PLEASE HELP ALL PH'ers

[japes]

Really need all PH'ers help here. My brother bought an 03 Focus C-Max 2.0 TDCi in Jan this year. Thought the car was pretty good until he realised he was getting an average of 32 mpg...and he's no hooligan. The dealer says that figure is poor but Ford Customer relations have washed their hands of it and say that the Govt figures are only a guide and shouldn't be taken seriously. Eh...? What's the point of them then !?! Ford are happy to brag on about 50 mpg combined on their website...but seem happy to admit the figures are bullshit in reality...by 50%. Has anyone else found their C-max performing this badly ?

[gopher]

Not a c-max but my 1.8 TDCI will return 38mpg if I'm a hoon - but generally get 45-47 mpg on my daily vicar like run into work.

HTH

Paul

[WingChunDave]

Normally the Urban figures are the most accurate. Still seems a little on the low side.

It's like the insurance ads where you can save £350. In theory it's possible so they can advertise it as such.

[DennisTheMenace]

Go to www.ffoc.co.uk and go to the c-max section , they might be able to help you

[dieseljohn]

Drive cycle fuel economy figures are taken from a robot driver on a rolling road. The acceleration phases of drive cycles tend to be extremely gentle compared to real world driving.

Its the industry standard I'm afraid and you'll be very lucky to get the quoted figure. If you can find fuel economy figures from a magazine road test they will be much better as they are much more realistic.

I have to say 32mpg is very low though, does he spend a lot of time stuck in traffic?

Edited to add:

Its not really false advertising on the part of the manufacturers. The method exmplained above is the only scientific, repeatable way of getting data. Drive cycles have to be soft so that all cars can perform them without having to thrash their nuts off.

>> Edited by dieseljohn on Friday 22 July 15:55

[nighthawk]

Has the dealer done anything?

I would start by having them connect WDS to the car and then carry out an extended road test, with the fuel economy test selected.

The technician can see in real time what the Instant and Avereage figures are.

If they are then found to be below what can be reasonably expected on a similar car (i tend to repeat the same drive route and style with a forecourt car during back to back runs) they should begin to look at the increased fuel consumption in the usual way.

Check filters and replace as necc

Scan for DTC's amd possibly update the PCM's calibration if a later file is available on WDS

Carry out injector leak back tests using the special tools sent out to every ford dealer.

By that time they should have a good indication as to the conditions of the fuel system components.

IF warranty terms still apply to the vehicle, the dealer will also have enoungh information to contact the prior approval line in order to request authority to replace the faulty items.

Dealers do not have the authority to replace injectors and pumps without both a case number and an aces code issued by Ford technical.

[dieseljohn]

Nighthawk, you've lost me with the abreviation here and I work for Ford in a roundabout sort of way.

I don't see how it could be a mechanical failure, anything that would affect fuel economy would raise an OBD flag and hence MIL light wouldn't it? Either that or produce a billow of black smoke out of the back!

Increased pumping work from blocked air filter is possible I suppose.

Injector leak-back returns to tank doesnt it?

You obviously know your stuff so please educate me if I'm wrong.

PS is the Focus TDCi engine the Lynx?




>> Edited by dieseljohn on Friday 22 July 18:47

[nighthawk]

dieseljohn said:

Nighthawk, you've lost me with the abreviation here and I work for Ford in a roundabout sort of way. I don't see how it could be a mechanical failure, anything that would affect fuel economy would raise an OBD flag and hence MIL light wouldn't it? Either that or produce a billow of black smoke out of the back! Increased pumping work from blocked air filter is possible I suppose. Injector leak-back returns to tank doesnt it? You obviously know your stuff so please educate me if I'm wrong. PS is the Focus TDCi engine the Lynx? >> Edited by dieseljohn on Friday 22 July 18:47

Which one lost you m8?

