Will they ever be true classics ?
Discussion
The LS debate got me thinking -
one of the main arguments against LS (and I'm guilty, hence the SC route)is that it destroys the originality of the cars. Some say that it suits them, LS conversions meaning original cars are rarer and by inference more valuable.
Now although it pains me to say it, I wonder if TVR honestly has any potential as a "classic" investment to appreciate in future. No serious racing heritage (Lotus, Porsche, Bentley, Ferrari, Jaguar, Maserati, Ford even) and it was only borderline mainstream popular for about 10 years.
Surely TVR is closer in brand positioning to Marcos and Ginetta, with equivalent investment potential ? ie. not much....
This is devil's advocate to open the debate, but I have to confess my feelings err towards the above
When you look back through the marque then the answer is no.
To date the reality is that there is no middle aged, monied group wanting a piece of 60s, 70s or 80s TVR in their collection. Values have increased in recent years they've been dragged up not driven themselves up. Austin Allegros have increased in value over the same period, as has pretty much everything.
Now, the only argument going forward is that the blip of the 90s was pretty big and for the first time almost everyone in the UK knew that a TVR was. It crossed the spectrum of society and pockets. Even though the company has gone you still see young kids who know what they are.
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
To date the reality is that there is no middle aged, monied group wanting a piece of 60s, 70s or 80s TVR in their collection. Values have increased in recent years they've been dragged up not driven themselves up. Austin Allegros have increased in value over the same period, as has pretty much everything.
Now, the only argument going forward is that the blip of the 90s was pretty big and for the first time almost everyone in the UK knew that a TVR was. It crossed the spectrum of society and pockets. Even though the company has gone you still see young kids who know what they are.
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
DonkeyApple said:
When you look back through the marque then the answer is no.
To date the reality is that there is no middle aged, monied group wanting a piece of 60s, 70s or 80s TVR in their collection. Values have increased in recent years they've been dragged up not driven themselves up. Austin Allegros have increased in value over the same period, as has pretty much everything.
Now, the only argument going forward is that the blip of the 90s was pretty big and for the first time almost everyone in the UK knew that a TVR was. It crossed the spectrum of society and pockets. Even though the company has gone you still see young kids who know what they are.
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
we're agreed then - I guess the price range will bump along the bottom at £4k -£15k for evermore (and that will include the T-Cars in due course)To date the reality is that there is no middle aged, monied group wanting a piece of 60s, 70s or 80s TVR in their collection. Values have increased in recent years they've been dragged up not driven themselves up. Austin Allegros have increased in value over the same period, as has pretty much everything.
Now, the only argument going forward is that the blip of the 90s was pretty big and for the first time almost everyone in the UK knew that a TVR was. It crossed the spectrum of society and pockets. Even though the company has gone you still see young kids who know what they are.
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
DonkeyApple said:
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
Hence why strict originality won't ever be an issue IMHO - unless the specific car has racing pedigree or an interesting (build spec/ownership) history in its own right. Put simply, 999 out of 1,000 TVRs are unlikely to become highly prized investor/musaum fodder; as with TRs, Big Healeys, E-Types et al they will be classics that people want to drive and enjoy, and as with these cars in the very likely instance that components prove to stand in the way of genuine and lasting enjoyment, they will happily change/have them changed for better ones. Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
900T-R said:
DonkeyApple said:
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
Hence why strict originality won't ever be an issue IMHO - unless the specific car has racing pedigree or an interesting (build spec/ownership) history in its own right. Put simply, 999 out of 1,000 TVRs are unlikely to become highly prized investor/musaum fodder; as with TRs, Big Healeys, E-Types et al they will be classics that people want to drive and enjoy, and as with these cars in the very likely instance that components prove to stand in the way of genuine and lasting enjoyment, they will happily change/have them changed for better ones. Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
I dont think TVR as a marque had the same positive opinion from joe bloggs on the street (& even many petrol heads) at its time of manufacture so the desire to have one many years down the line will not be there in my opinion, they were & are cheap straight line performance with good looks, nothing ground breaking & not any great race pedigree.
