TVR / BMW Z4M / Cayman Test in Autocar next week....
Discussion
Should be an interesting test....
Doesn't say if it's a Sagaris or T350 or Tuscan though, but at the Z4M price, it should be a T350?
Saw the Z4M at the local BMW dealer a couple of weeks ago and I must admit, it did look the business. The interior plastics were a bit low rent, but still a much higher finish than my T350 (obviously). And almost as powerful....
Out on sale on Weds...
Hope the Tiv shows up well!
Doesn't say if it's a Sagaris or T350 or Tuscan though, but at the Z4M price, it should be a T350?
Saw the Z4M at the local BMW dealer a couple of weeks ago and I must admit, it did look the business. The interior plastics were a bit low rent, but still a much higher finish than my T350 (obviously). And almost as powerful....
Out on sale on Weds...
Hope the Tiv shows up well!
The out come will be the same as usual.
First Porche because they can do no wrong. Sports car for bad drivers the car sorts it all out.
Second BMW great drivers car but never going to be a porche. Again not relly a drivers car just has lots of things to stop you going wrong.
Third TVR because it smells funny and has no safety kit. The real drivers car but it would seem that not many real drivers left anymore.
IMHO of course.
Now tell me I a wrong
Peter
First Porche because they can do no wrong. Sports car for bad drivers the car sorts it all out.
Second BMW great drivers car but never going to be a porche. Again not relly a drivers car just has lots of things to stop you going wrong.
Third TVR because it smells funny and has no safety kit. The real drivers car but it would seem that not many real drivers left anymore.
IMHO of course.
Now tell me I a wrong
Peter
It's the Z4M Coupe against the Cayman S and Sagaris.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
DoctorD said:
It's the Z4M Coupe against the Cayman S and Sagaris.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
True...but the quotes about how expensive the Tuscan were when compared to the other were a bit rich considering the spec of the one tested (it was almost up to Tuscan S spec if I remember, inclusing the ludicrously expensive paint job).
(Evo reader since day1 and owner of a Tuscan in said ludicrously expensive colour!
)DoctorD said:
It's the Z4M Coupe against the Cayman S and Sagaris.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
Id LOVE to know htf moting bloody journalists reach such f**king stupid conclusions as to whether or not a specific car is any good as an everyday car. Put it this way, odds are it will be Vivian who does or at least takes part in the test, if he starts any of the "not good enough everyday" business Ill be having words with him next time I see him parked outside!
DJC said:
Id LOVE to know htf moting bloody journalists reach such f**king stupid conclusions as to whether or not a specific car is any good as an everyday car. Put it this way, odds are it will be Vivian who does or at least takes part in the test, if he starts any of the "not good enough everyday" business Ill be having words with him next time I see him parked outside!
I agree that most journalist rarely have to use their own money and buy a daily driver, but are you 'seriously' suggesting that the Sagaris is on a par with a Cayman as an everyday car?
Cerbyt said:
True...but the quotes about how expensive the Tuscan were when compared to the other were a bit rich considering the spec of the one tested (it was almost up to Tuscan S spec if I remember, inclusing the ludicrously expensive paint job).
(Evo reader since day1 and owner of a Tuscan in said ludicrously expensive colour!
)IIRC what really bumped up the price of the Tuscan S Convertible was the higher bhp engine option (approx £9k+) I believe.
DJC said:
DoctorD said:
It's the Z4M Coupe against the Cayman S and Sagaris.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
Z4M Coupe is a great drivers car, far more 'TVR like' than the sanitised Cayman S. Cayman is a better drivers car than the Boxster, but still too 'easy' to drive. Good everyday car but not so great if seeking something special for the weekend. The Sagaris is the most thrilling (i.e. best weekend car of the lot), but not so good as your only car. Best compromise would be the Z4M Coupe, but Autochuff will probably give the accolade to the Cayman S.
Take the 'rose-tinted' specs off and celebrate the fact that customer's have a choice. Just as in the similar test I did in EVO a few months ago (with the roadsters), it didn't leave any car feeling a dud.
Id LOVE to know htf moting bloody journalists reach such f**king stupid conclusions as to whether or not a specific car is any good as an everyday car. Put it this way, odds are it will be Vivian who does or at least takes part in the test, if he starts any of the "not good enough everyday" business Ill be having words with him next time I see him parked outside!