WDS is world diagnostic system (the ford approved diagnostic system)
DTC's is diagnostic trouble code's
PCM is powertrain control module

They are all standard now, European OnBoard Diagnostics (EOBD)has had some uses
Malfunction indicator lights don't always come on for faults like this, the electronics are probably within spec, so unless the fuel pressure in the rail drops below that expected or the PCM thinks the acceleration of the pistons is slower than expected the light wont come on

Sometimes back to basics is the best way.

The leaked off fuel does eventually go back to the tank, via the filter assembly, the amounts and period of the return is controlled by a thermostatic device fitted to either the fuel filter head or return line depending on the engine.
However the test on the leaked off fuel I was reffering to involves removal and blanking of the vehicles leak off pipes between the injectors.

Each injector is connected to measuring bottles and the engine run for a specified time. The amount of fuel in each of the bottles is measured anything over 20% difference between the amounts is deemed excessive and the injector should be replaced as it's worn. Another test involves the same test equipment and looks at the height of the diesel in the clear tubes.

This test is now on WDS as a step by step procedure to help ensure the dealer techs get it right.

High pressure common rail systems throw up a few odd ball problems with this sort of fault, normally you would expect black smoke, but the pulsed injection sequences go along way to burning the excessive fuel completely, in terms of reducing smoke emissions, it's a sucsess.....reliablity of the bosch and delphi systems fitted to TDCi engines is another matter though

The C-MAx uses the DW range of engines, these are a Peugeot/citroen design. The lynx was a redesign of the old kent diesel with a chain and belt instead of twin belts amongst other bits and bobs.

[dieseljohn]

Thanks for the info.

I work for Ford in a very roundabout sort of way so I'm miles out of the loop on some things. I honestly thought the Focus TDCi was a Lynx...

Mondeo is still Puma though right?

Most of the ECUs (or PCMs ) we use have prototype strategies so I'm always a bit unsure about what will set off MIL lights and what wont.

[LongQ]

FWIW Auto Express have a long term 1.6 TDCi C-Max on their fleet which seems to do a mix of London commuting and long country/motorway trips and is averaging 40.2mpg, but improving as the engine loosens up.

Last week's progress report can be found at the link below. I especially liked the bit about the starting problem.

32 does sound a bit low. Handbrake sticking? Fuel Leaking? Filler cap not fitting very well? Where is the figure coming from?


www.autoexpress.co.uk/long_term_test/58485/ford_focus_16_tdci_zetec.html

[nighthawk]

I'd be interested to here what part of the loop is yours John

The Duratorq in Mondeo and Transit is the Puma engine.

Since there has been no other further information on this, are we to assume there has been no development with it?

One other thought to.....

Is the heater set on the windscreen demist position?

That will run the A/C compressor even with the fan set to off and the normal A/C button off.

[dieseljohn]

Few glad I got one right at least.

I'm an R&D engineer at nottingham university engines research group, we are 100% Ford/PAG funded (well almost). We tend to get given a development engine by Ford and asked to research a specific thing using it. I'm a diesel combustion/control bod myself but we do everything from VVT to oil additives and lots of computer simulation.

We're quite blue skies, the particular project I'm working on may get implemented on north american lion upgrade-upgrade (keeps getting pushed back, oil will run out first at this rate ) so can be quite out of the loop on current production technology.

[nighthawk]

Sounds interesting John.

I'd have liked to go into something like that instead of being at the broken end.

Some of the current failures on the Ford range could quite easily be stopped with a little less cost cutting and more things being engineered by people who see the whole picture instead of one component.

anyhow........back to the topic

[japes]

Just to say thanks for all your thoughts...it's very much appreciated and will help to make a case for a replacement. The dealer seems to be coming round to swapping it for a C-Max that works...It looks to be a common problem with the C-Max. Various forums suggest that some of them do 40 plus and some are disapointing the owners with low mpg. It's been by far the least economical diesel we've ever owned...but we've always bought VW/Skoda up til now...hmmm.