The other Brit classics mentioned all had some kind of claim to fame when produced which lead to desire in later years I think.
Pvapour said:
as with the eagle e-types i guess (think thats what the re-made ones are called) but more so...
Indeed.Pvapour said:
The other Brit classics mentioned all had some kind of claim to fame when produced which lead to desire in later years I think.
Do you think so? Neither of the above were especially advanced at their time (bar the E-type),none were well built - compared to what was being made on the Continent one could even describe the archetypical British sports car as crude and backward. They were extensively used in motorsport, granted, but then everything on three or four wheels was in those days. People have loved them for what they are - an affordable, long term sustainable (running/repair costs) way into a different world of motoring from the mainstream, one where involvement and fun takes precedence over ultimate capability.
To that, add the glamour and speed of the PW-era models from the Griffith onwards and the fact that unlike the most profilic Brit sports cars of the 1950s and 1960s production numbers were positively tiny compared to contemporary mainstream cars...
I'd say the future standing of TVRs from this particular era will be somewhere between the TR4-6 and Big Healey on one end, and (genuine) Cobras on the other... somewhere at the level of garden variety E-types at a guess.
900T-R said:
Hence why strict originality won't ever be an issue IMHO - unless the specific car has racing pedigree or an interesting (build spec/ownership) history in its own right. Put simply, 999 out of 1,000 TVRs are unlikely to become highly prized investor/musaum fodder; as with TRs, Big Healeys, E-Types et al they will be classics that people want to drive and enjoy, and as with these cars in the very likely instance that components prove to stand in the way of genuine and lasting enjoyment, they will happily change/have them changed for better ones.
I sold a DB4 Aston and the only car that I wanted to replace it was a T350C..and I had plenty of choice at the time..For me there is nothing closer to a racing car for the road than a TVR, especially the T Cars...it is a pure petrolheads car..not a collectors car..but when you look at how popular the MaxPower brigade has become/ Fast and Furious films and Top Gear's popularity..I think there are enough people who have the car bug in there 20's who will be keen to get their hands on a TVR - without all the nanny state gizmo's and extra weight that most of the cars have these days
Pvapour said:
I dont think TVR as a marque had the same positive opinion from joe bloggs on the street (& even many petrol heads) at its time of manufacture...
I'm not so sure. As a teenager I made a monumental effort to go the either the London or Birmingham motorshows each year. The TVR stand was ALWAYS packed, and always had a new model/varient to ogle over. It was at one of these as a 16 year old that I first sat in a Cerbera and claimed "one day, I will have one of these". I think it's attraction was that it was - even for me at that age - a supercar that had the potential to one day be affordable. I'd say that the majority of visitors to the stand were +/- 5 years to me (so mid 20's to late 30's now) which offers plenty of potential now, and besides, every lad in my class at school knew what a TVR was.Now don't get me wrong, I don't think this means the prices will rocket, but will hopefully stabilise and maybe improve a little. The classic/performance car movement seems to be gathering popularity again now, despite the worldwide financial situation. Sooner or later people will realise that if TVR ever does come back it won't be anywhere near the type of cars we have now. A quietened, safer, heavy, complex, expensive, LS car? No thanks!
Classics? No, but maybe we do need to devise a sub catagory!
900T-R said:
Hence why strict originality won't ever be an issue IMHO - unless the specific car has racing pedigree or an interesting (build spec/ownership) history in its own right. Put simply, 999 out of 1,000 TVRs are unlikely to become highly prized investor/musaum fodder; as with TRs, Big Healeys, E-Types et al they will be classics that people want to drive and enjoy, and as with these cars in the very likely instance that components prove to stand in the way of genuine and lasting enjoyment, they will happily change/have them changed for better ones.
