New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 3)
Discussion
The first link is taken from the Welsh Assembly minutes and is dated 17 Jan 2018. The discussion is about the new investment in TVR by various members and the minister responsible. It confirms what we already know but its interesting how the minister, Ken Skates, has got caught up in the excitement of the new venture.
Start at line 167 if you want to read the whole thing. However, line 184 reveals a bit of a cock up. Apparently we have got the name of the new car wrong, its not Griffith its Chimaera and there have been 2 previous versions of the Chimaera......
The minister ends with - " In addition to the scrutiny of the business plan that KPMG carried out prior to the March 2016 decision, I'm pleased to say that Deloitte have been operating on our behalf more recently and they have given us confidence in the company's ability to take the project forward, to take the car forward and to deliver, not just for the investors, but also for the customers."
https://record.senedd.wales/Plenary/4897#C51401
The cost of refurbishing the factory is not, as reported, £5m, it is expected to be £6.2m and the minister explains why they decided to refurb rather than build new on the 5 Mar 2020.
https://record.senedd.wales/WrittenQuestion/79540
On 16 Sep 2019 the minister was asked when TVR would start production and he said they continued to work with TVR whilst they have discussions to secure private finance and they aimed to start in Q4 2020.
https://record.senedd.wales/WrittenQuestion/78843
On 7 Oct 2020 - can't see any newer? - the minister stated he was in regular calls with TVR and Britishvolt. Of course Britishvolt changed their mind and decided to move to the north east instead....
https://record.senedd.wales/Plenary/6593?lang=en-G...
All the results I found for TVR for the Senedd are here -
https://senedd.wales/search/?PageSize=15&Page=...
Try not to fall asle
Start at line 167 if you want to read the whole thing. However, line 184 reveals a bit of a cock up. Apparently we have got the name of the new car wrong, its not Griffith its Chimaera and there have been 2 previous versions of the Chimaera......
The minister ends with - " In addition to the scrutiny of the business plan that KPMG carried out prior to the March 2016 decision, I'm pleased to say that Deloitte have been operating on our behalf more recently and they have given us confidence in the company's ability to take the project forward, to take the car forward and to deliver, not just for the investors, but also for the customers."
https://record.senedd.wales/Plenary/4897#C51401
The cost of refurbishing the factory is not, as reported, £5m, it is expected to be £6.2m and the minister explains why they decided to refurb rather than build new on the 5 Mar 2020.
https://record.senedd.wales/WrittenQuestion/79540
On 16 Sep 2019 the minister was asked when TVR would start production and he said they continued to work with TVR whilst they have discussions to secure private finance and they aimed to start in Q4 2020.
https://record.senedd.wales/WrittenQuestion/78843
On 7 Oct 2020 - can't see any newer? - the minister stated he was in regular calls with TVR and Britishvolt. Of course Britishvolt changed their mind and decided to move to the north east instead....
https://record.senedd.wales/Plenary/6593?lang=en-G...
All the results I found for TVR for the Senedd are here -
https://senedd.wales/search/?PageSize=15&Page=...
Try not to fall asle
Glad the Welsh government ministers, have corrected their name for the car. -
'Fools and their money are soon parted'!
They could have obtained much more authoritative, free business advice by simply reading this forum.
Delloite probably put their newest junior graduate trainees on the case, before submitting their invoice.
And you thought £120 per hour, at a main car dealer was steep.
It of course is not the ministers money at risk, so they are not bothered.
Why are the Welsh government paying £6.2 million to repair the premises?
There has been earlier comment here, that the premises are owned by a charity (have forgotten the name).
Its not clear who the owner is/was 
Business Live says the government paid £4.75 million for the factory in 2017 (report Jan 2021)
https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/work...
Edited: Found the earlier article - according to the South Wales Argus, (report Jan 2018), the building is being leased to the government by the Dewan Foundation (the owners) who have agreed to finance a £4.5 million refurbishment. It quotes the owner, Ramesh Dewan, as saying it is being leased and also the leasing agent who says it is a long term lease.
https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/business/15...
Anyway is it a Griffith or a Mk 3 Chimaera?
Business Live says the government paid £4.75 million for the factory in 2017 (report Jan 2021)
https://www.business-live.co.uk/manufacturing/work...
Edited: Found the earlier article - according to the South Wales Argus, (report Jan 2018), the building is being leased to the government by the Dewan Foundation (the owners) who have agreed to finance a £4.5 million refurbishment. It quotes the owner, Ramesh Dewan, as saying it is being leased and also the leasing agent who says it is a long term lease.
https://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/business/15...
Anyway is it a Griffith or a Mk 3 Chimaera?
Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 30th October 12:16
Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 30th October 12:17
Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 30th October 12:28
N7GTX said:
Business Live says the government paid £4.75 million for the factory in 2017 (report Jan 2021) which seems to make more sense.
Thank you.
If that is the situation, then purchase £4.75m, plus repairs and improvements £6.2m = £11 million seems a crazy total cost.
