Alarm replacement options

[taylormj4]

Hi Folks,
Had the 'hot not-start' problem for years but only used to happen 2 or 3 times a year so just used to wait the 10mins then it would start again or bump start it. Now it happens more times than not and have been embarrassed several times at petrol stations.

I dont have the hot start kit fitted.

Understand it is probably the immobiliser relays that are causing the problem. When it has happened (once) when the car was on ramps at home, I managed to get a voltmeter on the starter and there were low volts there, like less than 11V. The IGN lights always dip as if it is trying to start so not the ignition barrel.

I know Carl Baker could do a complete electrics overhaul and that is around £800 (from memory).
That's quite a lot and I always do all the work on my car myself so interested in DIY solutions that where possible retain as much originality as possible, i.e. flash the indicators but no beeps when arming and maintain use of the microwave sensor and use the same dashboard lights for indicating armed etc.

Has anyone replaced the Meta. From some reading on the internet it seems there are replacements from Abacus and HF-Solutions. Has anyone used any of these or anything else and been pleased with the results?

[sixor8]

The immobiliser on my current Griff caused the car to completely cut out a couple of times. You're right to avoid the so-called hot-start kit, it's a sticking plaster solution. I bough a complete replacement kit from Abacus, an HPA Evo which was just a straight replace, unplug old, plug in new, with a new siren too. They no longer do that exact kit but they do an equivalent (they use 'Autowatch' now so cannot vouch for those). £325 plus postage I think, not had a problem since.

On a previous Chimaera a few years ago, I replaced the M36T immobiliser on its own because the fuel pump would not energise, but these are no longer available.

The only difference is that turning on the ignition and then pressing the remote fob does not work. You either have to relock and unlock if you are too slow to turn the key, or use the press in chip key. For extra money, you can have it coded to remote open the boot but you'll have to run an extra wire, I skimped and stuck with the button on the dash.

[GreenV8S]

From my experience the problem is as likely to be the wiring and connections as the components. The best way imo to make it reliable would be to completely remove the old alarm with its loom and install the new one from scratch. They don't need all that many connections.

[taylormj4]

GreenV8S said:

From my experience the problem is as likely to be the wiring and connections as the components. The best way imo to make it reliable would be to completely remove the old alarm with its loom and install the new one from scratch. They don't need all that many connections.

Thanks GreenV8S, is it difficult routing the new wires through the dash / bodywork. I've had teh dash off recently and can see the wires dissapearing into the firewall in all sorts of directions.

[Belle427]

Depends how much time and patience you have.
I spent a morning with a few cuppas working out what the wires were on my Chim with a Foxguard system.
Spent £100 on a Toad system and another morning swapping it over.
Toad don't exist anymore for some reason though.
Probably less hassle to buy a plug and play though.

[5.0ltr]

Dave is very helpful and gives free advice and can sell bits you may need.
https://www.hf-solutions.co.uk/

[taylormj4]

Belle427 said:

Depends how much time and patience you have.
I spent a morning with a few cuppas working out what the wires were on my Chim with a Foxguard system.
Spent £100 on a Toad system and another morning swapping it over.
Toad don't exist anymore for some reason though.
Probably less hassle to buy a plug and play though.

I'm pretty tolerant. Just had to take the entire upper dashboard off and all gauges out just to replace a windscreen wiper wheelbox!
Pretty handy with a multimeter too. Did you visually trace the wiring end to end or using a tester?

[Belle427]

Just a multimeter at alarm connectors.
Do the easy ones first such as central locking outputs, indicator triggers etc and it gradually gets easier!

[Basil Brush]

I read on the Abacus website that TVR ran the circuits through the wrong immobilizer relays and their replacement meta setups have the circuits swapped onto the correct ones. Could be worth trying?

[taylormj4]

Basil Brush said:

I read on the Abacus website that TVR ran the circuits through the wrong immobilizer relays and their replacement meta setups have the circuits swapped onto the correct ones. Could be worth trying?

