Ford Focus ST 300?
Discussion
I remember reading rumors about the new ST having 300bhp which is obviously great news however I am more interested in how this power will be sent to the road.
Someone please tell me that Ford are at least considering using a 4WD system for this new car. If they do it will be one hell of a motor.
Someone please tell me that Ford are at least considering using a 4WD system for this new car. If they do it will be one hell of a motor.
ROB1979 said:
It won't be called the ST!
It is 300bhp.
And i'm afraid it's only 2WD and it copes with this by being boost limited in 1st, 2nd & 3rd.
And remember you didn't hear this from me
It is 300bhp.
And i'm afraid it's only 2WD and it copes with this by being boost limited in 1st, 2nd & 3rd.
And remember you didn't hear this from me
I didn't hear what??
Whats it called Rob????
300bhp through the front wheels is regreatable but I am sure they will work some magic on it to make it work.
But to confirm this vehicle is to be built? Pictures? Release dates? Price?
I am a fan of the current ST. more power will be brilliant, lets just hope its not like an Alfa 147 GTA in its nature and want to pull ou off the road when floored
ROB1979 said:
Currently it will be the RS. I cannot give you dates and prices as its not near enough for release and in the past things have been pulled last minute (fiesta RS for one) so i can't confirm.
The cost for 4WD system for a one off unit is ridiculous so it must be 2WD limited to control the power. Will be a great car with better mid range grunt than the ST but as you know from the VXR, anything over 240bhp FWD is uncontrolable and not enjoyable!
The cost for 4WD system for a one off unit is ridiculous so it must be 2WD limited to control the power. Will be a great car with better mid range grunt than the ST but as you know from the VXR, anything over 240bhp FWD is uncontrolable and not enjoyable!
Edited by ROB1979 on Friday 27th April 13:04
What!
You said:
'as you know from the VXR, anything over 240bhp FWD is uncontrolable and not enjoyable!'
But you also said above that 'It is 300bhp'
How controlable is the vehicle going to be? The only reason I am questioning this is that I am v.interested and would be interested to know how usable this vehicle is going to be if it is, as you say running 300bhp
Rob, when do you believe you can provide details of the details?
ROB1979 said:
riwiho said:
What!
You said:
'as you know from the VXR, anything over 240bhp FWD is uncontrolable and not enjoyable!'
But you also said above that 'It is 300bhp'
That's correct!!! The VXR uses no control over the 240bhp so when you put your foot down from the off that's what you get (all at once). Therefore 240bhp is uncontrolable! You can have 300bhp+ if you don't dump it through the wheels in one giant lump. For example, by limiting turbo boost in 1st and 2nd you can allow the car to pull away quickly but in a controlled fashion, then, when the vehicle is moving realease the rest of the capacity and technically you then have 300bhp at your disposal. It all will work something like that but i'm not directly involved so don't quote me
Hmmmmmm. My interest has been piqued!
I still don't like the idea of a FWD 300bhp motor though, I can understand the cost of the four wheel drive system and the mods needed to be made to the monocoque to fit it.
I take it the new RS will use a sticky diff coupled up to a fancy T/C as well as the limited boost in the lower gears?
ROB1979 said:
riwiho said:
What!
You said:
'as you know from the VXR, anything over 240bhp FWD is uncontrolable and not enjoyable!'
But you also said above that 'It is 300bhp'
That's correct!!! The VXR uses no control over the 240bhp so when you put your foot down from the off that's what you get (all at once). Therefore 240bhp is uncontrolable! You can have 300bhp+ if you don't dump it through the wheels in one giant lump. For example, by limiting turbo boost in 1st and 2nd you can allow the car to pull away quickly but in a controlled fashion, then, when the vehicle is moving realease the rest of the capacity and technically you then have 300bhp at your disposal. It all will work something like that but i'm not directly involved so don't quote me
And please note that:
a) A throttle pedal is an analogue device
b) If you dump the throttle of a lightish 300 bhp RWD car in less than perfect conditions, chances are you'll be seeing the road in front of you through the side window
c) The controllability depends a lot on the engine response and delivery - if you can call on the horses to be released one by one, the fact that you have more power than you can safely or reasonably use under certain conditions is a moot point (after all, there's 190 bhp superbikes out there and you don't automatically die when riding one either
); if it's a question of 'all or nothing' and there's little difference between half and full throttle as soon as the blower's on song, well, let's say you're going to see the traction control warning light a bit more often than you want to. d) A well-developed chassis in a purpose-built machine that needs little or no aid from (front) anti-roll bars to curb body roll will allow for more traction than for instance an MPV or soft roader made into a 'hot' version that needs whopping big ARBs to stay more or less upright in corners
e) Apart from that, all depends on the tyres and dampers - and technology has been moving quite fast recently on either front.
f) Technically, it's not the outright amount of power (or rather; torque at the wheels) that can be transferred which is limited - it's the amount of torque divided by the weight which is resting on the drive wheels. 200 Bhp through the fronts of a 1,500 kg saloon won't be a big problem; 200 bhp in a stripped-out hatch weighing 750 kg will be a challenge.
g) LSDs are a mixed blessing on FWD cars. Personally, I'd sacrifice a little outright traction for steering that stays on the right side of lively (just) when the going gets bumpy and/or slippery...
