What would you do?
Discussion
Now I'm as p1ssed about what's happening in Blackpool as everyone (more than some), but I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, in the hope of sparking a sensible debate... (before anyone else says it, that'll be a first!)
Imagine this:
You find yourself in possession of a wad of cash, you love TVRs and you see the company in a mess, verging on going bust. What do you do?
Here's what I would start with:
1 - Get rid of models that aren't selling, concentrate on top one or two. (tick)
2 - Get the engine situation sorted out. There's too much money gone into the development of the S6 to scrap it, so let's hand it over to a specialist to sort out (tick)
3 - Move away from the excessive cost and inconsistent build quality of hand building - go and find a plant with a good reputation and excess robot capacity (tick)
4 - Get rid of the jokers who have handled the firm's PR so disastrously (tick... finally)
Well, it might, it just MIGHT be that NS is seeing sense. He's tried throwing a sh1tload of money at the job, which did nowt, so maybe he's doing things the way they should have been done two or three years ago? Now that the initial rage has subsided, maybe he's ticking the right boxes? He's certainly ticked all the above.
Or maybe the above is what someone else should be doing?
I'm not going to talk about launching new models, let's just look at the business.
Ideas? (The first person to say 'start making RV8s and relaunch the Griff' will get a midnight visit from the brain police)
Imagine this:
You find yourself in possession of a wad of cash, you love TVRs and you see the company in a mess, verging on going bust. What do you do?
Here's what I would start with:
1 - Get rid of models that aren't selling, concentrate on top one or two. (tick)
2 - Get the engine situation sorted out. There's too much money gone into the development of the S6 to scrap it, so let's hand it over to a specialist to sort out (tick)
3 - Move away from the excessive cost and inconsistent build quality of hand building - go and find a plant with a good reputation and excess robot capacity (tick)
4 - Get rid of the jokers who have handled the firm's PR so disastrously (tick... finally)
Well, it might, it just MIGHT be that NS is seeing sense. He's tried throwing a sh1tload of money at the job, which did nowt, so maybe he's doing things the way they should have been done two or three years ago? Now that the initial rage has subsided, maybe he's ticking the right boxes? He's certainly ticked all the above.
Or maybe the above is what someone else should be doing?
I'm not going to talk about launching new models, let's just look at the business.
Ideas? (The first person to say 'start making RV8s and relaunch the Griff' will get a midnight visit from the brain police)
How about just making a car that people want to buy! And that they want to buy in reasonable volume!
I'm sorry - I'm sure owners love their Sags etc - but the truth is that the Chim/Griff purchasing public didn't want to buy them. If they had bought them TVR would not now be currently in the situation its in. Q.E.D.
Time to design a car that can be built cost effectively in low volume that people want to buy. It doesn't matter if it costs as much as an Aston if there are enough customers for the product. People, it seems, want all those little modern improvements that make cars safer and easier to drive. (ABS, DSC, Airbags and so on). Instead of saying no never I am philosophically opposed to such things TVR are going to have to look at these things. ABS at a minimum.
The other thing essential to a product that people want to buy is how it looks. The later generation of TVR products moved away from their "classic" period looks into a "wild" period looks. Yes I know some of you loved that. Yes I know some of you even bought them! Proof of the pudding is in the eating, though. They DID NOT SELL in the same volume. Correct the mistake! Make the cars something that the forty and fifty somethings with money in their pockets want to be seen in!
I'm sorry - I'm sure owners love their Sags etc - but the truth is that the Chim/Griff purchasing public didn't want to buy them. If they had bought them TVR would not now be currently in the situation its in. Q.E.D.
Time to design a car that can be built cost effectively in low volume that people want to buy. It doesn't matter if it costs as much as an Aston if there are enough customers for the product. People, it seems, want all those little modern improvements that make cars safer and easier to drive. (ABS, DSC, Airbags and so on). Instead of saying no never I am philosophically opposed to such things TVR are going to have to look at these things. ABS at a minimum.
The other thing essential to a product that people want to buy is how it looks. The later generation of TVR products moved away from their "classic" period looks into a "wild" period looks. Yes I know some of you loved that. Yes I know some of you even bought them! Proof of the pudding is in the eating, though. They DID NOT SELL in the same volume. Correct the mistake! Make the cars something that the forty and fifty somethings with money in their pockets want to be seen in!
I agree, but I was trying to stay away from the old arguments! Personally I think stopping production of the Chimaera was the dumbest move ever made, when it could have been remodelled to suit another sourced V8. (It's still not too late to think of a "Chim 2"
I'd personally be thinking along the lines of a decent roadster, maybe under a different badge, as a volume model.
