a blow to tvr staying in blackpool!
Discussion
johnnytvr said:
AS I LIVE IN BLACKPOOL THE STORY IS THAT THE PRIDICTED SITE OF SQUIRES GATE FOR THE NEW TVR FACTORY IS A LOAD OF OLD BULL, I GOT THIS INFORMATION FROM A MEMBER OF THE COUNCIL WHO IS DEALING WITH THE RUSSIAN.
So how do you explain this?
From the local rag:
Blackpool Council leader Coun Roy Fisher said: "This is excellent news for everyone in Blackpool, especially those families directly involved in TVR who will all be very relieved by this announcement.
"Jobs for local people is one of the council's key priorities and it is therefore very gratifying that our work to continually talk to TVR and maintain a good relationship throughout has enabled them to reach this decision."
The problem for TVR is this: the market for high-performance cars is distinctly finite. With Porsche, BMW and Mercedes all offering fine sportscars that in any objective analysis beat the pants off a TVR (more reliable, less costly to own, easier to live with day-to-day, vastly better safety, better build quality etc. etc.) the market for TVRs is an enthusiasts one. And that, by definition is a very small market. Having studied the market VERY carefully for a major automotive client I can say that it is less than 1000 units. And the ADDRESSABLE market (i.e. those who may actually hand over cash to TVR is half that. So, 500 cars at £50K = £25M turnover. But recently, according to their accounts TVR has been losing £16M per annum on a turnover of, yep, you guessed it - £25M. In other words they have to slash costs by 70% or increase prices by 70%.
Make no mistake, I love TVR and would love to see them resurrected. But the odds are very much against it unless there are some MAJOR strategy changes - to whit:
1) an entry-level product at sub-£30K
2) a rationalisation to 2 products only - the company CANNOT generate the cash to invest in more
3) a recognition that ABS, traction control and air-bags are no longer optional (personally I hate all of the above - but me and my kind are literally a dying minority!)
4) a focus on build quality to ensure that at least in the 1st 12 months the cars are bullet-proof
5) A business plan predicated on a break-even point of say 350 cars a year.
Peter Wheeler saved TVR by going back to basics with the S2, building the achingly beautiful Griffith and creating a profitable one-make series with the Tuscans. A plan built on three similar legs would stand a chance - but you still need someone with faith and deep pockets to fund it.
Make no mistake, I love TVR and would love to see them resurrected. But the odds are very much against it unless there are some MAJOR strategy changes - to whit:
1) an entry-level product at sub-£30K
2) a rationalisation to 2 products only - the company CANNOT generate the cash to invest in more
3) a recognition that ABS, traction control and air-bags are no longer optional (personally I hate all of the above - but me and my kind are literally a dying minority!)
4) a focus on build quality to ensure that at least in the 1st 12 months the cars are bullet-proof
5) A business plan predicated on a break-even point of say 350 cars a year.
Peter Wheeler saved TVR by going back to basics with the S2, building the achingly beautiful Griffith and creating a profitable one-make series with the Tuscans. A plan built on three similar legs would stand a chance - but you still need someone with faith and deep pockets to fund it.
oldgriff said:
Having studied the market VERY carefully for a major automotive client I can say that it is less than 1000 units. .
What he said was he's planning to build it to 5000 over time
oldgriff said:
But the odds are very much against it unless there are some MAJOR strategy changes - to whit:
1) an entry-level product at sub-£30K.
oldgriff said:
2) a rationalisation to 2 products only - the company CANNOT generate the cash to invest in more.
oldgriff said:
3) a recognition that ABS, traction control and air-bags are no longer optional (personally I hate all of the above - but me and my kind are literally a dying minority!).
oldgriff said:
4) a focus on build quality to ensure that at least in the 1st 12 months the cars are bullet-proof.
oldgriff said:
5) A business plan predicated on a break-even point of say 350 cars a year..
You might want to read a little wider than the Blackpool comics because this has been DTD-not having a go but there is nothing new here.
I find it interesting that your study seemed to point in precisely the same direction the Russian said he is going-even if he is being a bit more adventurous.
Lets cover the basics while we are at it.
He got royally rolled over by PW-but he knows that.
He has released himself from paying PW £500k a year.
Has negotiated a good deal from the locals.
Has financial reserves to the limit of what?-well no one knows and that is the single most important point-he may be able to go on for a long time yet.
Yes he is a muppet-but he's a rich muppet and appears to be learning fast.
Just supose when he had taken over he had said he was going to establish the following
Improved testing and QC
Revised quality components
New factory
40 strong design/R&D centre with links to a university
Probable offshore manufacture to cut costs but maintaining the skills and Craftmanship elements developed at home (offshore rumoured to be SA-same plant as Noble )
Bought in V8 for proposed new Cerbera.
Planned association with big league automotive brands
Rebuild the brand in Europe and the the middle East and then in time the USA
Would he have got a reasonable response?
