TVR new start.
Discussion
Toxic Ted said:
Hello everybody,can anyone bring me up to speed with smolenskis plans for this all hallowed british/russian marque?
Heard he wants to make a bugatti beater,
Toxic Ted.
i suspect someone misheard, always a possibility with the Borat accent : he was simply referring to his daily car bugattiHeard he wants to make a bugatti beater,
Toxic Ted.
FactoryPilot said:
What would it take to buy the name, IP and rights etc to TVR?
If someone offered him 10mil would he rip their arm off? If so, then I reckon those two fatties that won the Euromillions should buy it. They certainly couldn't do a worse job than Smelly
I genuinely don't think it is worth anything. The cost of building a modern TVR will mean that it is simply out of reach for your core TVR buyer.If someone offered him 10mil would he rip their arm off? If so, then I reckon those two fatties that won the Euromillions should buy it. They certainly couldn't do a worse job than Smelly
People want a car that sells for £40k and therefor can be bought second hand for £20k. This simply isn't possible. A car like a modern version of a Sag or Tuscan is going to be approaching £100k and I just don't see any market for a car carrying the TVR brand much above £50k, if that, not in the numbers required to make it a going concern.
You also have the very serious problem of the brand itself and the fact that whatever product was launched there would be a very serious number of 'officianados' who will slate it on principle for various reasons.
Anyone looking to start up similar car production in the UK would, IMHO, be mad to even contemplate using the TVR brand to do so for a very long time.
As time progressing the crude evidence regarding NS would appear to indicate that he is either bi-polar, has a drug problem or has had his access to meaningful funds cut off. Hence the wierd deals with wierd people and the inability to stick to any kind of plan.
It is very sad but I think it is a brand that is just left now. At least for many years to join the ranks of Heally, Jensen, AC etc.
Even this latest mooted tale of the old molds returning to British shores to be used to re-create old cars, I struggle to see why someone would pay the sums needed for a 'new' Griff when you can buy an original for sub £10k and pay a very knowledgeable garage £20k to refurb it and return it like new.
If someone can genuinely make the sums add up then I would change my mind but to date anyone who has done the most basic of sums has come to this same conclusion and only by ignoring basic factors and being a true romantic can anyone think it is a brand that can return.
Let's just enjoy the cars that were built and cherish them and cherish the days when such cars could not only be built in the UK at reasonable prices but also there were enough Britons with the old school ambitions to own them.
The cost of building a modern TVR will mean that it is simply out of reach for your core TVR buyer.
People want a car that sells for £40k and therefor can be bought second hand for £20k. This simply isn't possible. A car like a modern version of a Sag or Tuscan is going to be approaching £100k and I just don't see any market for a car carrying the TVR brand much above £50k, if that, not in the numbers required to make it a going concern.
I have had a look on Wiesmann companys financial figures.(in germany everybody can look in this figures)
They make a loos of over 4 million Euro in 2009.
This cars are much more expensive, they only built approx 100 cars in 2009.
From building cars and from general design these cars are much same as TVRs, but with BMW engines!
(So no risks and uncalulated costs from engine side)
I see no chance for building a Tvr and to make profit as a manufacturer!
The market is too small for this cars!
Uwe
People want a car that sells for £40k and therefor can be bought second hand for £20k. This simply isn't possible. A car like a modern version of a Sag or Tuscan is going to be approaching £100k and I just don't see any market for a car carrying the TVR brand much above £50k, if that, not in the numbers required to make it a going concern.
I have had a look on Wiesmann companys financial figures.(in germany everybody can look in this figures)
They make a loos of over 4 million Euro in 2009.
This cars are much more expensive, they only built approx 100 cars in 2009.
From building cars and from general design these cars are much same as TVRs, but with BMW engines!
(So no risks and uncalulated costs from engine side)
I see no chance for building a Tvr and to make profit as a manufacturer!
The market is too small for this cars!
Uwe
Dom from Power is looking at building 15 new Race TVR Sagaris's, twist his arm and he might build you a road legal hardcore track version, a 850kg TVR Sagaris with a 450 BHP Supersport TVR 4.5 Speed Six engine, I doubt anything would stay with that.
TVR SAGARIS 4.5 SS Lightweight anyone
I get a stiffy just thinking of it
TVR SAGARIS 4.5 SS Lightweight anyone
I get a stiffy just thinking of it
I could see a strong new management team with the necessary investment and support from the independents putting together a package that would allow you to buy the kit to build your own car. It's what TVR used to do remember. Depending on your capability, you can spec how much you want pre-built or DIY and the price differs accordingly.
I think kits would be a backwards step...
TVR achieved credibility (beyond hardcore enthusiasts, with the general public) in the 90's on the back of the Griff and Chim. Presumably they were profitable during that period which means lowish volumes can turn a profit, especially if the business might be run efficiently. Works for Morgan, Caterham, Noble I guess, Westfield and Atom.
