tremendously expensive, would be a niche model and would require a fair bit of investment to get it through the emissions tests.
I love the Speed 6 engine.
WELL I DONT AND HAVE DRIVEN ALL OF THEM
It's a real sports car power plant. It also comes with the most delightful cluth I've ever had the joy of using. It is a little cammy, but to suggest this is a fault and not a bonus is a bit strange.
After the shock of the closure and the resentment of the loss of jobs, I've got to say that I can see the logic of some of the plans NS has shared with us. When we know the rest - Bertone is just speculation at the moment - perhaps it will all come clear.
AM SURE THATS COMFORTING FOR BLACKPOOL BUT HEY THATS LIFE
But let's not go silly about the RV8. It was a nice engine - I've got one - but it is yesterday's, well, the day before Friday of last week's - technology. So why buy in a V8 when you've got something better already?
HOW ABOUT THE TVRPOWER SUPERCHARGE RV8 500.
Perhaps it needed a bit of work. If so, then Ricardo will put that right.
EVENTUALLY, HEARD THAT BEFORE.
How much better to see TVR at Le Mans next year (if true) with the Sp6 under the bonnet rather than some American lump.
LETS ALL LOOK ON THE BRIGHT SIDE AND FXXK EVERYONE AT BLACKPOOL
I would point out that I know nothing about TVR's plans that I haven't read on press releases and in other publications so don't go reading into this post anything that not there.
TOTAL RUBBISH DEREK
Edited by Uncle Bulgaria on Saturday 28th October 16:02
I can't understand this so-called lack of smoothness. I've always found that they are like turbines. Without a limiter, it would be almost impossible not to over-rev. They can be a little uneven on tickover but even so, much less than most highly tuned engines and there is no way it could be described as lumpy. Even when pushing out 440 TVR bhp the engine is docile. And in looks it beats the AJP8 and demolishes the RV8.
I've just sold my 2.8 straight 6 24-valve Mercedes. It was a lovely engine. You could forget it was there. It was smooth, even on tickover, but it pushed out, I seem to remember, just 170bhp. It was entitled to be smooth.
I've just sold my 2.8 straight 6 24-valve Mercedes. It was a lovely engine. You could forget it was there. It was smooth, even on tickover, but it pushed out, I seem to remember, just 170bhp. It was entitled to be smooth.
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