Sometimes the dealers don't help. When I was having problems with our Tamora Roof, I spoke to a number of dealers about the car and most of them suggested to me that the car was not suitable for every day use. This was despite the car not missing a beat during its 4,500 miles with us in the 8 weeks when it was with us. What hope is there if the people selling the product adopt the line that the jurno's do.
IVMHO...
Cayman S- great car, very neutral balance and brilliant point to point speed due to being able to use the majority of the power the majority of the time so despite 'only' having 295bhp it is a quick car in the real world. Lacks any real wow factor but a superb do-it-all car and I think it has a depth of character that would reveal itself over the course of ownership.
BMW Z4 M Coupe- in terms of it's character it has more natural urgency, it seems like it always wants to go and urges you to press on. Foot to the floor it doesn't really impress in the bends in the same way the Porsche does but if you unsettle it a little and grab it by the scruff of the neck it does thrill and entertain. Plus it's pretty tech-free when compared to other new M-power offerings.
Sagaris- not really an everyday car due to the low ride height but is actually suprisingly civilised in terms of the fact that although it sounds like it runs really 'rough' it can maintain low speeds in traffic without a great deal of effort. It feels like more of an emotional experience in comparison to the main-stream players and it's a car you'd buy with your heart as I found that every trip was an absolute joy and it's the only one out the three that pulled at the heart-strings when I had to give the keys back.
Keys on the table I'd take the TVR everytime but then as a one and only car it would be a close run thing between the other two. That said, if I was sitting at the side of the road having ripped the front of the TVR off on a unforseen bump I may have wished I'd gone for one of the more conventional choices.
Hmmm, pretty inconclusive then... www.pistonheads.com/gassing/icons/rolleyes.gif
Cayman S- great car, very neutral balance and brilliant point to point speed due to being able to use the majority of the power the majority of the time so despite 'only' having 295bhp it is a quick car in the real world. Lacks any real wow factor but a superb do-it-all car and I think it has a depth of character that would reveal itself over the course of ownership.
BMW Z4 M Coupe- in terms of it's character it has more natural urgency, it seems like it always wants to go and urges you to press on. Foot to the floor it doesn't really impress in the bends in the same way the Porsche does but if you unsettle it a little and grab it by the scruff of the neck it does thrill and entertain. Plus it's pretty tech-free when compared to other new M-power offerings.
Sagaris- not really an everyday car due to the low ride height but is actually suprisingly civilised in terms of the fact that although it sounds like it runs really 'rough' it can maintain low speeds in traffic without a great deal of effort. It feels like more of an emotional experience in comparison to the main-stream players and it's a car you'd buy with your heart as I found that every trip was an absolute joy and it's the only one out the three that pulled at the heart-strings when I had to give the keys back.
Keys on the table I'd take the TVR everytime but then as a one and only car it would be a close run thing between the other two. That said, if I was sitting at the side of the road having ripped the front of the TVR off on a unforseen bump I may have wished I'd gone for one of the more conventional choices.
Hmmm, pretty inconclusive then... www.pistonheads.com/gassing/icons/rolleyes.gif
DoctorD said:
DJC said:
Id LOVE to know htf moting bloody journalists reach such f**king stupid conclusions as to whether or not a specific car is any good as an everyday car. Put it this way, odds are it will be Vivian who does or at least takes part in the test, if he starts any of the "not good enough everyday" business Ill be having words with him next time I see him parked outside!
I agree that most journalist rarely have to use their own money and buy a daily driver, but are you 'seriously' suggesting that the Sagaris is on a par with a Cayman as an everyday car?
No. Mostly because I have a Sagaris and use it as my daily car, every day, to work and back, through the commuter route and then I use it to travel round Britain, on business and pleasure. I dont have a Cayman though, so cannot comment on that.
As a daily driver though I can say with much authority on the matter that the Sagaris does the job very very well. Dad has had 2 Boxsters, a 2.7 and an S, and Ive spent plenty of time in there also, pottering about, trips down to Goodwood and a cpl down to the house in France, so I have a decent idea of what a Boxster is like to with. If anybody tells me the interior of a modern Porsche ever feels like a special place then they are just flat out lying, esp a 996 era Porsche, because it just isnt. The leather and carpet quality on my Sagaris is leap yrs ahead of both Boxsters, the intimacy of the cockpit and the sheer simplicity of the execution. One thing Ill happily admit I didnt even realise until Ive had a few comments in the last cpl of weeks is that ppl can still smell the leather inside my car, after 12 months and 13k miles and they comment on it. Smell the leather inside a modern era Porka? You gotta be kidding me right? Cos you simple dont.