All in all there's no hard and fast rules about how much power can reasonably be applied in a FWD system. Judging from aftermarket tuning applications, 280-300 bhp can still be harnessed quite successfully (as evidenced by a multitude of mildly tuned STs out there) if the total package is 'right'.
Rob,
Thanks for all the info. I know you can not say alot which is a shame but understandable. I look forward to future releases of info and also putting my deposit down at my local blue oval shop.
can you please ensure that viper stripes are not available. Its looks odd! Strips down the side skirts is fine but over the roof. NO NO NO
Thanks for all the info. I know you can not say alot which is a shame but understandable. I look forward to future releases of info and also putting my deposit down at my local blue oval shop.
can you please ensure that viper stripes are not available. Its looks odd! Strips down the side skirts is fine but over the roof. NO NO NO
msport said:
There will be a RS.
It won't be the 2.5 I5 Turbo engine.
It will be 4wd and won't cost the earth to develop the 4wd will be going in Volvo and lower end Fords.
The 2.5 I5 Turbo engine is now over 10 years old and will be replaced.
The engine was just used as a stop gap to see how the sales would go.
The RS will be built with the new facelift.
It won't be the 2.5 I5 Turbo engine.
It will be 4wd and won't cost the earth to develop the 4wd will be going in Volvo and lower end Fords.
The 2.5 I5 Turbo engine is now over 10 years old and will be replaced.
The engine was just used as a stop gap to see how the sales would go.
The RS will be built with the new facelift.
So you have some inside info? When is the facelift due, and how much might the RS cost?
fwd and 300bhp, or rather 300lbs ish (at a guess) torque through the front wheels will be total shite, period. UNless its dry and the wheels are pointing dead ahead that will be spinning up left right and centre. I dont know what "research" ford have done, but power limiting in the lower gears will make the acceleration dissappointing. would people buy it then? Im not convinced.
lets hope the 4wd rumour is correct.
lets hope the 4wd rumour is correct.
msport said:
There will be a RS.
It won't be the 2.5 I5 Turbo engine.
It will be 4wd and won't cost the earth to develop the 4wd will be going in Volvo and lower end Fords.
The 2.5 I5 Turbo engine is now over 10 years old and will be replaced.
The engine was just used as a stop gap to see how the sales would go.
The RS will be built with the new facelift.
It won't be the 2.5 I5 Turbo engine.
It will be 4wd and won't cost the earth to develop the 4wd will be going in Volvo and lower end Fords.
The 2.5 I5 Turbo engine is now over 10 years old and will be replaced.
The engine was just used as a stop gap to see how the sales would go.
The RS will be built with the new facelift.
You are not correct on the Volvo B5254T3 engine which was all new in '05 and along with others using some similar internals replaced the earlier 5 pot engines that first came to the market in the mid '90's.
This B5254B3 engine first saw the light of day in the then new Volvo S40/V50 T5's about three years ago and is in the ST and the upcoming new Mondeo. This 2.5l engine has a wider bore than the older 2.3l 'T5' and is really not so suitable for high aftermarket improvements in the same way as the just discontinued B5254T4 'R' engine from the S60/V70R's. The weakness of both B5254T3(ST and small Volvo 'T5') and B5254T4 (R) is the wider bore and very small distance between the bores.
It may well be that Ford will consider the new inline 6 from Bridgend for the ST, it is only a few mm longer than the 5 pots, mates to the Volvo/Getrag M66 gearbox and will fit both ST and small Volvos and will be the top of the range Mondeo engine next year. Volvo's V50 T5 AWD has an AWD system that will go straight into the same Focus shell, but will need the different Volvo fuel tank and the AWD version of the M66 gearbox. From memory in think the I6 developes 285 to 320bhp in standard Volvo specs., and is already in the new Discovery and Volvo V70.
Regards, Don.
ROB1979 said:
Might be an idea to remove your posts msport. I have as a precaution to not give away company details publicly which does make sense. Tried to PM you but you won't accept private e-mails. Had helpful e-mail today regarding this topic!
I would listen to the man... not the first time he's posted such details in a public forum.
It's not difficult to trace the source...
Cheers Phil,
Nice friendly mail by the way rather than a stern one (which i prefer, hate being told what i should and shouldn't say). Podie is good as gold anyway, have spoken to him too.
My car is up for sale so i think i'll be coming to this forum on a permanent basis soon, shame it's not as busy as the Lotus forum but still fun to take part in just the same!
Nice friendly mail by the way rather than a stern one (which i prefer, hate being told what i should and shouldn't say). Podie is good as gold anyway, have spoken to him too.
My car is up for sale so i think i'll be coming to this forum on a permanent basis soon, shame it's not as busy as the Lotus forum but still fun to take part in just the same!
Edited by ROB1979 on Tuesday 1st May 14:39
Podie said:
Mannginger said:
Cheers Rob, better safe than sorry.
Don't worry about Podie, he's an IT guy and used to giving people the hump!
Phil
Don't worry about Podie, he's an IT guy and used to giving people the hump!
Phil
Not heard that I've moved then Phil...
Give me a shout sometime, be good to catch up.
Details!
Yeah no worries, I'll try to escape soon and come over.
Cheers
Phil
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