Problem after respray - advice needed please.

[AlexanderV8]

Hello gents. I had my Chimaera front end resprayed around 2 months ago, and this week I noticed an area just forward of the drivers offside bonnet vent where it appeared as though the paint was too thick and had run. I didn’t notice this when I picked the car up.

I contacted the sprayers about this issue and after an ‘investigation’ they have told me that the gel coat had lifted in this area and are absolving themselves of responsibility, although they are offering me a ‘discount’ on another bonnet respray. They are saying the problem could have been caused by the last respray.

The car was last resprayed around 8 years ago. The only issue necessitating another respray was a severe case of stone chips. I have had no other paintwork issues in all that time.

The thing is, I am finding it hard to believe that this paint lifting issue is coincidental and not connected to having just had a respray.

I would be extremely grateful if there are any paint experts on here who can give me some advice. I seem to have no choice but to give them the go ahead as they have now removed the paint from the bad area as part of their investigation.

I am keeping an open mind but the cynic in me feels as though I am having smoke blown in my face!

[nawarne]

Sorry to hear of your experience.

Have you any reasonable photos that show a "before" and "after"?

Can you get anyone in the trade to prove or discount the "gel coat lifting" comment? Seems odd to me - paint shouldn't lift gel coat...particularly the water based stuff used by spray shops now. It also beggars the Q, that such a defect would also likely have been visible when the work was done and thus, the issue addressed prior to spraying?

If you're convinced that the runs were their fault, and you can back that up using the suggestions above, then to get any redress you'll need to at least threaten the small claims court procedure.

I'm not in the trade, nor am I a legal expert I hasten to add. There is no excuse for shoddy workmanship.

Nick

[AlexanderV8]

Thank you Nick.
Not very good at this. Hope they come out!
First pic is how I first noticed the issue. Looks like coagulation, but second pic is what they sent me to explain the gel coat lifting.

I believe it probably is the gel coat lifting, but I suppose my question is how could the gel coat survived all those years since build and my first respray at least 7 years ago, and only decide to detach itself after my respray a couple of months ago.
I wondered if machine polishing may have caused heat build up and caused detachment but they responded with 'you obviously know nothing about paint', which is partly true (hence my question!) but it all just seems too convenient.
Thanks for the reply.

[spitfire4v8]

Someone who knows more about this will hopefully reply, but your picture appears to show very thick layers of paint peeling back from another layer of green paint underneath. This isn't the gelcoat .. the gelcoat looks cream in colour because it's just a fine glass weave in resin.. what you appear to have is a painter who hasn't rubbed down properly a lower layer of paint to achieve a good key to the subsequent layers, which look really thick anyway.

I suspect a proper paint shop may well laugh at what they are telling you, but I await a proper painter's reply which hopefully will help you out.

[AlexanderV8]

Thanks Spitfire,
I hadn't considered that. Now you mention it, it does look green(ish!) underneath. What is the cream layer in the photo in your opinion though, because that is between the new coat and the dark area underneath.

I had assumed the dark area at the bottom was the GRP and the whitish layer was the gel coat.

Thanks for the reply.

[spitfire4v8]

Not sure what that is, it's very thick if it's paint, maybe some kind of high build primer or filler of some kind ..

anyway this is what a tvr body looks like under the paint .. so what you have in the bottom layer there is green paint, not gelcoat.

[AlexanderV8]

Thanks for the info Spitfire. So, what appears to have happened, is that possibly my previous respray 7 years ago may have come back to bite me!
If you are right about the layers, then the fresh respray may have bonded to whatever was underneath at the time, but something looks to have caused the previous respray to have become detached from maybe the original paint.
Still doesn't sit right in my head as to the timing though. Surely something has acted as a catalyst to set off the recent detachment, whether chemical or heat related?

[TVR Tommy]

I'm no expert, but that's original paint under filler, so mostly likely the fillers reacted and pealed as it not been properly prepped.

if your rubbed back through the gel coat you'd get down to the fibre glass matting. Not paint.

They should be taking that back to redo it at there cost.

[AlexanderV8]

Thanks Tommy. I have just received an email from them and this is the key line:

'Our lacquer, primer and basecoat has clearly adhered to the paint underneath and it is in fact basecoat lifting from an old repair over the original basecoat. I cannot guarantee against any issues with products we have not used or applied'

This may be right I suppose, but I am supposed to believe that it just happens to have lifted soon after their respray. Something has caused it and it is likely to have been something they have done, or something they haven't done that they should have!

Either way, it seems the only way to do a good sound respray would be to remove all previous paint I suppose. Improve the power to weight ratio a bit too!

[blaze_away]

I would take this too someone independent (Option 1 nr Bromsgrove or the new paintshop in Blackpool owned by Brian Horsfield) get an informal opinion. If that confirms 'st workmanship' then pay them a 'expert consultants fee' and get them to put their report in writing then send that off to them with a fix it demand or proceedings in court to follow.

[AlexanderV8]

Take your point, thank you Blaze_away.

Ordinarily I am not one to let people get away with things like this, but in this case, I have to think of the costs and time involved in any remedials.