How about a two tier line up ? A £40k model with Boxster S beating handling and performance, undercutting a specced Boxster S by £15k. Above that a 911 beater for £60k (undercutting the 911 by £20k).
Save a bit of weight and complexity by dropping leccy windows, heated seats and mirrors, go back to pure and simple. Comparing with Porsche again, they've found a market for stripped out models with boxster Spyder and GT cars.
As for management, no more the pass the parcel of foreign investors, but a stable group of enthusiast investors committed to a medium long view, a good and consistent product.
Wiesmann has been mentioned in this thread - the problem there IMO is that although they may be great quality, they have no distinct image of their own, recreating a Jag XK clone with BMW engine.
For the "new" TVR, the improved S6 engine variants could be employed as well as any number of V8 variants. So, in house chassis, body & engines would mean a distinct brand and therefore the possibility of filling a niche in the market.
Finally, if consistency & quality were given equal priority to performance for rhe new incarnation, I suspect the market would forgive and forget the reputation of old and jump on the brandwagon wholeheartedly.
ETA
There are PH'ers reading this with manufacturing space and facilities available.
as well as
Welders
Design engineers
Mechanics/powertain experts
Draftsmen
Risk assessors
I bet all the skills and professionas required are represented in the membership
- I would invest 6 figures alongside the right team.
TVR achieved credibility (beyond hardcore enthusiasts, with the general public) in the 90's on the back of the Griff and Chim. Presumably they were profitable during that period which means lowish volumes can turn a profit, especially if the business might be run efficiently. Works for Morgan, Caterham, Noble I guess, Westfield and Atom.
How about a two tier line up ? A £40k model with Boxster S beating handling and performance, undercutting a specced Boxster S by £15k. Above that a 911 beater for £60k (undercutting the 911 by £20k).
Save a bit of weight and complexity by dropping leccy windows, heated seats and mirrors, go back to pure and simple. Comparing with Porsche again, they've found a market for stripped out models with boxster Spyder and GT cars.
As for management, no more the pass the parcel of foreign investors, but a stable group of enthusiast investors committed to a medium long view, a good and consistent product.
Wiesmann has been mentioned in this thread - the problem there IMO is that although they may be great quality, they have no distinct image of their own, recreating a Jag XK clone with BMW engine.
For the "new" TVR, the improved S6 engine variants could be employed as well as any number of V8 variants. So, in house chassis, body & engines would mean a distinct brand and therefore the possibility of filling a niche in the market.
Finally, if consistency & quality were given equal priority to performance for rhe new incarnation, I suspect the market would forgive and forget the reputation of old and jump on the brandwagon wholeheartedly.
ETA
There are PH'ers reading this with manufacturing space and facilities available.
as well as
Welders
Design engineers
Mechanics/powertain experts
Draftsmen
Risk assessors
I bet all the skills and professionas required are represented in the membership
- I would invest 6 figures alongside the right team.
Edited by Jammy Dodger on Monday 18th July 08:59
I am no expert by any stretch of the imagination, but I would think that towards the end when TVR built most things themselves, and did almost everything in house, the costs would be much higher than in the 'S', Griff, Chim, days etc.
Did using Vauxhall rear lights on a Griff or Escort lights on an 'S', or Ford electric window switches throughout really ruin the car, I don't think so.
I think a new TVR should still build the cars itself, but use parts from other cars to try and keep costs down.
If it was possible to build an entry level 2 seater for about £23/25k, with say a Ford 2.5 Turbo engine as in a Focus ST, or some cheap Yank lump, I think they'd be onto a winner. You could even base the shape on that of the old 'S' albeit with modern twists here and there - and this is basically what Peter Wheeler did with the 'S' in the first place. A successful shape based on the old 3000 series.
If I recall correctly, the 'S' provided a massive boost to the finances of TVR at the time
Did using Vauxhall rear lights on a Griff or Escort lights on an 'S', or Ford electric window switches throughout really ruin the car, I don't think so.
I think a new TVR should still build the cars itself, but use parts from other cars to try and keep costs down.
If it was possible to build an entry level 2 seater for about £23/25k, with say a Ford 2.5 Turbo engine as in a Focus ST, or some cheap Yank lump, I think they'd be onto a winner. You could even base the shape on that of the old 'S' albeit with modern twists here and there - and this is basically what Peter Wheeler did with the 'S' in the first place. A successful shape based on the old 3000 series.
If I recall correctly, the 'S' provided a massive boost to the finances of TVR at the time
Alexdaredevilz said:
But with a LS or ford v8 please
If you were at Donnington at the weekend you would have seen the TVR engined AJP6/8 cars batter the GM and Ford engined cars and posting times quicker than the very expensive FIA world touring cars.
Edited by SAGRIFF on Monday 18th July 09:59
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