I'd personally be thinking along the lines of a decent roadster, maybe under a different badge, as a volume model.
wedgie said:
I agree, but I was trying to stay away from the old arguments! Personally I think stopping production of the Chimaera was the dumbest move ever made, when it could have been remodelled to suit another sourced V8. (It's still not too late to think of a "Chim 2"
I'd personally be thinking along the lines of a decent roadster, maybe under a different badge, as a volume model.
I'd personally be thinking along the lines of a decent roadster, maybe under a different badge, as a volume model.
Well I always saw the Tuscan 2 convertible as a new age Griffith and from the side profile they sure look similar!
Maybe drop an outsourced V8 into the T2 as an option?
Sorry, Im banging on an old drum again
wedgie said:
2 - Get the engine situation sorted out. There's too much money gone into the development of the S6 to scrap it, so let's hand it over to a specialist to sort out (tick)
Pay experts to sort it or just buy some decent engines in. Fact of life. Volumes too low.
wedgie said:
3 - Move away from the excessive cost and inconsistent build quality of hand building - go and find a plant with a good reputation and excess robot capacity (tick)
No way. Never an option. The volumes are waaaaaaaaay too low. Outsource locally or outsource offshore.
Other than that, can't really argue.
NDT said:
No way. Never an option. The volumes are waaaaaaaaay too low. Outsource locally or outsource offshore.
Thing is with digital robots these days if someone has already bought the hardware (like Bertone), then it's no great shakes to say to the machine: "when you've finished making those Astra convertibles, knock us a dozen Chims out". And they don't sit around playing cards or watching DVDs all day (alleged quote from the man from the shop floor)
Couple of other pointers, I'd say:
1 - Scrap the stupid overly-macho designs and go for something that people will buy without feeling they should be wearing a Batman cape
2 - Stop telling barfaced porkers to your workforce and customers
Well he needs to identify the core brand values and focus on building those - Power, wackyness, style, noise, anti-establishment, and Britishness. While the last point may not mean much to a young Russian, it probably does to a large percentage of his customers.
I think I will buy a Lotus next ! - aren't they still owned by someone in Malaysia? Evidence to the point that ownership need not destory product identity, but TVR seem to be doing overtime to destroy theirs.
I think I will buy a Lotus next ! - aren't they still owned by someone in Malaysia? Evidence to the point that ownership need not destory product identity, but TVR seem to be doing overtime to destroy theirs.
The problem with TVR was never the product range or the style of the vehicles.
The company always had a Kit Car approach to quality and product delivery they could never take the next step and become a quality branded operation.
Look under the skin of most of the cars that have rolled out of Blackpool and you will clearly see the missing attention to detail that would have turned TVR fortunes from where they are to day to where they could have been.
From cheap parts and crap wiring the company future was always doomed to fail the consumers today will not stomach paying a lot of money for a short-term thrill that spend most of it life in the garage.
Who’s to blame the MD and the board of director at TVR why because they are the only people with the power to make the changes to the business that would have seen TVR future flourish in to days market.
I am saddened to see the operation move out of the UK but hopefully it will become a quality product that people will want to own and drive and that is not a bad thing.
My apologise for any spelling mistakes
The company always had a Kit Car approach to quality and product delivery they could never take the next step and become a quality branded operation.
Look under the skin of most of the cars that have rolled out of Blackpool and you will clearly see the missing attention to detail that would have turned TVR fortunes from where they are to day to where they could have been.
From cheap parts and crap wiring the company future was always doomed to fail the consumers today will not stomach paying a lot of money for a short-term thrill that spend most of it life in the garage.
Who’s to blame the MD and the board of director at TVR why because they are the only people with the power to make the changes to the business that would have seen TVR future flourish in to days market.
I am saddened to see the operation move out of the UK but hopefully it will become a quality product that people will want to own and drive and that is not a bad thing.
My apologise for any spelling mistakes
I agree with most of the above and was thinking about this only the other day. As much as I love TVR's they are not much more than a kit car, sorry to say that, I have one myself but that's the way they are seen, and to be expected to pay 50K for one is quite frankly bonkers. Much as I love them, if I had that sort of money it would not got TVR's way. I agree the shape of the Tuscan convertable does look similar to the Griff from some angles, and a lower cost entry model with a reliable 6 cylinder engine or a V8 would I think sell like hot cakes. The thing that puts me off the modern models, and I laughed at the batman comment above, is the weird interiors, as good as the Tusc is, there is no way I could drive a car where the radio looks as though it has been mounted in E.T's head, let alone having to look between ones legs to see certain dials or to have the feeling that there is a blast of cold air coming from the region of your trouser snake! I think we need an S model for the 21st century, something that will bring TVR's to the masses and will lead onto the success that was the S, the Griff, Chimera and Cerbera.
