Noise Legislation
Discussion
An article caught my attention today - new legislation to fine owners and potentially take cars off the road if their car is putting out more than 74dB - about the volume of a toilet flush. Looking into this further via the RAC, it seems that cars built before 2016 will have to put out less than 82dB. Not clear yet as to how this is measured, whether at idle etc. but most TVR’s I guess would be over 82dB yet would have met the legislative requirements when new. According to RAC guy, legislation can be applied retrospectively to change standards which cars would have met previously. This appears to be an egregious infringement of people’s right to use classic cars which met all the standards when new. Time to write to our MP’s and involve our car clubs?
Extremely unlikely any changes would be retrospective to the standard when a car was new. Seatbelts, catalytic converters,reversing lamps, rear fog lamps etc all became mandatory from a specific date. The UK has never had a policy of retrospective legislation. However, many cars, as we know, are way louder than standard. If it's to enforce this, it may be welcomed. 
About the only thing, by association, was that small children have to by law, be restrained in a vehicle. So although pre 1981 cars, for example, don't require rear seat belts for adults, you must have to them fitted to carry children.
About the only thing, by association, was that small children have to by law, be restrained in a vehicle. So although pre 1981 cars, for example, don't require rear seat belts for adults, you must have to them fitted to carry children.
RAC legal dept seemed to think it was retrospective. There is a sort of precedent with leaded fuel - classic cars had to be adapted if they were to continue being usable. Although strictly that related to the fuel not the car. There might be an issue with ‘noise cameras’ automatically sending out fines, and I doubt they would be able to differentiate a car which was legal as of date of first registration. I don’t even know how my Cerb was legal in 1999 as it sets off car alarms and frightens children of a nervous disposition! But I presume it met all type approvals.
It sounds like a typical Daily Express "clickbait" article. They publish them regularly.
As usual with those "clickbait", there is no new legislation. There isn't even a reliable way to catch anyone either. It isn't even current news! The law has not been updated since 1988! Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 are what apply.
There was a noise camera trial in 2019. Nothing then happened until April of this year when the then Transport Secretary, Shapps announced funding for more trials at 4 sites in England & Wales. I do not know whether this actually went anywhere other than Shapps' desk, and he is no longer the Transport Secretary anyway.
This is the study from 2019 if you want to bore yourself with the 103 pages of it:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
It was aimed at areas where local residents suffer from noise from anti-social driving. The Government admit that the Police have existing powers, but trouble gathering evidence, hence the "latest phase of noise trials".
Noise limits were first introduced in 1929, and have progressively been reduced. In 1978 they were 82db for example. The current limit was imposed in 2016. There is no retrospective application. That would be impossible, because you would either have to redesign the whole exhaust system or be forced to scrap or never drive your classic car, and that is not what the law says, or intends either. It is the same with emissions for example.
Insofar as most TVRs are concerned (first used after 1st October 1983 to when they went out of business) the limit is 80db. If a car passed type approval, and you have not modified the factory exhaust set-up, then it must be compliant. Insofar as TVR is concerned, you cannot even look up the data because TVR is not listed on the Vehicle Certification Agency list!
The Police do not have any noise monitoring equipment, and most forces admit, that they just rely on their own judgment. If you read the 103 page document above, you will see that one force had a road safety initiative, and stopped motorists as part of it. Just 2% of the reports following a stop were for excessive noise.
That won't surprise anyone. We all know the areas and the type of people that drive ordinary cars with a drainpipe exhaust on the back, lowered to the floor, lights underneath and more speakers than a Festival, and how often do you see them stopped? These are the ones that the trial is aimed at. The ones that cruise round and round housing estates making a nuisance of themselves, night after night, not some classic TVR that is hardly ever driven anyway.
If you have a "standard" TVR, then there is no problem, because they are no louder than a current Ferrari or an F-Type Jaguar V8, when the exhaust bypass valves are open. You see a Ferrari pull away from the lights and it is quiet, then it hits the specified RPM, the valves open and it is suddenly blaring. A V8 F-type is exceptionally loud on start-up.
If you have modified your TVR with some straight through pipes and some "cherry bombs" on the back, then you may have a problem with a Police Officer exercising their judgment, but for most people, that would make the car unusable and they would modify back towards standard anyway.
As usual with those "clickbait", there is no new legislation. There isn't even a reliable way to catch anyone either. It isn't even current news! The law has not been updated since 1988! Section 42 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and The Road Vehicles (Construction & Use) Regulations 1986 are what apply.
There was a noise camera trial in 2019. Nothing then happened until April of this year when the then Transport Secretary, Shapps announced funding for more trials at 4 sites in England & Wales. I do not know whether this actually went anywhere other than Shapps' desk, and he is no longer the Transport Secretary anyway.
This is the study from 2019 if you want to bore yourself with the 103 pages of it:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...