Yeah, heard that. Never quite understood it as relay contacts are contacts, there isn't a wrong way round. The coil could be backwards in terms of the reverse bias diode to protect the coil but then the relay would never pickup, so no, never quite made sense to me that.

[Basil Brush]

taylormj4 said:

Basil Brush said:

I read on the Abacus website that TVR ran the circuits through the wrong immobilizer relays and their replacement meta setups have the circuits swapped onto the correct ones. Could be worth trying?

Yeah, heard that. Never quite understood it as relay contacts are contacts, there isn't a wrong way round. The coil could be backwards in terms of the reverse bias diode to protect the coil but then the relay would never pickup, so no, never quite made sense to me that.

I think its the current rating of the 2 relays, with TVR putting the bigger load through the smaller relay.

[TwinKam]

Basil Brush said:

taylormj4 said:

Basil Brush said:

I read on the Abacus website that TVR ran the circuits through the wrong immobilizer relays and their replacement meta setups have the circuits swapped onto the correct ones. Could be worth trying?

Yeah, heard that. Never quite understood it as relay contacts are contacts, there isn't a wrong way round. The coil could be backwards in terms of the reverse bias diode to protect the coil but then the relay would never pickup, so no, never quite made sense to me that.

I think its the current rating of the 2 relays, with TVR putting the bigger load through the smaller relay.

Correct.

[sixor8]

taylormj4 said:

Basil Brush said:

I read on the Abacus website that TVR ran the circuits through the wrong immobilizer relays and their replacement meta setups have the circuits swapped onto the correct ones. Could be worth trying?

Yeah, heard that. Never quite understood it as relay contacts are contacts, there isn't a wrong way round. The coil could be backwards in terms of the reverse bias diode to protect the coil but then the relay would never pickup, so no, never quite made sense to me that.

15 years with your Chimaera according to your profile and you've never heard this? It is a fact, and the 'hot-start' bits people fit just reduces the current going through the relay to the starter solenoid. It will still eventually fail. It's happened to me on a 2000 reg Chimaera, a 1996 reg Chimaera (where I had to squeeze the immobiliser to get the car to start) and now my current Griff. This one was more worrying because the car would just cut out at 60 mph. So, probably a slightly different issue, but a new alarm AND immobiliser sorted it.

[taylormj4]

sixor8 said:

15 years with your Chimaera according to your profile and you've never heard this? It is a fact, and the 'hot-start' bits people fit just reduces the current going through the relay to the starter solenoid. It will still eventually fail. It's happened to me on a 2000 reg Chimaera, a 1996 reg Chimaera (where I had to squeeze the immobiliser to get the car to start) and now my current Griff. This one was more worrying because the car would just cut out at 60 mph. So, probably a slightly different issue, but a new alarm AND immobiliser sorted it.

Hi Sixor, 21 years actually and yes I have heard it before as my post says.."yeah I heard that" and "never quite made sense". If they used the wrong rating relays the contacts should just burn through and go open circuit fairly quickly, certainly not just keep going year on year at the same 'only just about works' condition. Also why does it matter what temperature the engine is at, the relays are in a box under the dashboard nowhere near the engine. Yeah they might warm slightly when you push current through them to start the engine but that should dissipate in seconds if not minutes. Certainly not 30mins later. I can stop my engine immediately after starting (when the relays would be warmest) and it will start again fine. Why does leaving the engine to cool down for 10-15mins help the relays that already havent been used for 30mins. I think it is more to do with the guage and condition of the wiring that is run past the engine or maybe a combination of both. And finally, if it is the relays, the hot start kit should resolve it permanently, which it doesn't.