I have no problems with speed bumps. The only set I wont go over are those outside of the back of work, and to the best of my knowledge nobody in the Boxsters go over them either!
So, all in all, (and given that I actually have day to day running experience of a Sagaris and a cpl of Boxsters) yes I would much rather have the Sagaris as my car thanks, except for one and only one aspect...you can drop the roof on the Boxster for proper days. So the Cayman even loses that advantage.
Oh and of course there are the looks, the playground appeal, the on road respect and you dont have to deal with the Porsche snobbery OPC attitude. Dont know what Im talking about? Hmm, my local is Txxxxx OPC, they arent too bad there, but my salesman...a decent guy to be fair most of the time...is very much from the Tim Nice But Dim school and unless Im wearing the right school tie trying to get any concrete or non Porsche-Trying -To-Screw-Me info out of him is bloody impossible. Pxxxxxx up in Kxxxxxx... my old man's OPC, actually a very good and famous outfit, however they are very old school. The entire set up is aimed very much at customers of my father's age and generation. Whenever I go in with them and despite the fact I know earn far more than my father (mostly because hes retired), Ive got a £50k sat outside the dealership from one of their direct rivals, any interest I show is utterly ignored. Even when I mentioned my 997tt order Ive had for the last 21/2 yrs, Im still treated as "son", not a customer in my own right. Lastly Silvestone OPC, I spent 50 bloody mins being ignored in there about 2yrs when the Anniversary 911 40jahre thingy came out and I was looking at it. 50 f**king minutes and blanked, so I just plain walked out. In fact the only properly decent Porsche OPC Ive found who treated me pukka when I walked in was Swindon, who even though I was only 27, utterly in awe of the 996tt and back in those days considered I had no right to be in a Porsche dealership looking to buy, happily agreed a test drive and threw me the keys.
Contrast those experiences with my own TVR dealer and it is laughable. DM have never been anything except happy to see me, happy to arrange test drives and happy to chat. Granted, they are rather too fond of only giving me a Corsa as a courtesy car, but I dont mind, hell it saves me some fuel for a cpl of days!
So you know what, given all that, Ill take the TVR everyday of the week thanks, and unlike most, who say that as a figure of speech, I not only mean it literally I get to make the physical choice whenever I want!
See...you occasionally you may actually want to *talk* to owners about their actual expeiences before you print your 2 day opinions.
Oh and if you are about to discount me as some kind of anti-Porsche, TVR only snob...997tt on order for the last 2 1/2 yrs, and the 2nd car/hack car at home is a Rover 200 1.4. Terribly sorry if I ruin the stereotype.
Ill have my rattle and dummy back now pls!
Building on the above the idea that a modern TVR is not a daily drive is less than accurate. I drive my T350 every day from Ealing to Nottighill which involves speed bumps of every description,many way out of spec. I use it to pick up the shopping,take the dogs to the park,run the taxi sevice for the teenagers. Its been deep into France and -more worryingly deep into the North of England where it sniffed the air and promptly put on another 10 bhp/tonne.To dismiss the TVR-if they do-on practicallity terms and living with day to day is completely bogus-it just isn't true.
In addition to its general all-round competence on experince and creature comforts the interior remains a real delight-a very special place to be.The Porsche and BMW don't come even remotely close to offering the visual and tactile pleasures of the T350's cockpit-sorry-just no comparison. as to the engine noise-well I like a rumble not the muted PC correct hum that others seem to think implies quality.
As to the ride well this morning the ride felt a bit off,slightly less taut. I dropped into the gagage and checked the air in the tyres and yes they were down a little-one was as low as 21 psi,the rest at 22. The feel the car offers the driver is that sensitive if you bother to make the effort to learn the car that is.
I am quite prepared to beleive the BMW and Cayman offer equally compelling experiences but the point is they are different-not better.
It depends on what you like-and thats fair enough-but why don't the magazines just make that point and stop the pointless and frankly a bit lazy 1st,2nd 3rd nonesense that drives them to make conslusions that satisfy the majority of-lets be frank here-prestige and status obsessed 'drivers' who have never been north of 16 units in their lives
In addition to its general all-round competence on experince and creature comforts the interior remains a real delight-a very special place to be.The Porsche and BMW don't come even remotely close to offering the visual and tactile pleasures of the T350's cockpit-sorry-just no comparison. as to the engine noise-well I like a rumble not the muted PC correct hum that others seem to think implies quality.