It was aimed at areas where local residents suffer from noise from anti-social driving. The Government admit that the Police have existing powers, but trouble gathering evidence, hence the "latest phase of noise trials".
Noise limits were first introduced in 1929, and have progressively been reduced. In 1978 they were 82db for example. The current limit was imposed in 2016. There is no retrospective application. That would be impossible, because you would either have to redesign the whole exhaust system or be forced to scrap or never drive your classic car, and that is not what the law says, or intends either. It is the same with emissions for example.
Insofar as most TVRs are concerned (first used after 1st October 1983 to when they went out of business) the limit is 80db. If a car passed type approval, and you have not modified the factory exhaust set-up, then it must be compliant. Insofar as TVR is concerned, you cannot even look up the data because TVR is not listed on the Vehicle Certification Agency list!
The Police do not have any noise monitoring equipment, and most forces admit, that they just rely on their own judgment. If you read the 103 page document above, you will see that one force had a road safety initiative, and stopped motorists as part of it. Just 2% of the reports following a stop were for excessive noise.
That won't surprise anyone. We all know the areas and the type of people that drive ordinary cars with a drainpipe exhaust on the back, lowered to the floor, lights underneath and more speakers than a Festival, and how often do you see them stopped? These are the ones that the trial is aimed at. The ones that cruise round and round housing estates making a nuisance of themselves, night after night, not some classic TVR that is hardly ever driven anyway.
If you have a "standard" TVR, then there is no problem, because they are no louder than a current Ferrari or an F-Type Jaguar V8, when the exhaust bypass valves are open. You see a Ferrari pull away from the lights and it is quiet, then it hits the specified RPM, the valves open and it is suddenly blaring. A V8 F-type is exceptionally loud on start-up.
If you have modified your TVR with some straight through pipes and some "cherry bombs" on the back, then you may have a problem with a Police Officer exercising their judgment, but for most people, that would make the car unusable and they would modify back towards standard anyway.
Edited by LucyP on Tuesday 27th September 15:37
There is a noise assessment at MoT test time, sort of. But it is not a specific dB level, just that it should be judged as ' similar to vehicles of that type, age and engine size.' May 2018 revision states:
"Exhaust noise from the vehicle must not be unreasonably above the noise level normally expected from a similar vehicle with a standard silencer in average condition..."
Many motorcycles, for example I know have had 'exhaust noisy' as an advisory but very rarely a failure.
May 2018 revision states:"Exhaust noise from the vehicle must not be unreasonably above the noise level normally expected from a similar vehicle with a standard silencer in average condition..."
Many motorcycles, for example I know have had 'exhaust noisy' as an advisory but very rarely a failure.
So far, so reassuring! Thanks for the comprehensive responses. However we had better keep an eye on our legislators. LEZ are having an effect and in Scotland, if you have the misfortune to own a sports car older than 2006 in a city centre LEZ, you will be charged a penalty for each use from 1/6/24, £60 for first time then doubling for each occasion within 90 days, to £240 for the 4th occasion.
True about politicians, but don't forget - they only police the policeable. ULEZ is easy. You just need a camera, and it's just about raising money. They don't really care about the environment. I can take the oldest, most polluting banger into a ULEZ, I just need to pay. Noise is much more difficult. As I said earlier, they are still testing the equipment, and even if it is ever brought in, it is likely to be a drive-by test, and only in certain areas.
And as for your numbers for the proposed ULEZ for Scotland, it is only Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow city centres. Most of them are motorist unfriendly now. Who wants to negotiate speed bumps, narrowed streets, and expensive parking charges and sit in a jam in a TVR, and pay a ridiculous fine for the pleasure (although your figures are reduced by 50% if you pay within 14 days). It's easier to just use public transport now for city centres. The day ticket on Lothian buses is £4.40. Edinburgh parking is from £3.10 an hour to £5.60 an hour, the closer to the centre you get.
And as for your numbers for the proposed ULEZ for Scotland, it is only Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh and Glasgow city centres. Most of them are motorist unfriendly now. Who wants to negotiate speed bumps, narrowed streets, and expensive parking charges and sit in a jam in a TVR, and pay a ridiculous fine for the pleasure (although your figures are reduced by 50% if you pay within 14 days). It's easier to just use public transport now for city centres. The day ticket on Lothian buses is £4.40. Edinburgh parking is from £3.10 an hour to £5.60 an hour, the closer to the centre you get.
That is untrue MustangGT. It isn't common, but there are quite a few examples of retrospective civil and criminal laws over the years. There are some examples here, if you are bored and want to read them:
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docu...
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docu...
A few years ago I was being held in a line of traffic by some coppers in my not quiet Camaro. One of them wandered up to me, motioned me to open the window and then said "...that sounds lovely, you couldn't give it a good old rev could you?..." Always happy to oblige with requests from the BiB 
Some good quality info and anecdotes here! Agree with LucyP that perhaps we can and should avoid taking TVRs into the city centre - but the Scottish LEZ really sabotage the few people who live in the centre and who have a petrol car, perhaps a special sports car sitting in a lockup, older than about 2004. And I am not aware of any exemption for classic cars over 40y old in Scotland.