Modern design steel framed warehouse type structures, are being built in many places at present.
It is akin to fast kit build construction.
Construction is amazingly rapid and many that we see, are far bigger than the proposed TVR buillding.
It is hard to believe that a new commercial building, assembled in just 2 months, would cost £11 million.
Instead of all the messing about, TVR should have simply rented premises.
They were probably side tracked by the prospect of free Welsh government money and factory, but then became embroiled in costly delays and their plans went down the pan. On that basis, it seems greed was another contributory factor in the failure.
Jon39 said:
N7GTX said:
Business Live says the government paid £4.75 million for the factory in 2017 (report Jan 2021) which seems to make more sense.
Thank you.
If that is the situation, then purchase £4.75m, plus repairs and improvements £6.2m = £11 million seems a crazy total cost.
Modern design steel framed warehouse type structures, are being built in many places at present.
It is akin to fast kit build construction.
Construction is amazingly rapid and many that we see, are far bigger than the proposed TVR buillding.
It is hard to believe that a new commercial building, assembled in just 2 months, would cost £11 million.
Instead of all the messing about, TVR should have simply rented premises.
They were probably side tracked by the prospect of free Welsh government money and factory, but then became embroiled in costly delays and their plans went down the pan. On that basis, it seems greed was another contributory factor in the failure.
I agree about building from new. The whole process is a mystery. I need to go and lie down now.
Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 30th October 12:47
N7GTX said:
I've edited my previous post Jon. The South Wales Argus said it was leased and that appears to be correct. I wonder if they decided to cancel the lease and buy outright as the Business Live entry is 3 years later. If they have bought it then the total public investment in TVR is £10.95m + £2m (loan)+ £500,000 (equity) + £2m (CBILS) = £15.45m.
I agree about building from new. The whole process is a mystery. I need to go and lie down now.
I agree about building from new. The whole process is a mystery. I need to go and lie down now.
Looking into the future, perhaps a formal government review might be required.
Ministers then don't have to answer any awkward questions, hopefully until after the next election. -
...............
Answered by Minister for Economy, Transport and North Wales | Answered on 13/03/2020
"Firstly, the refurbishment and reuse of existing buildings is substantially cheaper than new build alternatives.
Secondly, the works can often be completed in a shorter timescale."
'Finger on the pulse' there then!
Does 'shorter' translate in Welsh, to probably 4 years?
You have to laugh.
Edited by Jon39 on Saturday 30th October 13:46
The building was sold in the first quarter of this year, and TVR was not the buyer, because they do not appear to have the funds to buy and refurbish it, and they would have said so if they were now the building owners.
They were supposed to occupy the building in Q1 of this year according to their last accounts, and it seems likely that the building was sold on by the Welsh Government, because TVR have not signed a lease over the building as they are not in a position to do so, as they have no need for a building without funds to build a car, and don't have the funds from which to pay the rent. Without a guaranteed tenant, the Government have clearly decided to sell the building.
Refurbishment works have commenced, because the new owner will want a return on investment, and the building cannot be let in its present condition. It seems extremely unlikely that TVR will be the tenant.
N7GTX has not found anything from this year, where the Government talks about the building, because it is not theirs anymore.
https://www.wales247.co.uk/108703-2
They were supposed to occupy the building in Q1 of this year according to their last accounts, and it seems likely that the building was sold on by the Welsh Government, because TVR have not signed a lease over the building as they are not in a position to do so, as they have no need for a building without funds to build a car, and don't have the funds from which to pay the rent. Without a guaranteed tenant, the Government have clearly decided to sell the building.
Refurbishment works have commenced, because the new owner will want a return on investment, and the building cannot be let in its present condition. It seems extremely unlikely that TVR will be the tenant.
N7GTX has not found anything from this year, where the Government talks about the building, because it is not theirs anymore.
https://www.wales247.co.uk/108703-2
Monkeylegend said:
Jon39 said:
Ministers then don't have to answer any awkward questions, hopefully until after the next election. -
"Can I thank the Member for his question and suggest that, in order to really show his support for TVR, he puts an order in today for the new Chimaera?"
(Line 189 from the first link above)
" In the meantime, we are pleased that TVR are negotiating to take a short-term lease on a small factory nearby in order to complete the engineering development work, but they've also got an office at the works, which is where a small number of people are currently working on the project. Longer term, by quarter 2 of 2019, we aim to have TVR manufacturing the vehicle for sale next year."
(Line 174)
Strange then that although TVR announced this at the time that no more was heard. The accounts do not show any employees so presumably these people are directors.
N7GTX said:
Jon39 said:
N7GTX said:
Business Live says the government paid £4.75 million for the factory in 2017 (report Jan 2021) which seems to make more sense.
Thank you.
If that is the situation, then purchase £4.75m, plus repairs and improvements £6.2m = £11 million seems a crazy total cost.
Modern design steel framed warehouse type structures, are being built in many places at present.
It is akin to fast kit build construction.