[Basil Brush]

taylormj4 said:

sixor8 said:

15 years with your Chimaera according to your profile and you've never heard this? It is a fact, and the 'hot-start' bits people fit just reduces the current going through the relay to the starter solenoid. It will still eventually fail. It's happened to me on a 2000 reg Chimaera, a 1996 reg Chimaera (where I had to squeeze the immobiliser to get the car to start) and now my current Griff. This one was more worrying because the car would just cut out at 60 mph. So, probably a slightly different issue, but a new alarm AND immobiliser sorted it.

Hi Sixor, 21 years actually and yes I have heard it before as my post says.."yeah I heard that" and "never quite made sense". If they used the wrong rating relays the contacts should just burn through and go open circuit fairly quickly, certainly not just keep going year on year at the same 'only just about works' condition. Also why does it matter what temperature the engine is at, the relays are in a box under the dashboard nowhere near the engine. Yeah they might warm slightly when you push current through them to start the engine but that should dissipate in seconds if not minutes. Certainly not 30mins later. I can stop my engine immediately after starting (when the relays would be warmest) and it will start again fine. Why does leaving the engine to cool down for 10-15mins help the relays that already havent been used for 30mins. I think it is more to do with the guage and condition of the wiring that is run past the engine or maybe a combination of both. And finally, if it is the relays, the hot start kit should resolve it permanently, which it doesn't.

It's not the temperature of the immobiliser, it's the temp of the engine and starter motor. Might be worth reading the section on the Abacus website where it explains it.

[taylormj4]

Basil Brush said:

It's not the temperature of the immobiliser, it's the temp of the engine and starter motor. Might be worth reading the section on the Abacus website where it explains it.

Hi Basil,
Yeah read that. Same explanation as has been banded around for years. Still doesn't explain it for me. If the solenoid demands more current when hot that shouldn't be a problem unless the voltage drop through the circuit means that there then isnt sufficient voltage at the starter for it to operate. Having the wrong relay shouldnt affect that unless it fails in which case you would have an open circuit. Granted you may have a short period where teh contacts are damaged and create a higher resistance in the cct but not for years. Relays are non-linear components (on or off), there's no in-between. I think it is to do with high resistance joints somewhere in the cct, but not in the relays. Yeah having the wrong relays wired in may mean one day they fail but I dont believe they can cause the hot start issue. I'm intending to run a new, thicker gauge wire to the starter to see if that fixes it.

I know I need to replace the alarm for other reasons / other signs that show it is on its way out.

[RobXjcoupe]

Currently I have the dash and interior out of my 95 Griff.
The alarm I thought was playing up as I ran a bypass to the starter solenoid to get the engine to turn over. Then no fuel pump. I gave up and specialist got involved, they said alarm needs replacing......but........alarm worked only to lock unlock the car. Fuel pump was faulty so was replaced. Ecu had new relay and it all fired up.
Alarm is a foxguard. That was sent away for repair. It checked out as everything worked perfectly. I asked about the TVR wrong relay thing and was told both the alarm circuits controlling those circuits had the same power ratings. Advice was check all connections. That I did and wow was there a lot of grotty connections from grotty scotch locked hot start mod and green coloured brass terminals.
The rats nest of wires on the battery is awful and prone to loose connections due to it all moving.

I’ve spent a fair few hours now mounting the ecu solidly and making brackets holding relays, cleaning connections and repairing poor wiring issues. The worst issue is the factory strapping the loom to the water heater pipes! All these add up to poor conductivity and possible circuit failures.

With what I’ve found out I don’t think the alarm is the culprit. It’s the rest of the poorly fitted wiring together with corroded connections that cause the issues between components.

Hope that helps especially if you have the dash off.....good luck

[Belle427]

You can add a starter relay to the existing fusebox with a bit of wiring knowledge.
Some say this isn't recommended due to the fusebox age but I ignored that!
I did this and also upgraded the cable csa to both stater solenoid and starter itself.
It's well known the cable csa is borderline on this particular circuit.

[taylormj4]

Sounds good both, thanks. Going to replace the alarm and immobiliser with the latest META type and alos look at wiring to the starter.