Servicing over valued in second hand sales?
Discussion
Hi, for discussion. I realise there are TVR owners ranging from professional engineers right through to mechanically 'challenged' as with every car. So, there is not one answer.
But, I get the feeling that the craving for service history is driven by new car dealers, as an ongoing income thread, hence the need for a service stamp each year driven by money not necessity, perhaps.
My point being, people look for service history. But, I have viewed many cars with great service history that are in fact in poor condition. Servicing only covers the basics, it is not restoration, or even maintenance of anything but the essentials.
I am just looking at my car and thinking about the need to service this autumn, it will have had 100 plus hours spent on upkeep (by me, a professional engineer) and driven 2000 carful dry miles. In that time there is not a service need, oil certainly not worn out, brake fluid still within its lifespan. Seems wasteful to me to service it (at a garage) just for a stamp in a book? Are we all living in the wake of a 'must service' culture established to line someone’s pockets? (Not TVR dealers, to be clear, but, culturally).
Thoughts?
Nic
But, I get the feeling that the craving for service history is driven by new car dealers, as an ongoing income thread, hence the need for a service stamp each year driven by money not necessity, perhaps.
My point being, people look for service history. But, I have viewed many cars with great service history that are in fact in poor condition. Servicing only covers the basics, it is not restoration, or even maintenance of anything but the essentials.
I am just looking at my car and thinking about the need to service this autumn, it will have had 100 plus hours spent on upkeep (by me, a professional engineer) and driven 2000 carful dry miles. In that time there is not a service need, oil certainly not worn out, brake fluid still within its lifespan. Seems wasteful to me to service it (at a garage) just for a stamp in a book? Are we all living in the wake of a 'must service' culture established to line someone’s pockets? (Not TVR dealers, to be clear, but, culturally).
Thoughts?
Nic
Pretty much every guide/comment I see regarding a TVR purchase advises to buy on condition.
Therefore the hours you’ve put in should add value to your car if it has improved the condition.
However, the comfort of knowing the car has been routinely serviced by a specialist also adds value in my opinion…as their skill/ experience will ensure things are done correctly (most of the time) and that nothing is missed.
Therefore the hours you’ve put in should add value to your car if it has improved the condition.
However, the comfort of knowing the car has been routinely serviced by a specialist also adds value in my opinion…as their skill/ experience will ensure things are done correctly (most of the time) and that nothing is missed.
glow worm said:
Regardless of mileage I get the oil and filter changed every 12 months, oil deteriorates over time, I don't know what you mean by "oil certainly not worn out" ?
https://youtu.be/T-yt5a1cWd4This is well worth a watch, certainly opened my eyes.
As to the OP, it is quite topical for me at the moment, as I'm doing everything on my TVR myself, and have also decided to do the servicing on my GT86 too, as I just can't justify £350 to change oil/filter and pollen filter, especially as I do less than 5k miles a year.
I am aware that it might effect the value of my cars, particularly the 86, which currently has full Toyota history. I've decided to keep both cars indefinitely, and so the value issue holds less weight for me in that regard.
Buy on condition has to be the best advice for TVRs, and probably Lotus too, and older classics.
Hi. Great comments so far. To follow up on the oil degrades over time. Are you sure?
Oil in the can has no use by date, that I am aware of. Oil degrades with use, the additives break down with mileage.
So, I propose that oil does not break down over time, only with usage.
The other possibility for oil is contamination, with petroleum or water. But, easy to check for this by smell and colour.
Best
Nic
Ps. Watch the video! I did after I posted this comment, luckily I am not wrong…
Oil in the can has no use by date, that I am aware of. Oil degrades with use, the additives break down with mileage.
So, I propose that oil does not break down over time, only with usage.
The other possibility for oil is contamination, with petroleum or water. But, easy to check for this by smell and colour.
Best
Nic
Ps. Watch the video! I did after I posted this comment, luckily I am not wrong…
Edited by NicBowman on Wednesday 25th May 10:24
I prefer doing all maintenance myself, but I am an engineer and have carried out full restorations in the past so I do have the knowledge and skills. My experience of any dealer work, regardless of make and model, is that it is done to a price, is always the bare bones of what is needed, and very often ends up being followed by issues. Some are better than others of course. I replace rusty nuts and bolts, clips, etc when doing work and also replace parts I see as I am going such as coolant pipes, which may not have been why I am working on the car, but get noticed during whatever it is I am doing. Dealers never do this. Or at least will charge more if they do. I don't like garage hourly charges either!! I replaced all the front suspension links and bushes on my Mercedes CLK 320 this year. It cost me £120. The local garage quiets £760 and I didn't even go near Mercedes main dealer to ask them for a quote!!