Construction is amazingly rapid and many that we see, are far bigger than the proposed TVR buillding.
It is hard to believe that a new commercial building, assembled in just 2 months, would cost £11 million.
Instead of all the messing about, TVR should have simply rented premises.
They were probably side tracked by the prospect of free Welsh government money and factory, but then became embroiled in costly delays and their plans went down the pan. On that basis, it seems greed was another contributory factor in the failure.
I agree about building from new. The whole process is a mystery. I need to go and lie down now.
Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 30th October 12:47
I have to ask though why is there still so much interest in this factory in Wales? I mean whats it all about? And where's all the money gone?
I enjoy the banter on this thread but sadly I find talk of 'new' TVR somewhat tedious and have done for a good while now. I also wonder what kind of world we're living in when some ads on telly are telling us we should die responsibly. Beastie's tucked up in the garage next to Dave (the MGB) and won't be coming out until next Spring. She's 24 years old next year and still not topped 54k miles, engine has only done 22k.. Really need to get more top down motoring in next year
Anyway, I hope everyone is well, I have man flu at the moment, but i never complain. Obviously. Leave you with this..........
LucyP said:
The building was sold in the first quarter of this year, and TVR was not the buyer, because they do not appear to have the funds to buy and refurbish it, and they would have said so if they were now the building owners.
They were supposed to occupy the building in Q1 of this year according to their last accounts, and it seems likely that the building was sold on by the Welsh Government, because TVR have not signed a lease over the building as they are not in a position to do so, as they have no need for a building without funds to build a car, and don't have the funds from which to pay the rent. Without a guaranteed tenant, the Government have clearly decided to sell the building.
Refurbishment works have commenced, because the new owner will want a return on investment, and the building cannot be let in its present condition. It seems extremely unlikely that TVR will be the tenant.
N7GTX has not found anything from this year, where the Government talks about the building, because it is not theirs anymore.
https://www.wales247.co.uk/108703-2
This gets more complicated than ever. Agree fully that TVR could never afford to buy it so it seemed logical that the government bought it to lease/rent out to TVR in return for 100 jobs. Yes, TVR was supposed to sign the lease in Q1 but we've heard no more about that. Given that TVR was quick to announce the refurbishment with lots of pictures in TVRCC News, we can only surmise this has not been signed. They were supposed to occupy the building in Q1 of this year according to their last accounts, and it seems likely that the building was sold on by the Welsh Government, because TVR have not signed a lease over the building as they are not in a position to do so, as they have no need for a building without funds to build a car, and don't have the funds from which to pay the rent. Without a guaranteed tenant, the Government have clearly decided to sell the building.
Refurbishment works have commenced, because the new owner will want a return on investment, and the building cannot be let in its present condition. It seems extremely unlikely that TVR will be the tenant.
N7GTX has not found anything from this year, where the Government talks about the building, because it is not theirs anymore.
https://www.wales247.co.uk/108703-2
"The largest deal of the quarter was the sale of the 172,000 sq ft former Tech Board facility in Rassau Industrial Estate, Ebbw Vale which will be the home to TVR."
So does that mean the new owner is going to lease it to TVR?
The new owner will lease it to the first tenant who comes along, who pays the rent that the landlord wants, and is good for the rent, and who will sign a lease of the length that the landlord wants. That is unlikely to be TVR, because they are not in a position to do any of that.
The building must be ready soon, and unless there are absolutely no other tenants who are interested, it is not likely that the landlord is going to wait around, and see if TVR one day might need the building, and be able to pay the rent.
The building must be ready soon, and unless there are absolutely no other tenants who are interested, it is not likely that the landlord is going to wait around, and see if TVR one day might need the building, and be able to pay the rent.
popegregory said:
So further to this, not only is there no new money coming in but the money that HAS been paid in deposits and loans is paying wages to the current “staff”?
"Staff". Hmmm, no mention of any "staff" in the accounts under 'average number of employees'. All the loans recorded have paid for the one new car so far. The deposits are kept separate apparently although if TVR went bust they would be taken by one of the lenders. 
As said half a mile back, building a new steel girder building takes very little time.
I live 28 miles from Kings Mill Hospital, south of Mansfield, Notts. I made two visits there recently,12 months apart. First trip there was an abandoned industrial estate on the A617, just the access junction built, but no roads or buildings even started.
12 months later, in February this year, I drove past and there was a vast Amazon distribution centre on the site, about a quarter of a mile long and up and running, car park full of staff cars.
This falls under the definition of “Feather, knock me down with a…..”
I live 28 miles from Kings Mill Hospital, south of Mansfield, Notts. I made two visits there recently,12 months apart. First trip there was an abandoned industrial estate on the A617, just the access junction built, but no roads or buildings even started.
12 months later, in February this year, I drove past and there was a vast Amazon distribution centre on the site, about a quarter of a mile long and up and running, car park full of staff cars.
This falls under the definition of “Feather, knock me down with a…..”
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