IMHO
IMHO
The basic package of a TVR is brilliant. It just they tried to do too much in-house. I believe you should keep it simple, get the core bits right, engine, chassis, exterior design and reliability. Do what you do best and let others do what you don't. Don't do what you don't need to either.
Buy crate engines developed by large companies who have the clout to make a reliable engine and modify gently the induction, mapping and exhaust systems if you wish. You get the instrument and engine electric packs with these engines usually so that reduces the wiring input required in the TVR factory. That way the reliability issues are reduced - surely a major perceived problem with TVR?. Who used an engine from a larger company? McLaren F1, Noble, Morgan, Caterham,Westfield, Marcos........... They are still manufaturing in the UK.
The chassis is sorted anyway and TVR design them well, the exterior styling is sorted too and the glassfibre technique is versatile when considering facelifts.
Keep the interior simple to reduce cost, parts bin switches and fittings, but selected carefully.Aston and Noble can do it so why not TVR? I reckon it costed soooo much for TVR to machine all those alloy switches and dials and to trim all those fancy shaped interiors and seats.Not to mention the building of their fancy speedometer eletronics.
I see a Griffith and a T350 side by side. They are both stunning externally. In the cabin the Griff is Vauxhall and Ford all over and the T350 is bespoke. Does that make the Griff less of a TVR?
Aftermarket companies such as Leven could make their own bits and bobs which dealers could fit if a client wanted something more unique/bespoke.
Buy crate engines developed by large companies who have the clout to make a reliable engine and modify gently the induction, mapping and exhaust systems if you wish. You get the instrument and engine electric packs with these engines usually so that reduces the wiring input required in the TVR factory. That way the reliability issues are reduced - surely a major perceived problem with TVR?. Who used an engine from a larger company? McLaren F1, Noble, Morgan, Caterham,Westfield, Marcos........... They are still manufaturing in the UK.
The chassis is sorted anyway and TVR design them well, the exterior styling is sorted too and the glassfibre technique is versatile when considering facelifts.
Keep the interior simple to reduce cost, parts bin switches and fittings, but selected carefully.Aston and Noble can do it so why not TVR? I reckon it costed soooo much for TVR to machine all those alloy switches and dials and to trim all those fancy shaped interiors and seats.Not to mention the building of their fancy speedometer eletronics.
I see a Griffith and a T350 side by side. They are both stunning externally. In the cabin the Griff is Vauxhall and Ford all over and the T350 is bespoke. Does that make the Griff less of a TVR?
Aftermarket companies such as Leven could make their own bits and bobs which dealers could fit if a client wanted something more unique/bespoke.
I'm afraid I don't think the basic package of a TVR is brilliant at all.
It was highly competetive once - say in the early nineties. Now it isn't. It could be again, though. Personally I think GRP as a bodywork material could have had its day...but perhaps not. What matters is that the chassis/engine & drivetrain/braking systems/electrickery and safety equipment are competetive in the price bracket.
At £50K a TVR is stacked up against some pretty amazing oppostion. People will buy TVRs for their exclusivity - but not if they're crap in comparison.
I bought a TVR when the word "wacky" was not part of how they were described. In fact the styling and looks were fairly conservative - it was what was underneath that mattered.
In short: Design a classic-looking roadster again. Build it on top of a properly galvanised and rustproofed chassis. Fit it with bought-in modern systems...including a crated engine/gearbox. Give it a traditional TVR power-to-weight ratio. Sadly: price it so as to provide a decent margin. Ideally I'd like the thing to have an electric roof - but a traditional TVR hard panel would do to save on cost. Oh...and making it so bits didn't fall off would be a bloody good idea, too.
It was highly competetive once - say in the early nineties. Now it isn't. It could be again, though. Personally I think GRP as a bodywork material could have had its day...but perhaps not. What matters is that the chassis/engine & drivetrain/braking systems/electrickery and safety equipment are competetive in the price bracket.
At £50K a TVR is stacked up against some pretty amazing oppostion. People will buy TVRs for their exclusivity - but not if they're crap in comparison.
I bought a TVR when the word "wacky" was not part of how they were described. In fact the styling and looks were fairly conservative - it was what was underneath that mattered.
In short: Design a classic-looking roadster again. Build it on top of a properly galvanised and rustproofed chassis. Fit it with bought-in modern systems...including a crated engine/gearbox. Give it a traditional TVR power-to-weight ratio. Sadly: price it so as to provide a decent margin. Ideally I'd like the thing to have an electric roof - but a traditional TVR hard panel would do to save on cost. Oh...and making it so bits didn't fall off would be a bloody good idea, too.