Only thing I can say is that there are specialists and then others who claim...
Proper specialists and servicing can pick up things you might miss.
Case in point is I moved from one previously respected Indy to another well known one when the previous one did poor work, damaged my paintwork, fobbed me off...
The new specialist picked up on things that needed doing, work I'd actually paid for that hadn't been done, without knowing, even down to some minor things I hadn't noticed (handbrake light not working) etc.
It might not add value, but it's another selling point, another thing for the purchaser to feel safe if it has a history
Proper specialists and servicing can pick up things you might miss.
Case in point is I moved from one previously respected Indy to another well known one when the previous one did poor work, damaged my paintwork, fobbed me off...
The new specialist picked up on things that needed doing, work I'd actually paid for that hadn't been done, without knowing, even down to some minor things I hadn't noticed (handbrake light not working) etc.
It might not add value, but it's another selling point, another thing for the purchaser to feel safe if it has a history
Here’s an interesting example, ironically just happened. I run a VW camper, 3 years old. Just needed to change a flat tyre and found wheel would not come off under any amount of bashing. Eventually got it off to find the hub horribly rusted. This has had three dealer services, clearly no one thought to put a bit of lube on the hub..,. If you did it yourself, it would be bleedin obvious.
NicBowman said:
Here’s an interesting example, ironically just happened. I run a VW camper, 3 years old. Just needed to change a flat tyre and found wheel would not come off under any amount of bashing. Eventually got it off to find the hub horribly rusted. This has had three dealer services, clearly no one thought to put a bit of lube on the hub..,. If you did it yourself, it would be bleedin obvious.
DIY servicing carried out by knowledgeable people is known to be as good as or better than the same work carried out by those in the tradeDIYers aren't in a rush to make money
If you’re happy to take a hit on the ultimate value then service it yourself.
A compromise I’ve always had is to work with specialist. Get them to do the annual service, I do any big stuff. You keep the service history, and still get to tinker, have access to knowledge with said specialist.
Have done this on my Tuscan, R8 and the Ferrari I’ve got coming. Have already discussed the same approach with that specialist.
A compromise I’ve always had is to work with specialist. Get them to do the annual service, I do any big stuff. You keep the service history, and still get to tinker, have access to knowledge with said specialist.
Have done this on my Tuscan, R8 and the Ferrari I’ve got coming. Have already discussed the same approach with that specialist.
I've found that cars with a full dealer or reputable specialist service history sell more easily and command a higher price. Makes sense as potential buyers have no idea how competent DIYers are unless they know them personally. If you are never going to sell it really doesn't matter.
So I get a TVR garage service every year, while doing any other work needed (and I'm capable of), myself.
So I get a TVR garage service every year, while doing any other work needed (and I'm capable of), myself.
There are as many different types of seller as there are buyers. I guess you are looking for a match as there is no right answer.
The only reason I have ever looked at a service book when buying a car is to see if there is a reason to argue money off the asking price. I give no weight to the service book to indicate the condition of the car, or even if its had an oil change.
In the past I've been to visit their cars, decided I am seriously interested and for what price depending on seeing it on my home ramp. Some buyers happily follow me back to the house and I make them a cup of tea while looking under the car etc, some politely say no.as the idea of a close inspection is so alien to them when selling a car.
The strange thing is if I may an initial offer and then look at the car on the ramp and there are no surprises I am quite prepared to up the price as I find that very reassuring. Mostly thats the case
The only reason I have ever looked at a service book when buying a car is to see if there is a reason to argue money off the asking price. I give no weight to the service book to indicate the condition of the car, or even if its had an oil change.
In the past I've been to visit their cars, decided I am seriously interested and for what price depending on seeing it on my home ramp. Some buyers happily follow me back to the house and I make them a cup of tea while looking under the car etc, some politely say no.as the idea of a close inspection is so alien to them when selling a car.
The strange thing is if I may an initial offer and then look at the car on the ramp and there are no surprises I am quite prepared to up the price as I find that very reassuring. Mostly thats the case
I haven't had a TVR for a while now, it never occurred to me to look for a service history when I bought though. A set of receipts for oil, filters and other parts maybe, but on an enthusiast car a stamped service book, no.