I sold a DB4 Aston and the only car that I wanted to replace it was a T350C..and I had plenty of choice at the time..For me there is nothing closer to a racing car for the road than a TVR, especially the T Cars...it is a pure petrolheads car..not a collectors car..but when you look at how popular the MaxPower brigade has become/ Fast and Furious films and Top Gear's popularity..I think there are enough people who have the car bug in there 20's who will be keen to get their hands on a TVR - without all the nanny state gizmo's and extra weight that most of the cars have these days
I think values will increase. Have a squint in here....
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?s=9
Not much below £10k in there. A few years ago they were all less than that. I think as this recession lifts & these things get rarer we'll see a marked increase. The Wedges will be next to increase though, along with the Lotus Elite/Eclat. Good restored examples will be very desirable I think.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/list.asp?s=9
Not much below £10k in there. A few years ago they were all less than that. I think as this recession lifts & these things get rarer we'll see a marked increase. The Wedges will be next to increase though, along with the Lotus Elite/Eclat. Good restored examples will be very desirable I think.
900T-R said:
somewhere at the level of garden variety E-types at a guess.
Strongly disagree with you there EricI'm very happy to own my Chim, but to suggest it will ever stand comparison to an E-Type (let alone 289 cobra)? The E-Type was a global sensation and icon from launch onwards and has never (with the exception of the V-12) fallen foul of fashion to date.
Got to remember also that TVRs never aspired to be anything but a cheap performance solution for the so-called "working class". Jaguar was a luxury brand, Cobras were expensive too and the image (rightly or wrongly) goes some way to supporting the latter two's values.
The shame in this context is that TVR went under when it did - the griff and chim brought the brand to the borders of mainstream, the T-Cars and sag built on this. The Typhon began the climb towards higher brand values and prices. Had TVR edged upmarket for another 10 to 15 years it might have been a different story. Bear in mind its not impossible to rebuild a brand image, however poor it may have been - look at Skoda.
When i had to have an unexpected stay in hospital last week, i said to my OH " i have left the TVR out" (as in not put it in the garage) the Midwife overheard me, "whats a TVR?" she said.
If i had said Ferrari/Porsche/Aston etc she would have known, and i think sadly that says alot...
Its just not a global brand.
But i do love them, and i cant ever see me selling it!
If i had said Ferrari/Porsche/Aston etc she would have known, and i think sadly that says alot...
Its just not a global brand.
But i do love them, and i cant ever see me selling it!
900T-R said:
DonkeyApple said:
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
Hence why strict originality won't ever be an issue IMHO - unless the specific car has racing pedigree or an interesting (build spec/ownership) history in its own right. Put simply, 999 out of 1,000 TVRs are unlikely to become highly prized investor/musaum fodder; as with TRs, Big Healeys, E-Types et al they will be classics that people want to drive and enjoy, and as with these cars in the very likely instance that components prove to stand in the way of genuine and lasting enjoyment, they will happily change/have them changed for better ones. Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
There are a lot of Tivs out there which are, to be honest, absolute abortions of home or shoddy fettling.
Because these are not high pedigree cars then I would agree that logical and well executed changes won't reflect in values to any discernable effect.
Jammy Dodger said:
DonkeyApple said:
When you look back through the marque then the answer is no.
To date the reality is that there is no middle aged, monied group wanting a piece of 60s, 70s or 80s TVR in their collection. Values have increased in recent years they've been dragged up not driven themselves up. Austin Allegros have increased in value over the same period, as has pretty much everything.
Now, the only argument going forward is that the blip of the 90s was pretty big and for the first time almost everyone in the UK knew that a TVR was. It crossed the spectrum of society and pockets. Even though the company has gone you still see young kids who know what they are.
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
we're agreed then - I guess the price range will bump along the bottom at £4k -£15k for evermore (and that will include the T-Cars in due course)To date the reality is that there is no middle aged, monied group wanting a piece of 60s, 70s or 80s TVR in their collection. Values have increased in recent years they've been dragged up not driven themselves up. Austin Allegros have increased in value over the same period, as has pretty much everything.