Good post wedgie 
would agree with that.
Yes Don, we certainly do
But you are right.......and it's not just the Sags they don't want to buy.
I never thought that TVR could make a replacement Griff...the car was just too iconic to replace....but IMO TVR have made a car to replace the Griff...a Tuscan 2 convertible.
I have seen sooo many Griff owners change.
But....the fact is (sorry wedgie) the Sagaris and Tuscans do not have the right engine for Chimaera and Griff peeps who love their V8s.
But, I don't think that's the only reason.
To fully spec up a Tuscan 2 is £45k +
To fully spec up a Sag is £50k + (some are even £60k + now)
I think the void is too great price wise for many Griff and Chimaera owners.
I hear opinions from a number of people when they come over to talk about the Sagaris and I've lost count of the times I hear...I just love it but can't afford it.
And who's to blame them in todays economy and the fact that many of these owners are having to fork out humungous mortgages....it makes the £30,000 void seem like a black hole!
I think if TVR bring out an Aston priced TVR it will make things worse for the owners of our classic TVRs.
Of course there will always be those who can afford the jump..but it will be the few rather than the many... many have bought their cars as an entry level TVR secondhand and the gap is a wide one to breach.
I too have always said that I would buy a TVR with an auto lid and boy have I got shouted down for it
All these PC (but some consider necessary) things that the likes of Aston, Jaguar and Porsche put in their cars will add to the weight and take away the 'drivers' essence of the TVR.
The TVR is not PC.......it's a drivers car..........long may it be so and people buy into TVR knowing that it comes with no frills.
all IMO....
YP
would agree with that. Don said:
I'm sorry - I'm sure owners love their Sags etc - but the truth is that the Chim/Griff purchasing public didn't want to buy them. If they had bought them TVR would not now be currently in the situation its in. Q.E.D.
Time to design a car that can be built cost effectively in low volume that people want to buy. It doesn't matter if it costs as much as an Aston if there are enough customers for the product.
Time to design a car that can be built cost effectively in low volume that people want to buy. It doesn't matter if it costs as much as an Aston if there are enough customers for the product.
Yes Don, we certainly do
But you are right.......and it's not just the Sags they don't want to buy.
I never thought that TVR could make a replacement Griff...the car was just too iconic to replace....but IMO TVR have made a car to replace the Griff...a Tuscan 2 convertible.
I have seen sooo many Griff owners change.
But....the fact is (sorry wedgie) the Sagaris and Tuscans do not have the right engine for Chimaera and Griff peeps who love their V8s.
But, I don't think that's the only reason.
To fully spec up a Tuscan 2 is £45k +
To fully spec up a Sag is £50k + (some are even £60k + now)
I think the void is too great price wise for many Griff and Chimaera owners.
I hear opinions from a number of people when they come over to talk about the Sagaris and I've lost count of the times I hear...I just love it but can't afford it.
And who's to blame them in todays economy and the fact that many of these owners are having to fork out humungous mortgages....it makes the £30,000 void seem like a black hole!
I think if TVR bring out an Aston priced TVR it will make things worse for the owners of our classic TVRs.
Of course there will always be those who can afford the jump..but it will be the few rather than the many... many have bought their cars as an entry level TVR secondhand and the gap is a wide one to breach.
I too have always said that I would buy a TVR with an auto lid
and boy have I got shouted down for it All these PC (but some consider necessary) things that the likes of Aston, Jaguar and Porsche put in their cars will add to the weight and take away the 'drivers' essence of the TVR.
The TVR is not PC.......it's a drivers car..........long may it be so and people buy into TVR knowing that it comes with no frills.
all IMO....
YP
Edited by yellow peril on Friday 27th October 08:15
Don said:
How about just making a car that people want to buy! And that they want to buy in reasonable volume!
I'm sorry - I'm sure owners love their Sags etc - but the truth is that the Chim/Griff purchasing public didn't want to buy them. If they had bought them TVR would not now be currently in the situation its in. Q.E.D.
I'm sorry - I'm sure owners love their Sags etc - but the truth is that the Chim/Griff purchasing public didn't want to buy them. If they had bought them TVR would not now be currently in the situation its in. Q.E.D.
Then...
Don said:
I'm afraid I don't think the basic package of a TVR is brilliant at all.
It was highly competetive once - say in the early nineties. Now it isn't. It could be again, though. Personally I think GRP as a bodywork material could have had its day...but perhaps not. What matters is that the chassis/engine & drivetrain/braking systems/electrickery and safety equipment are competetive in the price bracket.