FSH is for mainstream cars like VW, Toyota etc. Even then if there were receipts for consumables for oil services in between garage services on an older car I'd accept those. It is things like cambelt and other specific items I'd want to see from a garage.
FSH is for mainstream cars like VW, Toyota etc. Even then if there were receipts for consumables for oil services in between garage services on an older car I'd accept those. It is things like cambelt and other specific items I'd want to see from a garage.
NicBowman said:
Here’s an interesting example, ironically just happened. I run a VW camper, 3 years old. Just needed to change a flat tyre and found wheel would not come off under any amount of bashing. Eventually got it off to find the hub horribly rusted. This has had three dealer services, clearly no one thought to put a bit of lube on the hub..,. If you did it yourself, it would be bleedin obvious.
How on earth do you clean your vehicles without taking the wheels off ? 
My BMW and TVRs wheels come off every 3/4 months for a proper chassis/wheel arch clean.
glow worm said:
NicBowman said:
Here’s an interesting example, ironically just happened. I run a VW camper, 3 years old. Just needed to change a flat tyre and found wheel would not come off under any amount of bashing. Eventually got it off to find the hub horribly rusted. This has had three dealer services, clearly no one thought to put a bit of lube on the hub..,. If you did it yourself, it would be bleedin obvious.
How on earth do you clean your vehicles without taking the wheels off ? My BMW and TVRs wheels come off every 3/4 months for a proper chassis/wheel arch clean.
I don't do any spannering/own servicing. When buying a car, I would always check a service history, just to see what has at least been claimed to have been done (backed up by invoices), & by which particular garage or specialist, some of whom I'd have more faith than others. MOT &/or other checks also carried out. If buying privately, then area/building would be taken into account, if the owner has a garage setup & looks capable of doing their own servicing, & other evidence, that would make me happier to buy, as enthusiasts more likely to go the extra mile on their pride & joy. Test drive should seal whether to buy or not. There will always be a risk on a 2nd hand car, you can only try & minimise it to the best of your abilities.
It is true that a car with a full dealer service history will most probably fetch a higher selling price, but if you then take away the cost of the servicing, and from what I can see, TVR servicing is not cheap, then overall it is probably cheaper to do it yourself if you can!
No point it selling for an extra £5000 if you have had to spend £6000 on servicing to get it!!!
It is very much down to the individual of course and I fully respect each and everyones decision about this. I presently have a 350i on ramps with the rear wheels off doing a 'body on' chassis renovation. Luckily I have no major rust issues, just a bit of surface rust and a lot of flaking white powder coat! BNut to be honest I am at my best when covered in oil and grime!!
Other recent projects:
Rover restored.....
No point it selling for an extra £5000 if you have had to spend £6000 on servicing to get it!!!
It is very much down to the individual of course and I fully respect each and everyones decision about this. I presently have a 350i on ramps with the rear wheels off doing a 'body on' chassis renovation. Luckily I have no major rust issues, just a bit of surface rust and a lot of flaking white powder coat! BNut to be honest I am at my best when covered in oil and grime!!
Other recent projects:
Rover restored.....
keynsham said:
It is true that a car with a full dealer service history will most probably fetch a higher selling price, but if you then take away the cost of the servicing, and from what I can see, TVR servicing is not cheap, then overall it is probably cheaper to do it yourself if you can!
No point it selling for an extra 5000 if you have had to spend 6000 on servicing to get it!!!
It is very much down to the individual of course and I fully respect each and everyones decision about this. I presently have a 350i on ramps with the rear wheels off doing a 'body on' chassis renovation. Luckily I have no major rust issues, just a bit of surface rust and a lot of flaking white powder coat! BNut to be honest I am at my best when covered in oil and grime!!
Other recent projects:
Rover restored.....
What he says ^^^^^^No point it selling for an extra 5000 if you have had to spend 6000 on servicing to get it!!!
It is very much down to the individual of course and I fully respect each and everyones decision about this. I presently have a 350i on ramps with the rear wheels off doing a 'body on' chassis renovation. Luckily I have no major rust issues, just a bit of surface rust and a lot of flaking white powder coat! BNut to be honest I am at my best when covered in oil and grime!!
Other recent projects:
Rover restored.....
Loving that Rover. Very nice mix.
Did all those Rovers come with that bonnet?
Very sporty looking saloon car indeed.
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