As to the ride well this morning the ride felt a bit off,slightly less taut. I dropped into the gagage and checked the air in the tyres and yes they were down a little-one was as low as 21 psi,the rest at 22. The feel the car offers the driver is that sensitive if you bother to make the effort to learn the car that is.
I am quite prepared to beleive the BMW and Cayman offer equally compelling experiences but the point is they are different-not better.
It depends on what you like-and thats fair enough-but why don't the magazines just make that point and stop the pointless and frankly a bit lazy 1st,2nd 3rd nonesense that drives them to make conslusions that satisfy the majority of-lets be frank here-prestige and status obsessed 'drivers' who have never been north of 16 units in their lives
DJC said:
So, all in all, (and given that I actually have day to day running experience of a Sagaris and a cpl of Boxsters) yes I would much rather have the Sagaris as my car thanks, except for one and only one aspect...you can drop the roof on the Boxster for proper days. So the Cayman even loses that advantage.
Dave, you seem to have misunderstood my point. I have no doubt that 'you' may be very happy using your Sagaris every day, and I fully agree with you that neither of the competitors under discussion feel as special or provide the same sense of occasion. Also every owner will have their own individual experiences of what a car was like to run. I've had quite a few problems when running TVRs, but then I have also had problems with the Porsches or BMW's that I've owned. They tend to be different types of problem, the german's usually due to over-complicated electronics or some bit of technology that slipped through their kaizenquality management systems.
The Sagaris isn't designed to be a typical BMW or an Audi, which you just get in, switch on, and drive off. It's designed to involve, engage and thrill. Now I am assuming that since Autocar are comparing the Sagaris with a Cayman, they are therefore biasing their views on the more 'daily driver/single car' angle which although the Sagaris 'can' be used this way, I wouldn't say was its main strength.
We're just second guessing what the journos will say, so let's see what they actually publish on Wednesday.
Edited by DoctorD on Monday 24th July 11:17
sideways mostly said:
It depends on what you like-and thats fair enough-but why don't the magazines just make that point and stop the pointless and frankly a bit lazy 1st,2nd 3rd nonesense that drives them to make conslusions that satisfy the majority of-lets be frank here-prestige and status obsessed 'drivers' who have never been north of 16 units in their lives
Agreed. Too many mags state an opinion claiming it as gospel. Every opinion needs to be expressed within a clear context. But likewise there's nothing worse than reading an article where the journos just sit on the fence and sound more like a marketing brochure. I like to know which journalist wrote a certain article, and over time build up a character reference which I can use to value their viewpoint or not.
It's also tiring to keep trundling out the same sterotypes - which I sense many people are sensitive to, such as TVR's always break down, smell of glue and are badly made. But then likewise not all Porsches/BWMs lack character, individuality and are boring.
Unfortunately magazines (like newspapers) thrive on using headlines to grab our attention, hence the 1st, 2nd, 3rd nonsense, and likewise unfortunately they broadcast to a readership that in the main aren't true petrolheads. Sad, but true.
More than sad really. Once you set up an artificial and simplistic method and repeat it it becomes the 'yardstick' by which everything is measured.As an analogy I have a seperate interest in audio design and for years the accepted market yardstick has been set by hyper expensive CD players, linear amplifiers and loudspeakers with cones and magnets. This standard is far surpassed by pro-grade computers and soundcards,switchmode amplifiers and electrostatics- the effect is not subtle- but because of the existing 'standard' it will take years for this to emerge because journalists are driven by the need to placate editors who all have more than half a mind to the advertising revenue placed. Thats the part thats sad.
There's also a great deal of innacuracies in the published figures. I've given up talking to the magazine editors asking them to 'please' quote accurate vehichle weights. For example they always quote Porsche weights to the DIN standard (i.e. empty apart from oils and fluids, although not petrol), whereas BMW figures are quoted with an additional 110kg or so to include driver, luggage and 90% of fuel on board. What's the point of comparing cars on that basis? It's apples and pears. You also know you can't trust vehichle width or luggage capacity, because again these are quoted to differing standards (i.e. with or without including wing mirrors, and above or within the space defined by the parcel shelf).
If the magazines wish to make holier than thou judgements then they need to reinforce that integrity by being accurate in the stats and dimensions they also quote.
If the magazines wish to make holier than thou judgements then they need to reinforce that integrity by being accurate in the stats and dimensions they also quote.
Edited by DoctorD on Monday 24th July 16:53
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