There is an exemption, although the wording is a bit confusing at present, and cannot be right!
https://www.lowemissionzones.scot/get-ready/exempt...
"Some historical vehicles are exempt from LEZ entry requirements. Exemptions will only apply if the vehicle was manufactured or registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 for the first time at least 30 years ago or if the vehicle is no longer in production and has not been changed from its original state."
So a 30 year old vehicle is exempt, so when the LEZ is enforced in 2024, you will be fine with 1993 or earlier TVRs initially.
I am sure the wording is supposed to say "AND if the vehicle....." not "OR", but maybe they are happy to have a modified 30 year old car, but not a 29 year old one? Or perhaps they read these forums and know a lot about TVRs and understand that you cannot take a catalytic converter out of a 1991 TVR, because it won't have one, but you can and people regularly do, from a 1995, and so you have to keep it in to be able to drive into the LEZ. How they would know whether it was in or out, is another matter entirely!
Anyway, on the current wording, any TVR is exempt, providing it hasn't been altered, as no TVR is currently in production.
The other exemption that would work is if you are a disabled person with a blue badge, or you are carrying such a person as a passenger:
"Transport Scotland is developing an online scheme for Blue Badge holders to register vehicles they are travelling in.
Blue Badge holders will be able to register for a long-term or short-term exemption to drive in a LEZ. If the journey is a one-off or irregular visit to a LEZ, Blue Badge holders will be able to register for a short-term exemption to cover their travel. The exemption applies to any vehicle whether the Blue Badge holder is the driver or the passenger."
https://www.lowemissionzones.scot/get-ready/exempt...
"Some historical vehicles are exempt from LEZ entry requirements. Exemptions will only apply if the vehicle was manufactured or registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 for the first time at least 30 years ago or if the vehicle is no longer in production and has not been changed from its original state."
So a 30 year old vehicle is exempt, so when the LEZ is enforced in 2024, you will be fine with 1993 or earlier TVRs initially.
I am sure the wording is supposed to say "AND if the vehicle....." not "OR", but maybe they are happy to have a modified 30 year old car, but not a 29 year old one? Or perhaps they read these forums and know a lot about TVRs and understand that you cannot take a catalytic converter out of a 1991 TVR, because it won't have one, but you can and people regularly do, from a 1995, and so you have to keep it in to be able to drive into the LEZ. How they would know whether it was in or out, is another matter entirely!
Anyway, on the current wording, any TVR is exempt, providing it hasn't been altered, as no TVR is currently in production.
The other exemption that would work is if you are a disabled person with a blue badge, or you are carrying such a person as a passenger:
"Transport Scotland is developing an online scheme for Blue Badge holders to register vehicles they are travelling in.
Blue Badge holders will be able to register for a long-term or short-term exemption to drive in a LEZ. If the journey is a one-off or irregular visit to a LEZ, Blue Badge holders will be able to register for a short-term exemption to cover their travel. The exemption applies to any vehicle whether the Blue Badge holder is the driver or the passenger."
Edited by LucyP on Wednesday 28th September 14:03
alabbasi said:
It sounds like another way to force electric
It's really about forcing public transport. Edinburgh has lots of 20 mph zones; lots of cobbles that are uncomfortable to drive over in a sports car; lots of jams and expensive parking.Edinburgh has invested (wasted) lots of money on park and ride and public transport schemes. The Scottish government is brilliant at it! How much of the English taxpayer's money can we waste today, Hamish?
There is the tram scheme that doesn't go to and from where it was supposed, was very late, and miles over budget, and is so rapid, that it it actually faster to use the bus to the airport! There was a public inquiry about the tram scheme.
Then there is the ferry fiasco, which even has it's own wikipedia page. There have been several inquiries into that fiasco. There was a call for a criminal probe only yesterday!
The "green agenda" is killing city centres. Congestion charges, ULEZ charges, expensive parking. Just sit at home, order online, and pay the delivery charge if there is one, which is cheaper than 1 hour's parking, let alone the rest!
There are not even 150 public EV charging points across the whole of the city, and some of those are the slow 7KV ones like you can install at home. Still, when Scotland leaves the UK, and whilst it is at the back of the queue waiting to rejoin the EU, and sorting out all the requirements that it currently doesn't meet, I am sure there will be some money left-over to fund some more charging points.......
Leaving you with two realistic choices - use the bus, or use your petrol powered TVR (see my earlier post!)
Edited by LucyP on Wednesday 28th September 14:23
LucyP said:
That is untrue MustangGT. It isn't common, but there are quite a few examples of retrospective civil and criminal laws over the years. There are some examples here, if you are bored and want to read them:
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docu...
All those mentioned are to rectify errors in an existing law, not to create a new law.https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/docu...
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