It looks like it would be difficult to definitively prove they are at fault, even though logic appears to point that way. Even then, they would have to accept it and make good, and who knows what sort of a job that would entail!

The only course of action realistically open for me I suppose, through gritted teeth admittedly, is to accept their offer of 5 hours labour, reduced from 10, to redo the bonnet.

I had a total front end done and now of course I am paranoid about other areas lifting in the future. Just wish I'd had all the old paint blasted off but that was not mentioned.

[RUSSELLM]

If I had any of the doubts you’re currently expressing on here, I wouldn’t be letting them go any further with it.

Have they got a good reputation on here ?

[PhilF329]

This is paint blistering. There was probably damage in this area and that has allowed moisture or possibly solvent to be absorbed and the hot weather has created the problem. It could also be due to unsuitable materials or application. 2 to 3 months is about right for this to show and if it were me I would have it sanded back and refinished somewhere else.

They should have called you during the prep work and told you it needed more work so I guess paying a bit towards the rectification is fine unless you paid full going rate for a front end respray.

[AlexanderV8]

Thanks for the replies Russel and Phil.
Not seen them on here but I did my homework and they have good reviews across various websites. There were some top end cars in there and the quality of their work seemed very good, which is why I chose them. Having said that, I didn't see any GRP cars when I visited, although they didn't think that would be a problem!

I live in North Herts and don't believe there are many TVR recommended bodyshops locally.

I was pretty happy with the job initially, so can't complain about anything other than this one area of blistering.

What you say does make sense Phil, although no damage has ever been visible there and I've had no previous problems in the 15 or so years of my ownership.

If the previous respray 7 years ago has caused an issue now, as they are suggesting, perhaps any prep work for this one may have disturbed some damage or imperfection I suppose. I would have expected that to have shown up before painting though.

I'm not too happy about it but am stumping up for the 5 hours labour for them to redo the bonnet. If the quality of the finish generally was bad, I would cut my losses and try somewhere else.

If I get any blistering cropping up in other areas in the coming months, I will certainly seek expert analysis as that, at least to me, would then point to a processing error or a chemical incompatibility.

Thanks for your help.

[blaze_away]

I don't think I'd be letting them 'rectify' it.

Painting GRP is very much a specialists job (not just the company but the bloke on the pint gun).

They've already got it wrong, and should of been aware of this as a potential issue with painting on top of old paint on top of gel coat/GRP.

Difficult and time consuming to prove poor workmanship in a case like this but from what you've said it does look like it. They simply don't have enough experience of GRP to do it right.

[AlexanderV8]

Thanks Blaze_away,
I do agree with everything you say but I’m prepared to stump up another £200.00 for the remedial in the hope that they can sort it - especially as they now hopefully realise the cause - and just get my car back, put it behind me and forget about them.

If it goes wrong again though, or other areas lift, that would be a different matter. I hope it doesn’t come to that but I am prepared to take it further if I have to.

Shall not be using them again obviously and if I ever need another respray, I’ll ensure all the old paint layers are stripped right back by whoever does it. Cost more but worth it for peace of mind.

Good lesson for everyone I suppose.

Thanks for your thoughts.

[Zippee]

I had a similar but much bigger issue with a Herts(bishops stortford) based so called tvr specialist, albeit a small part of a much larger company now.
I had paint so thick it could be peeled off in layers and also paint that hadn't cured properly between coats resulting in similar issues to yours, once sanded back it was still tacky underneath.

[AlexanderV8]

Thanks Zippee. I think I know who you mean and I remember your problems a few years ago, which is why I didn't ask them to quote.
Mind you, I haven't had much luck myself elsewhere.
What you are saying is what I read about because of all this, regarding oven baking before and between coats to flash off any moisture and volatiles.
I suppose it is too tempting for them to rush and miss steps, especially if they are busy. When problems happen a few months later, they can then try and blame what went before!
Hope you are sorted now.

[PhilF329]

By damage I meant a stone chip, scratch or crack that has penetrated the paint layers rather than accident damage. Zippee is 100% right that putting on paint too thickly (especially too quickly) can cause some real issues and that probably hasn't helped, so they need to strip back the finish fully to a sound base before refinishing it

I think the preparation of GRP cars needs more care than a steel car, but I wouldn't say that or spraying it was a specialist job with modern paint systems. It is obviously harder to measure paint depth but its not rocket science and you can normally tell pretty easily if a car has been refinished

[AlexanderV8]

Understood Phil - thanks. Yes, Zippee has experienced horrors which make mine seem small fry by comparison (unless it spreads to other areas of course!).

What about blending vs. total rub down prep.?

Prior to the respray we had a discussion about this. His take was that it helps deceive the eye where there may be a very slight difference in the paint colour match due to age/fading of other panels which are not needing a respray. With metallics they get the total lacquer coat anyway, which should hide any slight differences blended within a panel.

He convinced me this was very common practice and having done some homework, it does appear that way. Thinking about it, that would preclude a total rub down/stripping off of old paint, but obviously relies on good original base coat adhesion, which it now appears I don’t have in the bad area!