Now, the only argument going forward is that the blip of the 90s was pretty big and for the first time almost everyone in the UK knew that a TVR was. It crossed the spectrum of society and pockets. Even though the company has gone you still see young kids who know what they are.
It'll be these kids who spike the prices in 20 odd years time when they go looking for their cool classic and I do think that this will happen. It's why I believe that originality is important and that people should keep any of the old parts that try modify or change etc.
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
Certain models and certain conditions will continue to grow in value but others will remain low or lower until enough time has passed for a new generation of owners to arrive and buy them up.
Much like we've seen with things like the Range Rover Classics.
Brummmie said:
When i had to have an unexpected stay in hospital last week, i said to my OH " i have left the TVR out" (as in not put it in the garage) the Midwife overheard me, "whats a TVR?" she said.
If i had said Ferrari/Porsche/Aston etc she would have known, and i think sadly that says alot...
Its just not a global brand.
But i do love them, and i cant ever see me selling it!
I think that says more about the standard of nursing in the NHS to be honest. If i had said Ferrari/Porsche/Aston etc she would have known, and i think sadly that says alot...
Its just not a global brand.
But i do love them, and i cant ever see me selling it!
I think good cars will become sought after ( maybe not classics) driving values up. Certainly the most iconic cars of the 90s such as the Cerb and Griff should do OK in the short term and well in the long term, you only have to look at what nice 500s are going for at present and some of the asking prices. I was comfortbale paying the top end market price for my car as it was box fresh with 20k miles and theres fewer and fewer in this condition about. I know I could sell it tomorrow for what I paid for it as 2 people have already asked me to let them know if I wantt o shift it.
Someone earlier mentioned that they historically havent had a good track record and no racing pedigree. I beg to differ, having just invested into a 1964 Grantura and been to the Spa 6 hours where there was an abundance of period Granturas and Griffiths. The Griffs expecially are now going for big money and that will only drag other period cars with it. Period Granturas are £50k +.
Another example of this, being the recent surge in Vixen and early Tuscan prices. I bought an original Tuscan v6 for 8k in 2005 in really nice ( not mint) original condition. I sold it for 15k in 2008 and now wish I hadn't. ( I bought a Tuscan Challenge car)
Im not sure about T-Cars ( mainly a personal thing ) in terms of where their pricing is going to go, certainly the Sagairs owners feel that 40-50k is were their cars should be.
I think the smart money is in very nice original spec cars from pre 2000 at present ( although I have a 2001 Cerb!)
just my 2 pennethworth
Someone earlier mentioned that they historically havent had a good track record and no racing pedigree. I beg to differ, having just invested into a 1964 Grantura and been to the Spa 6 hours where there was an abundance of period Granturas and Griffiths. The Griffs expecially are now going for big money and that will only drag other period cars with it. Period Granturas are £50k +.
Another example of this, being the recent surge in Vixen and early Tuscan prices. I bought an original Tuscan v6 for 8k in 2005 in really nice ( not mint) original condition. I sold it for 15k in 2008 and now wish I hadn't. ( I bought a Tuscan Challenge car)
Im not sure about T-Cars ( mainly a personal thing ) in terms of where their pricing is going to go, certainly the Sagairs owners feel that 40-50k is were their cars should be.
I think the smart money is in very nice original spec cars from pre 2000 at present ( although I have a 2001 Cerb!)
just my 2 pennethworth
Obiwonkeyblokey said:
I think good cars will become sought after ( maybe not classics) driving values up. Certainly the most iconic cars of the 90s such as the Cerb and Griff should do OK in the short term and well in the long term, you only have to look at what nice 500s are going for at present and some of the asking prices. I was comfortbale paying the top end market price for my car as it was box fresh with 20k miles and theres fewer and fewer in this condition about. I know I could sell it tomorrow for what I paid for it as 2 people have already asked me to let them know if I wantt o shift it.