Lets not re-hash this old argument,its so old archeologists are taking an interest
Edited by sideways mostly for toffee spelling reasons
Edited by sideways mostly on Saturday 24th June 17:51
"What he said was he's planning to build it to 5000 over time"
- I know this is what Smolensky said. Frankly he's dreaming. This would require 3/4 of production to be sold overseas and that is a HUGE challenge. And quality control would have to be streets ahead if the company wasn't to get sunk by warranty claims. The trouble is, getting quality right costs big bucks - just ask Fiat how much they sunk into Ferrari! Smolensky may be rich but he is NOT that rich. And with no clear opportunity to make a buck he's not likely to get any of his fellow russians to invest. They've got rich by spotting good opportunities and TVR ain't one of those.
- I know this is what Smolensky said. Frankly he's dreaming. This would require 3/4 of production to be sold overseas and that is a HUGE challenge. And quality control would have to be streets ahead if the company wasn't to get sunk by warranty claims. The trouble is, getting quality right costs big bucks - just ask Fiat how much they sunk into Ferrari! Smolensky may be rich but he is NOT that rich. And with no clear opportunity to make a buck he's not likely to get any of his fellow russians to invest. They've got rich by spotting good opportunities and TVR ain't one of those.
oldgriff said:
"What he said was he's planning to build it to 5000 over time"
- I know this is what Smolensky said. Frankly he's dreaming.
- I know this is what Smolensky said. Frankly he's dreaming.
Its tent amount to saying "The next time I dump, its gonna be golden eggs"
Its ok saying someting, but making it work is an entirely different thing!
I hope all does go well though...TVR are my favourite marque
oldgriff said:
The problem for TVR is: Porsche, BMW and Mercedes all offering fine sportscars that in any objective analysis beat the pants off a TVR (more reliable, less costly to own, easier to live with day-to-day, vastly better safety, better build quality etc. etc.)
If reliability, costs, easier to live with, safe, build quality is all you want from a car, then go for a Liana. Further, there are lots and lots of intangibles that you've left out, just the ones where TVR excells. And even more, don't go believing that costs are lower for the German makes if you compare like for like.
Derek Smith said:
oldgriff said:
The problem for TVR is: Porsche, BMW and Mercedes all offering fine sportscars that in any objective analysis beat the pants off a TVR (more reliable, less costly to own, easier to live with day-to-day, vastly better safety, better build quality etc. etc.)
If reliability, costs, easier to live with, safe, build quality is all you want from a car, then go for a Liana. Further, there are lots and lots of intangibles that you've left out, just the ones where TVR excells. And even more, don't go believing that costs are lower for the German makes if you compare like for like.
I tend to stay out of these doomsday things usually...
but I have to ask.... why talk about stuff like this? whats the point? what good is coming out of it?
I much prefer reading the "TVR owners gardening" and "my willy's broken" threads...
There are *some* companies out there who WANT to see TVR fade away, FACT! Because they themselves are trying to muscle in on the market, but find it exceptionally hard to be constantly pushed aside by TVR's existing customer base and support...
PLEASE - all note, there are people who have motivations beyond honest general discussions on the future of TVR... the regular doomsday bunch is one set, disgruntled past employees and the competition are another ball-game, telling the two apart is a bloody nightmare on a forum, especially when they can sign up again under new id's and most using dynamic-ip broadband connections.... so my suggestion, if its accepted - REMOVE ALL DOOMSDAY THREADS! ONLY - allow threads which directly relate to *press releases*....
Will make this forum a much happier place.... its all in the spirit of driving, isnt that what TVR ownership is all about?
but I have to ask.... why talk about stuff like this? whats the point? what good is coming out of it?
I much prefer reading the "TVR owners gardening" and "my willy's broken" threads...
There are *some* companies out there who WANT to see TVR fade away, FACT! Because they themselves are trying to muscle in on the market, but find it exceptionally hard to be constantly pushed aside by TVR's existing customer base and support...
PLEASE - all note, there are people who have motivations beyond honest general discussions on the future of TVR... the regular doomsday bunch is one set, disgruntled past employees and the competition are another ball-game, telling the two apart is a bloody nightmare on a forum, especially when they can sign up again under new id's and most using dynamic-ip broadband connections.... so my suggestion, if its accepted - REMOVE ALL DOOMSDAY THREADS! ONLY - allow threads which directly relate to *press releases*....
Will make this forum a much happier place.... its all in the spirit of driving, isnt that what TVR ownership is all about?
Must admit all this speculation about what the hell is happening with TVR is getting a little tedious now. And please don't get me wrong, i don't blame my good fellow PHers for it, but those individuals who plant the actual root of all these rumours in teh first place, be it down the pub, idle imperssive chat at a meet, or what not - they must start somewhere. As the old saying goes, time will tell, so lets just let Father Time get on with it.
Folks - slightly off topic- but I have seen no mention of the TVR factory presence at Le Mans in the new village this year.
As we were milling around on Saturday morning I saw the flags, pocked my head through the opening and got speaking to a Russian chap (Don't believe it was NS).
Later, they had the Typhon on display and the stand was getting quite a lot of passing attention.
In the course of general chit chat, I commented that the factory needs to "do" more PR excercises such as this. All in all, I came away with a better feeling than before!
Nick.
As we were milling around on Saturday morning I saw the flags, pocked my head through the opening and got speaking to a Russian chap (Don't believe it was NS).
Later, they had the Typhon on display and the stand was getting quite a lot of passing attention.
In the course of general chit chat, I commented that the factory needs to "do" more PR excercises such as this. All in all, I came away with a better feeling than before!
Nick.
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