..and...
Don said:
In short: Design a classic-looking roadster again. Build it on top of a properly galvanised and rustproofed chassis. Fit it with bought-in modern systems...including a crated engine/gearbox. Give it a traditional TVR power-to-weight ratio. Sadly: price it so as to provide a decent margin. Ideally I'd like the thing to have an electric roof - but a traditional TVR hard panel would do to save on cost. Oh...and making it so bits didn't fall off would be a bloody good idea, too.
First class postings
About prices (before the last round of price 'adjustments' that really were out of touch with the market IMO) - is it prices themselves or the customers having forgot about KISS and speccing their cars up to ridiculous levels (TVR not helping themselves here by providing £55K Tuscans for magazine tests, admittedly)? I myself thought £39,850 for a 4.0 litre Tuscan Convertible was a rather attractive price, and not at all out of line with the £32K or thereabouts a Chim 450 was listed for in 1996/7...
yellow peril said:
I think the void is too great price wise for many Griff and Chimaera owners.
Edited by yellow peril on Friday 27th October 08:15
I think this sums it up exactly - at the end of the day I am guessing that 90% of us can probably only just afford to run our beloved Chimaeras and Griffs let alone think about moving up to a Sag or T2! Whatever happens I for one will be keeping my Chimaera for as long as I can!
ps great post Yellow Peril
Podie said:
Don said:
How about just making a car that people want to buy! And that they want to buy in reasonable volume!
I'm sorry - I'm sure owners love their Sags etc - but the truth is that the Chim/Griff purchasing public didn't want to buy them. If they had bought them TVR would not now be currently in the situation its in. Q.E.D.
I'm sorry - I'm sure owners love their Sags etc - but the truth is that the Chim/Griff purchasing public didn't want to buy them. If they had bought them TVR would not now be currently in the situation its in. Q.E.D.
Then...
Don said:
I'm afraid I don't think the basic package of a TVR is brilliant at all.
It was highly competetive once - say in the early nineties. Now it isn't. It could be again, though. Personally I think GRP as a bodywork material could have had its day...but perhaps not. What matters is that the chassis/engine & drivetrain/braking systems/electrickery and safety equipment are competetive in the price bracket.
..and...
Don said:
In short: Design a classic-looking roadster again. Build it on top of a properly galvanised and rustproofed chassis. Fit it with bought-in modern systems...including a crated engine/gearbox. Give it a traditional TVR power-to-weight ratio. Sadly: price it so as to provide a decent margin. Ideally I'd like the thing to have an electric roof - but a traditional TVR hard panel would do to save on cost. Oh...and making it so bits didn't fall off would be a bloody good idea, too.
First class postings
Ineed, my sentiments exactly
YP: Its nice to hear someone else musing about the T2 as being the closest thing to a modern day Griff. I was talking with a decent chappie from the WYTVRCC meet t'other week and we were discussing (and agreeing) that the T2 is bares a striking resemblance to the Griffith from the side profile and if a V8 was dropped in, it could be its spiritual successor, but the price would need to be a bit lower to tempt people out of their Griffs
I dont think there is a possibility of a sub 30K TVR these days given that there are now £30K Vauxhalls THIRTY BLOODY THOUSAND FOR SOMETHING WITH A VAUXHALL BADGE!!!!!!!!
900T-R said:
I myself thought £39,850 for a 4.0 litre Tuscan Convertible was a rather attractive price, and not at all out of line with the £32K or thereabouts a Chim 450 was listed for in 1996/7...
Good point, what would that new price be now for the Chimaera 10 years down the road and with inflation....?
TVR are now producing £45k+ TVRs and the next one (if it appears) is rumoured to be £125,000- £130,000
For those that can afford to buy new from scratch the only issues are build quality, reliability and performance against others of the same money.
But for those who bought entry level second hand, it is too big a gap to try and spread in today's market.
YP
yellow peril said:
900T-R said:
I myself thought £39,850 for a 4.0 litre Tuscan Convertible was a rather attractive price, and not at all out of line with the £32K or thereabouts a Chim 450 was listed for in 1996/7...
Good point, what would that new price be now for the Chimaera 10 years down the road and with inflation....?
TVR are now producing £45k+ TVRs and the next one (if it appears) is rumoured to be £125,000- £130,000
For those that can afford to buy new from scratch the only issues are build quality, reliability and performance against others of the same money.
But for those who bought entry level second hand, it is too big a gap to try and spread in today's market.
YP
£39850 does look good value. I have the original bill of sale for my 99 Griff and its £37950 though mine does have a number of options fitted.
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