Someone earlier mentioned that they historically havent had a good track record and no racing pedigree. I beg to differ, having just invested into a 1964 Grantura and been to the Spa 6 hours where there was an abundance of period Granturas and Griffiths. The Griffs expecially are now going for big money and that will only drag other period cars with it. Period Granturas are £50k +.
Another example of this, being the recent surge in Vixen and early Tuscan prices. I bought an original Tuscan v6 for 8k in 2005 in really nice ( not mint) original condition. I sold it for 15k in 2008 and now wish I hadn't. ( I bought a Tuscan Challenge car)
Im not sure about T-Cars ( mainly a personal thing ) in terms of where their pricing is going to go, certainly the Sagairs owners feel that 40-50k is were their cars should be.
I think the smart money is in very nice original spec cars from pre 2000 at present ( although I have a 2001 Cerb!)
just my 2 pennethworth
This pretty much reflects my opinion too Someone earlier mentioned that they historically havent had a good track record and no racing pedigree. I beg to differ, having just invested into a 1964 Grantura and been to the Spa 6 hours where there was an abundance of period Granturas and Griffiths. The Griffs expecially are now going for big money and that will only drag other period cars with it. Period Granturas are £50k +.
Another example of this, being the recent surge in Vixen and early Tuscan prices. I bought an original Tuscan v6 for 8k in 2005 in really nice ( not mint) original condition. I sold it for 15k in 2008 and now wish I hadn't. ( I bought a Tuscan Challenge car)
Im not sure about T-Cars ( mainly a personal thing ) in terms of where their pricing is going to go, certainly the Sagairs owners feel that 40-50k is were their cars should be.
I think the smart money is in very nice original spec cars from pre 2000 at present ( although I have a 2001 Cerb!)
just my 2 pennethworth
Older cars (Vixen, Grantura etc.) in good condition are already attracting serious money. Other models produced in small volumes and in similar condition will also be sound investments. Simple really. The rarer the car and the better condition it is in, the more it will be worth in time, even the not so pretty ones (another debate!).
DonkeyApple said:
Will prices ever go mental? Absolutely not. No racing pedigree and no international jet set appeal.
A certain amount depends on what happens to the marque.In many respects, it being 'dead' is better than it being resurrected by an idiot - of whatever variety, Russian or otherwise - to produce hopeless, tastelss dross.
For my money, I think the numbers of cars produced in the late 90's, combined with waning interest, might be a downside. Early 90's and before stuff is sort of in the classic bracket - certainly the pre 70's stuff - and should hold well.
No idea about the T series really. For now there are enough of them to support a very good (quasi-factory in the case of TVR Power) service industry, but if they become cheaper, less numerous (apparently some people struggle to keep TVRs on the road - who knew?
) and less lucretive to maintain, this could change and they might be very difficult propositions engine-wise.If it helps encourage people that are comparing TVR to Ginetta in terms of prices and classic value. I sold my G33 after 4 years of ownership for 3 times what I paid for it and only £1.5k less than the first owner paid new from the factory. But it was a rare car, less than 100 made and i bought a bargain. If I had paid the price others were fetching I would only have doubled my money 
Interestingly there was virtually no demand from the UK, most of the real enquiries and decent offers were from Germany and the car has now moved to Hamburg.
I am not sure about TVR yet. I think the early cars ie late 60's etc are looking better and better as a classic car proposition and I would include the 90's Griff as well. I think that the few Typhons are obvious future classics, maybe the AJP Cerb and maybe the Tuscan Mk1.
A brand does not need to be well known to create a classic car, Gordon Keeble is one example.
Interestingly there was virtually no demand from the UK, most of the real enquiries and decent offers were from Germany and the car has now moved to Hamburg.
I am not sure about TVR yet. I think the early cars ie late 60's etc are looking better and better as a classic car proposition and I would include the 90's Griff as well. I think that the few Typhons are obvious future classics, maybe the AJP Cerb and maybe the Tuscan Mk1.
A brand does not need to be well known to create a classic car, Gordon Keeble is one example.
Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff