RE: craigalsop's Ford Sierra Sapphire Cosworth 4x4
Discussion
Hi there is no doubt at all from my observation that the Sapphire (and in fact all Ford Cosworths are the same ilk) is a car of bad design on Ford's side..insofar as its suspenson and drive train is concerned and because they choked the engine down. Ford has been one of the worst design company structures of all time,lives on its undeserved reputation as a "top car". Every model has been a pain in the neck for several reasons ever since Henry Ford got the usual USA nonsense reputation of boy wonder appropos of nothing. Reo for example and Olds were far better cars right at the outset . . Nevertheless the Cosworth has a great deal of potential limited only by Ford Motor's mean-ness and incompetence, or rather their miserably minded and confused design teams. That Ford couldn't fix some problem or another is because Ford is an incompetent engineering company which sits on its diminishing reputation and refuses to budge but pretends it does. Holden..and I dislike both firms..eats Ford at Bathurst. Why you would go to Suburu after 50000 miles of problems makes no sense at all, frankly you shouldn't buy cars you cannot comprehend but if you do then go to true experts and not the local Ford dealer and require performance before you start, say "I am not interetsed in paying you to learn about this model and its problems but to fix them rapidly and competently. I will pay for actual work done, any learning curve is for you to pay" and take the car to the Society of Auto Engineers for review afterwards.. Suburu is a very good car as are ALL horizontally opposed marques, however in 50 years the Cosworth will still be a legend whilst Suburu is already off the boil..who cares about an Imprezza today?? Better or worse the Imprezza is old hat, sad but true.So keep your Cosworths, sort out the problems, keep them standard as possible and work on the suspension and brakes rather than racking up torque and horsepower figures with bolt-on chip and chattle expenditure..make the engine work efficiently but don't go this cretinous path of spending thousands of pounds which is dead money..never recoverable . BMW is a far better car in most areas and even better as M series but Ford wouldn't have a clue why.Ford motor company is simply a dead end mob and most of their cars over the years prove it with horrors like Mustangs and GTO's as their flagships. No road car should run without complete wishbones to locate its geometry and BMW knows it. Ford stuffs around with too many models instead of finding the ace solution and applying it to all models. Having said all that in brief you simply didn't try hard enough to repair the car but that's your choice. You also did not specify the problems of which you complain. In finality, driving a sports saloon which is a third part or less "racing car" invariably gives heat problems. Electronics are very vulnerable to heat and corrosion. Try improving cooling, braking and suspension and drive the car like Moffatt drove (and I disliked him very much as a person) ..with respect and smoothness ...and your Cosworth will serve you well.Whenever I see "large number of receipts" in a Cossie advert I know the car has been abused, the owner ripped off for owning a cossie (or the car is a dog)and stay clear. Unfortunately the abuse of the car in 'hotting up' coupled with poor drivers who bolt on this power without thought about the far more important areas of suspension and reliability reinforces the the inherently poor Ford component in the Cosworth. Recently a BMW with Cossie motor received a poor bidding on eBay yet the concept simply eats Ford. The difference of course is that a Cosworth BMW is, whatever way you look at it an orphan and not a Ford Cosworth...So, learn about what makes a car a good car and apply it to the Cosworth and what makes a good driver ( a critical component) instead of running off to something else after 50K.As I said or implied the suburu is already passé...it will never be legend like the Cosworth Sierra and Sapphire.
Cheers
Tony
Cheers
Tony
How polite you are! MY Gazboy didn't speak like that....
Notwithstanding that, is all you managed to extract from my letter "slating someone for changing cars" ?...your proposition being of itself an over-simplification.
Following your line of thought an equally considered response would be "why are you taking umbridge and so crudely, for my writing a letter"?
The only part of the reply worth comment directly is that little was directed at the chap "Alsop" a statement was made about Ford service causing someone to change their car. I addressed issues there including Ford's seemingly unstoppable ability to produce cars with problems. I related my comments to how that relates to a change to a Suburu.
The comments were thoroughly appropriate to expanding on the Ford problem and no effort was made to "slate" this person only to address factors in their brief statement leading to a decision.
Perhaps the person concerned owned a Ford, perhaps not. Perhaps it was an attempt to introduce the infantile car and speed comparisons which abound in forums and which relate cars to ability at the traffic lights and the amount of horror sound procuded by stereos as powerful as the car engine. Suburu Vs Cosworth has been a dominant force in that kindergarten along with the odd other example like Nissan. I simply am not interested in entering into that style of discussion.
The fact remains that the worst thing about Ford Cosworth is the Ford component. Poorly designed,it sees people attempting to fix the unfixable with aftermarket gear costing considerably more than it would have cost Ford to place a decent suspension there in the first place.
It is described by one kindly commentator on the web as "adequate"...well I say 'barely' and certainly unsuited to the finances of those who bought the cars because one would expect anything with "Cosworth" driving it would be a market-superior machine and fulfilling also their need for reliability.
Was Ford saving weight by such design? Did they think "it's poor design but let's drop the problem onto the purchaser to flog off these motors riding on the name "Cosworth" they'll probably see out the warranty period or did Ford think that the tractor gearbox, the poor suspension, just adequate brakes barely suitable bushes and things needing an after market industry to dream up solutions along with Recaro seats and a Cosworth motor was a wonder of suitably homologated chassis and engine design?
Ford has been a pain with electrical systems throughout but especially since the 80's ..so with their top of the line car what do we see as a predominent fault?...the electrical system. They took a Cosworth motor which had been the subject of ingenuity and put it into a vehicle lacking it. he best thing to do with any unraced sapphire cosworth is to leave it alone in my view, the rest of the car isn't up to the motor.
Nevertheless the overall Cosworth set is a classic car.One could argue that Bugatti's integral head was a pain but the car became a classic. Perhaps sadly I don't think Suburu will, I think its star has set. The rather brutally pretty RX8 with a rotary...Mazda's day is over, the Mazda's called 'classics' or the Datsuns called 'classics' are dated. I doubt this will happen to Cosworth engined cars but it will not be through the quality of Ford mechanicals but through the motor and the phenotype of the prettier Escort; though the RS homologation limitation has seen a less attractive cult car emerge as well.
I reiterate, the technology abounded to make a truly superior car, BMW is a fine example and a cosworth BMW would have been a far superior car all things considered, perhaps in a lightweight 635 it would have been a motoring legend. In the 3 series body with BMW suspension and drivetrain, a remarkable vehicle. Sadly Ford used Duckworth and he needed them so things went direction Ford.
At the end of it all we have a classic car, irrespective of its chassis design, but one which people invest unrecoverable thousands. Examples abound even on eBay. Restoration of Escorts, yes fine, group A etc ok but I suspect the best thing to do with any Road going RS sapphire is to leave it standard and do what one can within say a thousand/twelve hundred quid to enjoy the suspension and braking improvements from time to time and use the other 5000 spent by many it seems to buy a good road going car of better chassis design for most of the miles.
This has nothing at all to do with my comment that changing a car marque over poor service centre response seems debatable and I did debate it a little.On my understanding of the word "slating" I slated no one but did point the finger at Ford.
When you see the money people spend on the Ford component after buying a Cosworth, simply to get it back to a reasonable standard, forgetting about Chassis and Cosworth modifications the conclusions are not comforting. For all those reasons I'd sell it and buy another car too but probably not...unless I loathed the car..simply because the local Ford garage or the next one wasn't up to it. I'd go elsewhere but keep the car. Still if one wants to sell his car for any reson and ride a tricycle, ultimately I have no argument and frankly couldn't be less interested . This decision was however put, in very brief form, to institute response in a forum, it got none and now it has mine and yours and mine again..so that's something. Perhaps someone else will join in to keep alive the technical/experience discussion, further abuse would add little.
Cheers
Notwithstanding that, is all you managed to extract from my letter "slating someone for changing cars" ?...your proposition being of itself an over-simplification.
Following your line of thought an equally considered response would be "why are you taking umbridge and so crudely, for my writing a letter"?
The only part of the reply worth comment directly is that little was directed at the chap "Alsop" a statement was made about Ford service causing someone to change their car. I addressed issues there including Ford's seemingly unstoppable ability to produce cars with problems. I related my comments to how that relates to a change to a Suburu.
The comments were thoroughly appropriate to expanding on the Ford problem and no effort was made to "slate" this person only to address factors in their brief statement leading to a decision.
Perhaps the person concerned owned a Ford, perhaps not. Perhaps it was an attempt to introduce the infantile car and speed comparisons which abound in forums and which relate cars to ability at the traffic lights and the amount of horror sound procuded by stereos as powerful as the car engine. Suburu Vs Cosworth has been a dominant force in that kindergarten along with the odd other example like Nissan. I simply am not interested in entering into that style of discussion.
The fact remains that the worst thing about Ford Cosworth is the Ford component. Poorly designed,it sees people attempting to fix the unfixable with aftermarket gear costing considerably more than it would have cost Ford to place a decent suspension there in the first place.
It is described by one kindly commentator on the web as "adequate"...well I say 'barely' and certainly unsuited to the finances of those who bought the cars because one would expect anything with "Cosworth" driving it would be a market-superior machine and fulfilling also their need for reliability.
Was Ford saving weight by such design? Did they think "it's poor design but let's drop the problem onto the purchaser to flog off these motors riding on the name "Cosworth" they'll probably see out the warranty period or did Ford think that the tractor gearbox, the poor suspension, just adequate brakes barely suitable bushes and things needing an after market industry to dream up solutions along with Recaro seats and a Cosworth motor was a wonder of suitably homologated chassis and engine design?
Ford has been a pain with electrical systems throughout but especially since the 80's ..so with their top of the line car what do we see as a predominent fault?...the electrical system. They took a Cosworth motor which had been the subject of ingenuity and put it into a vehicle lacking it. he best thing to do with any unraced sapphire cosworth is to leave it alone in my view, the rest of the car isn't up to the motor.
Nevertheless the overall Cosworth set is a classic car.One could argue that Bugatti's integral head was a pain but the car became a classic. Perhaps sadly I don't think Suburu will, I think its star has set. The rather brutally pretty RX8 with a rotary...Mazda's day is over, the Mazda's called 'classics' or the Datsuns called 'classics' are dated. I doubt this will happen to Cosworth engined cars but it will not be through the quality of Ford mechanicals but through the motor and the phenotype of the prettier Escort; though the RS homologation limitation has seen a less attractive cult car emerge as well.
I reiterate, the technology abounded to make a truly superior car, BMW is a fine example and a cosworth BMW would have been a far superior car all things considered, perhaps in a lightweight 635 it would have been a motoring legend. In the 3 series body with BMW suspension and drivetrain, a remarkable vehicle. Sadly Ford used Duckworth and he needed them so things went direction Ford.
At the end of it all we have a classic car, irrespective of its chassis design, but one which people invest unrecoverable thousands. Examples abound even on eBay. Restoration of Escorts, yes fine, group A etc ok but I suspect the best thing to do with any Road going RS sapphire is to leave it standard and do what one can within say a thousand/twelve hundred quid to enjoy the suspension and braking improvements from time to time and use the other 5000 spent by many it seems to buy a good road going car of better chassis design for most of the miles.
This has nothing at all to do with my comment that changing a car marque over poor service centre response seems debatable and I did debate it a little.On my understanding of the word "slating" I slated no one but did point the finger at Ford.
When you see the money people spend on the Ford component after buying a Cosworth, simply to get it back to a reasonable standard, forgetting about Chassis and Cosworth modifications the conclusions are not comforting. For all those reasons I'd sell it and buy another car too but probably not...unless I loathed the car..simply because the local Ford garage or the next one wasn't up to it. I'd go elsewhere but keep the car. Still if one wants to sell his car for any reson and ride a tricycle, ultimately I have no argument and frankly couldn't be less interested . This decision was however put, in very brief form, to institute response in a forum, it got none and now it has mine and yours and mine again..so that's something. Perhaps someone else will join in to keep alive the technical/experience discussion, further abuse would add little.
Cheers
Hello again
I am contributing, alone it seems, and have laid the basis for a discussion.I have no interest in pursuing the style of language nor of "my car your car chiacking".I do not feel any personal need to engage in tiresome disussions on your average Ford with the one-eyed. I addressed this current issue solely because of the Cosworth element which popped up as I sought something on the web. I sought to contribute comment which might find technical response.
You can write what you like of course but I just wonder whether you are going to contribute to what I have said or the initiating comments by alsop. Do you have a printable opinion on my Ford comments, relying on some historical or technical knowledge/belief. Is your Cosworth experience different? do you have some other knowledge of Ford design which would refute my assetions and particularly I refer to the cosworth Fords. I enjoy learning from new and serious ideas and experiences others have. Others probably do too.
Cheers
Tony
I am contributing, alone it seems, and have laid the basis for a discussion.I have no interest in pursuing the style of language nor of "my car your car chiacking".I do not feel any personal need to engage in tiresome disussions on your average Ford with the one-eyed. I addressed this current issue solely because of the Cosworth element which popped up as I sought something on the web. I sought to contribute comment which might find technical response.
You can write what you like of course but I just wonder whether you are going to contribute to what I have said or the initiating comments by alsop. Do you have a printable opinion on my Ford comments, relying on some historical or technical knowledge/belief. Is your Cosworth experience different? do you have some other knowledge of Ford design which would refute my assetions and particularly I refer to the cosworth Fords. I enjoy learning from new and serious ideas and experiences others have. Others probably do too.
Cheers
Tony
Hello..Slinky, the thread was initiated by a matter of Cosworth and Suburu. I appreciate your singling out some items but do you have anything to contribute or is this merely an observation post with me running around inside it.
I lost the entire letter in reply. Possibly it will end up there through some mischance and I can't rewrite it all. I happened on the page and took up the comment of allsop, rightly or wrongly. I saw nor sought any othe rpage. I presumed it to be an unanswered thread. Finished.
Do you and Gazboy have anything pertinent to the technical side to contribute other than psychoalalysis ..the whole point of what I tried to encourage was technical and philosophical on the Suburu/Cosworth question.
To give the answer without entering into further correspondence on it.I am an engineer but in another life owned an auto electrical workshop. The greatest problem cars were Fords..in my experience and it was poor design every time, avoidable and carelerss design.
Fords..my first was a Mercury, I have had 1939 also, single and twin spinners, anniversary, 1954/5/6/7/8 70's 80's. I currently own a Sapphire Cosworth and you know my opinions. mine is original and good but the inherent design, the Ford component is their usual slovenly effort. A good example of Fords penny pinching on customers (not Henry's lifestyle, that's in fine shape) was the phase 2HO and no doubt the 3, real performance tanky thing which I have sat in as a rear seat passenger (this one was a Shelby Cobra-ised waste of money in my view the Fiat 1500 MK3 was a better car) also at over 145 mph through mountain roads but seat belts in the rear..not likely.That might have cost Ford Hmm another 10 dollars all up.
I know that people would die for them but they are not a patch as a car on a common old BMW or Mercedes taxi.
Now...all of you..anything to contribute other than personalising? Wipe the soapbox..I have finsihed early;
Cheers all
I lost the entire letter in reply. Possibly it will end up there through some mischance and I can't rewrite it all. I happened on the page and took up the comment of allsop, rightly or wrongly. I saw nor sought any othe rpage. I presumed it to be an unanswered thread. Finished.
Do you and Gazboy have anything pertinent to the technical side to contribute other than psychoalalysis ..the whole point of what I tried to encourage was technical and philosophical on the Suburu/Cosworth question.
To give the answer without entering into further correspondence on it.I am an engineer but in another life owned an auto electrical workshop. The greatest problem cars were Fords..in my experience and it was poor design every time, avoidable and carelerss design.
Fords..my first was a Mercury, I have had 1939 also, single and twin spinners, anniversary, 1954/5/6/7/8 70's 80's. I currently own a Sapphire Cosworth and you know my opinions. mine is original and good but the inherent design, the Ford component is their usual slovenly effort. A good example of Fords penny pinching on customers (not Henry's lifestyle, that's in fine shape) was the phase 2HO and no doubt the 3, real performance tanky thing which I have sat in as a rear seat passenger (this one was a Shelby Cobra-ised waste of money in my view the Fiat 1500 MK3 was a better car) also at over 145 mph through mountain roads but seat belts in the rear..not likely.That might have cost Ford Hmm another 10 dollars all up.
I know that people would die for them but they are not a patch as a car on a common old BMW or Mercedes taxi.
Now...all of you..anything to contribute other than personalising? Wipe the soapbox..I have finsihed early;
Cheers all
No..I had been goosed twice on eBay 635 BMW's and the latter one lost me over 2000quid in travel, buying the trailer to tke it back and a car to tow the trailer. As things happened I bought a 3 door XR4. It has some injection fault but pulled the heavy trailer from up North UK to Hereford then down to Portsmouth on that appallingly blocked freeway and then down to South France; I was impressed with the car in general ...other than the motor fault which disguised some other faults ..and its a very nice looking red 3 door. I knew a little about Sierras from Australia but they were uncommon there.
I was so angry about the lost cash I went off the 635 but suddenly saw a Cosworth for sale and bought it. Interesting car but I have stated my case. I bought grooved discs, pads and new TCA's. I have also loaded up some essential spares for the eventual (presently unecessary) head repair, valves, thermostat, cam belt, and other bits and some switches. Bought specific history/technical books to understand more fully the car and design.
I had no real problems with the overall theory before I bought the car but did see the weaknesses once the dust had settled. I have kept the red car so far as I just like its style...the trouble with cossie as opposed to the XR4 is that you can drive the Cossie so much harder if you want and really get into some strife.
These cars did not require a racing licence to buy as some cars have and I see them often being bid on by "O" ebayers who for all I know, might be young new drivers. Bidding for 350 hp cars, if so, does give me some anxieties in passing. If the car was better in the areas I mentioned it would be brilliant. My beef with Ford (and Holden also only improved its tragic, foul cars because of mounting European opposition in Australia)
Why would you ever buy a 1967 Holden once you had sat in say a Fiat 1500 or a 2300. Holden and Ford were simply mean and miserable right up to the 90's but in this case I am discussing Ford a la Cosworth in particular where in my view it was irresponsible and mean of Ford to build such a car around the Cosworth design, a violently fast car which experience showed would immediately be opened up by tuners should have come with state of the art suspension and chassis tuning...they were going on the road and the responsibility is to the owner/driver and other owner drivers that the car is in advance of its engine.
Does that clarify the position..to the degree you sought?
Tony
I was so angry about the lost cash I went off the 635 but suddenly saw a Cosworth for sale and bought it. Interesting car but I have stated my case. I bought grooved discs, pads and new TCA's. I have also loaded up some essential spares for the eventual (presently unecessary) head repair, valves, thermostat, cam belt, and other bits and some switches. Bought specific history/technical books to understand more fully the car and design.
I had no real problems with the overall theory before I bought the car but did see the weaknesses once the dust had settled. I have kept the red car so far as I just like its style...the trouble with cossie as opposed to the XR4 is that you can drive the Cossie so much harder if you want and really get into some strife.
These cars did not require a racing licence to buy as some cars have and I see them often being bid on by "O" ebayers who for all I know, might be young new drivers. Bidding for 350 hp cars, if so, does give me some anxieties in passing. If the car was better in the areas I mentioned it would be brilliant. My beef with Ford (and Holden also only improved its tragic, foul cars because of mounting European opposition in Australia)
Why would you ever buy a 1967 Holden once you had sat in say a Fiat 1500 or a 2300. Holden and Ford were simply mean and miserable right up to the 90's but in this case I am discussing Ford a la Cosworth in particular where in my view it was irresponsible and mean of Ford to build such a car around the Cosworth design, a violently fast car which experience showed would immediately be opened up by tuners should have come with state of the art suspension and chassis tuning...they were going on the road and the responsibility is to the owner/driver and other owner drivers that the car is in advance of its engine.
Does that clarify the position..to the degree you sought?
Tony
yeah right said:
Recently a BMW with Cossie motor received a poor bidding on eBay yet the concept simply eats Ford.
Tony, have you got any more details on the BMW/Cossie hybrid? A friend of mine once made an M3 replica with 400bhp Cosworth engine and 4x4 drivetrain. It was very yellow, with quite a lairy bodykit. Same one perhaps? If it is, what did it go for etc.?
ATB
Domster
Hi
No ths one went on eBay ..or didn't!!...just last week. I mayhave kept a copy in my files..nice idea, forgotten how god or bad the car is..I"ll go look..
Here it is..and guess what colour?
Fire it up through ebay, it was unsold by the way and with the prices Cosworth motors bring the car was a bargain. No 2485806541
Bidding has ended for this item
Go to larger picture Starting bid: GBP 3,500.00
Approximately US $6,389.08
Ended: Aug-04-04 14:25:04 PDT
Start time: Jul-28-04 14:25:04 PDT
History: 0 bids
Item location: essex
United Kingdom /London
Ships to: Local pickup only (no shipping)
Description (revised)
Item Specifics - Cars & Other Vehicles
Manufacturer: Ford Mileage: 43
Model: Escort Year of Registration: 1986
Type: Saloon MOT Certificate: 10 Months Remaining
YOU ARE BIDDING ON A BMW 325I WITH M3 BODY KITT RHD. FULL MOTORSPORTS. BLACK LEATHER SNITZEN PARTS EG= DASH BOARD FRONT GRILL. 200 BLOCK CONSWORTH ENGINE. AND RUNNING GEAR.GREY INJECTERS. T4 TURBO.ALLOY RS 500 INTENCOOLER.ENGINE RUNS QUIETLEY BUT IT NEEDS CLUTCH TO DRIVE. NEEDS MINOR JOBS TO FINISH. PRIVATE NUMBER PLATE ODZ 76O. ABOUT THE PRICE I WILL TAKE ANYTHING FROM £3.500 UP SO PLEASE BID.
cheers
No ths one went on eBay ..or didn't!!...just last week. I mayhave kept a copy in my files..nice idea, forgotten how god or bad the car is..I"ll go look..
Here it is..and guess what colour?
Fire it up through ebay, it was unsold by the way and with the prices Cosworth motors bring the car was a bargain. No 2485806541
Bidding has ended for this item
Go to larger picture Starting bid: GBP 3,500.00
Approximately US $6,389.08
Ended: Aug-04-04 14:25:04 PDT
Start time: Jul-28-04 14:25:04 PDT
History: 0 bids
Item location: essex
United Kingdom /London
Ships to: Local pickup only (no shipping)
Description (revised)
Item Specifics - Cars & Other Vehicles
Manufacturer: Ford Mileage: 43
Model: Escort Year of Registration: 1986
Type: Saloon MOT Certificate: 10 Months Remaining
YOU ARE BIDDING ON A BMW 325I WITH M3 BODY KITT RHD. FULL MOTORSPORTS. BLACK LEATHER SNITZEN PARTS EG= DASH BOARD FRONT GRILL. 200 BLOCK CONSWORTH ENGINE. AND RUNNING GEAR.GREY INJECTERS. T4 TURBO.ALLOY RS 500 INTENCOOLER.ENGINE RUNS QUIETLEY BUT IT NEEDS CLUTCH TO DRIVE. NEEDS MINOR JOBS TO FINISH. PRIVATE NUMBER PLATE ODZ 76O. ABOUT THE PRICE I WILL TAKE ANYTHING FROM £3.500 UP SO PLEASE BID.
cheers
Hi Trouble is DOm that thy have such limited resale value/market and need to be engineered before assurance etc. In my experience welding and misalignents of the running gear are most significant structural faults on re-egineering as is a wet-finger -in-the-air approach to suspension. BMW is an outstanding car but had long term sag on front crossmembers particularly 528I. They could be reinforced and I always had mine done expertly and I always have bilstein sports fitted immediately unless there already None other!. BMW has the advantage of a lot of Bilstein Eibach experience and some very smart European Engineers. The E21 5 speed boxes were a bit of a dog sometimes into 1st but in general I have found them cheap to run if you don't drive like a looney. I have seen several only a few years old with thousands of dollars of receipts in the glove box, could be dogs or could be rip off service centres..they are everywhere
(and the V6...a problem motor all through the marques pretty well and especially Range Rovers where the service guys smell a quid from not so bright owners are a prime mark for an overcharge when the hoses start to block. Reco'd engines are usually recommended when all needed are new hoses/scoured oil passages in the pollution control valve areas.Most V6 's have the same problems)
BMW has in my mind ideal suspension for the tarmac and a great range of expertise and experience around the car and its tuning. Had I not bought the Cosworth I would have had a serious look at the BMW but after the recent experiences ( namely extensive and unrepairable corrosion being called 'minor' and photos having a bush just hiding the massive rust by coincidence in one case) costing a lot of wasted money...and when you are a tourist you really cannot punch out lying vendors these days as there are too many 'terrorism' controls in place to stop the next trip to Europe.
I reckon the yellow BMW is worth a look, don't know whether 2wd or 4x4 motor which is significant but the idea is good. Though I own 2 Saabs , one a 9000 turbo, the other a GSL manual and a twin spark Alfa T75 and a floor pan welded 405 peugeot with interesting mods..owned by a Peugeot exec originally then another car chap who had access to 'goodies' I still believe that the car to buy is the rear wheel driven type. The Alfa is with the gearbox at the rear axle but the SAAB, though FWD is truly a well tuned design especially the chassis tuning. My 9000's are older '87/88 and the Alfa last of the series (1993) and the 405 is a 1992. I have gone off the bodies since then until the more recent Peugeots..nice cars!!
What's that ?? get off the soap box..!?? ok fine!!
Cheers
(and the V6...a problem motor all through the marques pretty well and especially Range Rovers where the service guys smell a quid from not so bright owners are a prime mark for an overcharge when the hoses start to block. Reco'd engines are usually recommended when all needed are new hoses/scoured oil passages in the pollution control valve areas.Most V6 's have the same problems)
BMW has in my mind ideal suspension for the tarmac and a great range of expertise and experience around the car and its tuning. Had I not bought the Cosworth I would have had a serious look at the BMW but after the recent experiences ( namely extensive and unrepairable corrosion being called 'minor' and photos having a bush just hiding the massive rust by coincidence in one case) costing a lot of wasted money...and when you are a tourist you really cannot punch out lying vendors these days as there are too many 'terrorism' controls in place to stop the next trip to Europe.
I reckon the yellow BMW is worth a look, don't know whether 2wd or 4x4 motor which is significant but the idea is good. Though I own 2 Saabs , one a 9000 turbo, the other a GSL manual and a twin spark Alfa T75 and a floor pan welded 405 peugeot with interesting mods..owned by a Peugeot exec originally then another car chap who had access to 'goodies' I still believe that the car to buy is the rear wheel driven type. The Alfa is with the gearbox at the rear axle but the SAAB, though FWD is truly a well tuned design especially the chassis tuning. My 9000's are older '87/88 and the Alfa last of the series (1993) and the 405 is a 1992. I have gone off the bodies since then until the more recent Peugeots..nice cars!!
What's that ?? get off the soap box..!?? ok fine!!
Cheers
Wow, just seen this - that was a long response to my short ownership summary.
In reply to some of your points:
I didn't have problems for 50,000 miles - the problems started at 50,000 miles (or thereabouts)
I accept your point that the cause of some of the problems (leaky gearbox, leaky engine gaskets, dodgy fuel pump, dodgy ABS sensors, dodgy ECU) may have been down to poor quality parts, but my ongoing problems were due to the appalling quality of service from the (then) RS dealer in Edinburgh. On no occasion did they rectify problems first time - some problems never got rectified.
On one occasion my car driven by a mechanic passed my wife doing well over the ton, yet when I phoned, they initially told me that they were too busy to look at my car - was in for a chronic oil leak which they never resolved.
This was a company car, so I had no choice of dealer, couldn't get modifications done etc.
I eventually got so p*ssed off with it that I drove it 400 miles to my car fleet manager, parked it, her the keys & told her I was never driving it again. After driving it, she didn't need to ask why....
In terms of classic/passe etc ....??eh!!??
Yes the Cosworth was/is a classic icon, but so is the Impreza. The Impreza just happens to be a far better car (oh & have far better service from dealers to boot)
If an Impreza is old hat, surely the Cossie must be really old hat?
Both cars have a very similar popularity curve, which goes like this:
started off underrated, gathered a cult following, became popular, got nicked a lot, got cheap enough to be bought by chavs, chavs crash most, cars left become classics.
The Cosworth is at the end of this curve, the Impreza is at the chac buying stage....
At the end of the day though, I don't really care what image my car gives out, I care about how it drives, and how much time it spends on the road (this is a multiplier of reliability with good service - if either is crap, then the other one better be really good)
When I got my Cosworth, most people I knew said "why get that, it's only a Sierra", as it was at the chav part of the curve.
When I got my first Impreza ('95 IIRC) most people I knew said "What? Subaru, never heard of them"
In both cases I didn't care, as I got the cars to drive them.
The service I have received from Subaru dealers has been excellent - they always remember me, phone me when they say they will (v rare in my experience with other dealers), always phone a few days after service to ask if I am happy before they bill me, invite me to free track days etc.
If that's passe, hey, I've never cared about fashion...
In reply to some of your points:
I didn't have problems for 50,000 miles - the problems started at 50,000 miles (or thereabouts)
I accept your point that the cause of some of the problems (leaky gearbox, leaky engine gaskets, dodgy fuel pump, dodgy ABS sensors, dodgy ECU) may have been down to poor quality parts, but my ongoing problems were due to the appalling quality of service from the (then) RS dealer in Edinburgh. On no occasion did they rectify problems first time - some problems never got rectified.
On one occasion my car driven by a mechanic passed my wife doing well over the ton, yet when I phoned, they initially told me that they were too busy to look at my car - was in for a chronic oil leak which they never resolved.
This was a company car, so I had no choice of dealer, couldn't get modifications done etc.
I eventually got so p*ssed off with it that I drove it 400 miles to my car fleet manager, parked it, her the keys & told her I was never driving it again. After driving it, she didn't need to ask why....
In terms of classic/passe etc ....??eh!!??
Yes the Cosworth was/is a classic icon, but so is the Impreza. The Impreza just happens to be a far better car (oh & have far better service from dealers to boot)
If an Impreza is old hat, surely the Cossie must be really old hat?
Both cars have a very similar popularity curve, which goes like this:
started off underrated, gathered a cult following, became popular, got nicked a lot, got cheap enough to be bought by chavs, chavs crash most, cars left become classics.
The Cosworth is at the end of this curve, the Impreza is at the chac buying stage....
At the end of the day though, I don't really care what image my car gives out, I care about how it drives, and how much time it spends on the road (this is a multiplier of reliability with good service - if either is crap, then the other one better be really good)
When I got my Cosworth, most people I knew said "why get that, it's only a Sierra", as it was at the chav part of the curve.
When I got my first Impreza ('95 IIRC) most people I knew said "What? Subaru, never heard of them"
In both cases I didn't care, as I got the cars to drive them.
The service I have received from Subaru dealers has been excellent - they always remember me, phone me when they say they will (v rare in my experience with other dealers), always phone a few days after service to ask if I am happy before they bill me, invite me to free track days etc.
If that's passe, hey, I've never cared about fashion...
Yes Hi Craig
You have pretty well supported what I have said about Ford and Suburu whilst taking a different tack. I think my point of the Cosworth Motor being the prime cause of the Ford series being classic is significant and you possibly overlooked it in trying to get through a fair bit. The list of "how it happens" made me laugh..you are qite right of course and the Impreza was substantially a better handling car than the Cosworth. All this supports my statements about Ford's slovenliness. On the other hand those things that make a clssic (as opposed to a fine car which the Suburu has been) are sometimes intangible but no Ford is a classic although some claim the Victoria to be one...T's A's and all the rest are legends but not classics. The Suburu motor does not have the mystique and personal touch which Duckworth and Costin and associates each in his way, put into the Cossie engine. That indefinable something has tangible threads which will see Cosworth still a motoring classic in 1000 years. The Suburu had magic when it arrived but today, a fine performer but though a better car than most is just another car I thnk these days;Peugeot for example has stolen the limelight. One could never call any Ford anything like approaching "classic status" whereas one could with Suburu but the Ford is not the classic...the COSWORTH is the classic. Of all the series the Ford Escort Cosworth is THE classic and survives with some Ford identity owing to its brute look but it was the Cosworth Motor that put it on the map. Does this explain my point more precisely?
Nothing personal was said of you..I wouldn't know you from Prince Philip but my general statement was quite fair when you sit and look at it. I have to agree that your experience with Ford was more than enough and reinforces my opinions ..by the way I owned a modifed (I stroked the motor) Lotus Escort and they were beyond Ford's mechanics and leaked oil profusely. If you gave me a Ford today I'd have it in the paper tomorrow. Penultimate.. having given my preference for RWD cars I reitrate that my 4cyl preference is "horizontally opposed" and Suburu is a good example.The jowett javelin was too. Finally I agree that the presentation of these cars to the public, the outrageous costs of spares and labour is a blight on Ford. Nevertheless if one accumulates cheap parts one can survive ..but in reality hiding the real costs that way does not alter the fact that the Ford component is not ahead of the engine as it should be and trying to fix a Ford finds you always at odds with the service advisors.
Cheers
You have pretty well supported what I have said about Ford and Suburu whilst taking a different tack. I think my point of the Cosworth Motor being the prime cause of the Ford series being classic is significant and you possibly overlooked it in trying to get through a fair bit. The list of "how it happens" made me laugh..you are qite right of course and the Impreza was substantially a better handling car than the Cosworth. All this supports my statements about Ford's slovenliness. On the other hand those things that make a clssic (as opposed to a fine car which the Suburu has been) are sometimes intangible but no Ford is a classic although some claim the Victoria to be one...T's A's and all the rest are legends but not classics. The Suburu motor does not have the mystique and personal touch which Duckworth and Costin and associates each in his way, put into the Cossie engine. That indefinable something has tangible threads which will see Cosworth still a motoring classic in 1000 years. The Suburu had magic when it arrived but today, a fine performer but though a better car than most is just another car I thnk these days;Peugeot for example has stolen the limelight. One could never call any Ford anything like approaching "classic status" whereas one could with Suburu but the Ford is not the classic...the COSWORTH is the classic. Of all the series the Ford Escort Cosworth is THE classic and survives with some Ford identity owing to its brute look but it was the Cosworth Motor that put it on the map. Does this explain my point more precisely?
Nothing personal was said of you..I wouldn't know you from Prince Philip but my general statement was quite fair when you sit and look at it. I have to agree that your experience with Ford was more than enough and reinforces my opinions ..by the way I owned a modifed (I stroked the motor) Lotus Escort and they were beyond Ford's mechanics and leaked oil profusely. If you gave me a Ford today I'd have it in the paper tomorrow. Penultimate.. having given my preference for RWD cars I reitrate that my 4cyl preference is "horizontally opposed" and Suburu is a good example.The jowett javelin was too. Finally I agree that the presentation of these cars to the public, the outrageous costs of spares and labour is a blight on Ford. Nevertheless if one accumulates cheap parts one can survive ..but in reality hiding the real costs that way does not alter the fact that the Ford component is not ahead of the engine as it should be and trying to fix a Ford finds you always at odds with the service advisors.
Cheers
yeah right said:
Why you would go to Suburu after 50000 miles of problems makes no sense at all, frankly you shouldn't buy cars you cannot comprehend but if you do then go to true experts and not the local Ford dealer and require performance before you start, say "I am not interetsed in paying you to learn about this model and its problems but to fix them rapidly and competently. I will pay for actual work done, any learning curve is for you to pay"
It makes perfect sense. It was a company car under warranty, hence it needed to go to an RS dealer, and there wasn't a choice. As to cars I cannot comprehend - ouch! I think I can comprehend the cars a bit better than the Ford greasemonkeys I talked to. Despite the fact that I wasn't allowed to touch my car for fear of invalidating warranties, in one instance I got so incensed with a gearbox oil leak that hadn't been fixed despite 3 attempts, I fixed it myself in 10 minutes by tightening up some bolts.
yeah right said:
Suburu is already off the boil..who cares about an Imprezza today??
That'll be me then. Current WRC champion did it in an Impreza - they can't be that off the boil...
yeah right said:
Having said all that in brief you simply didn't try hard enough to repair the car but that's your choice.
I think I might have, actually
After 50,000 miles the car was constantly back at the service centre. Money just wasn't an issue, as it was a leased company car. They could take as much money as necessary, I just wanted it fixed... yeah right said:
You also did not specify the problems of which you complain.
Fair comment. The problems were:
Frequent & various oil leaks (up to a litre/day. Whilst stationary)
Faulty ABS sensor - caused ABS to come on without any braking ability at all
Took garage a week to sort this - should have been a couple of hour job, if that Fuel starvation on left hand corners - faulty fuel pump
Various ECU problems, misfires, incorrect fuel pulses etc.
Head gasket needed replacing
yeah right said:I did. It didn't. I have no regrets - it was fun for a while, but ultimately was let down by the official dealer network, much like the Escort RS Turbo I had previously...
drive the car like Moffatt drove (and I disliked him very much as a person) ..with respect and smoothness ...and your Cosworth will serve you well.
>> Edited by CraigAlsop on Wednesday 11th August 14:32
yeah right said:I see what you are saying, I just disagree with you - to me the off-beat "blarp" of a Subaru flat four just sends shivers up my spine. It brings up memories of standing on rally stages, waiting for the first car to arrive (frequently an Impreza). This arrival would be preceded by about 30 seconds by the noise...Mystique - you betcha!
The Suburu motor does not have the mystique and personal touch which Duckworth and Costin and associates each in his way, put into the Cossie engine. That indefinable something has tangible threads which will see Cosworth still a motoring classic in 1000 years.
The noise of a Cosworth was always agricultural at best (probably the worst part of the car)
My top 4 engine noises go like this:
TVR (rover) V8
Subaru Impreza
Ferrari (most of them)
Audi (Ur)Quattro
yeah right said:Not really, as you can't really buy anything approaching the Peugeot WRC car - this was always the appeal of both the Cosworth & the Impreza - you can buy a car that looks like the WRC car & has similar power (Yes I know that practically everything else is different, but this is where "image" & "mystique" come from.) To me the last classic Peugeot was the 1.9 GTi Mi16. Before that it was a 504, which was the last "solid" Peugeot - i.e. not made with wafer thin sheet metal etc.
The Suburu had magic when it arrived but today, a fine performer but though a better car than most is just another car I thnk these days;Peugeot for example has stolen the limelight.
Thanks Craig;.I had to laugh about the Cosworth Tractor...I drove away from down the road yesterday, on rearrival my (girl) friend said I heard you drive away it sounded like an airplane...I thought about that and said..a airplane ..are you sure?!! and she looked to judge my state of mind and said..well no, actually it sounded like a tractor..oh!! I had a few Leyland P76 V8's and they were a great driving car even though the use of unpainted galvanised iron in some places was a bit eyebrow raising..al gone now and the motors and bits all stolen .
I wasn't thinking of the impressive and still impressive Suburu get up and go but in terms of how it hit the market, like you said...nicked..(great for bank jobs etc) but although still running well and still getting there in rallies the shine, that rave review car has, to me, slipped? The Cosworth would be known by less ordinary people than the Suburu also, I didn't mention that either so there's a flip the coin. The Peugeots 10's and 20's are a fine looking piece of sardine can, sure but they work well all around and haven't gone quite ordinary like most cars. Shared usage has stopped the distinctive car market largely. You heard me on the new RX..nice at the rear horribler than the Megane rear at the front. The Megane though gets top marks in the mechanicals, but I'd feel nicer in a MK&Sprite for looks.
I have had interesting odd cars in one way or another, the R5 Turbo, the BX sport (a bit sportier with twin webers limited prod) but I cn only repeat I am a thorough fan of the horizontally opposed motor. Forget the Kamanghia which I loved the first time I tuned and drove one 40 years ago and still love but I bought a flachbau Porsche the other year...same thing great motor. So, when it gets to the classic conundrum it becomes for some personal. I'd still rather have an M3 or 5 Sadly the only BMW I have left is an E21 but its the 6cyl 4bbl manual imported privately into Australia in 1983, its date of Naisance. Must have been a last run or a parts car..Has Bilstein Eibach suspension (advertised Qld BMW club website). Not great chassis compared with the later cars but a good road car, no power steer no aircond...nice little car. I forgot it in my car-go-round earlier.
The warranty comment of yours was fair enough too...I think it is more common today to not have to only use the facrtory garages but of course the factory wants the little guys out of business and the expensive coputer software has knocked a lot on the head but commonsense diagnosis fixes more cars than lame brained relying on the computer and abrogating the old time skills.
Cheers.
Cheers
I wasn't thinking of the impressive and still impressive Suburu get up and go but in terms of how it hit the market, like you said...nicked..(great for bank jobs etc) but although still running well and still getting there in rallies the shine, that rave review car has, to me, slipped? The Cosworth would be known by less ordinary people than the Suburu also, I didn't mention that either so there's a flip the coin. The Peugeots 10's and 20's are a fine looking piece of sardine can, sure but they work well all around and haven't gone quite ordinary like most cars. Shared usage has stopped the distinctive car market largely. You heard me on the new RX..nice at the rear horribler than the Megane rear at the front. The Megane though gets top marks in the mechanicals, but I'd feel nicer in a MK&Sprite for looks.
I have had interesting odd cars in one way or another, the R5 Turbo, the BX sport (a bit sportier with twin webers limited prod) but I cn only repeat I am a thorough fan of the horizontally opposed motor. Forget the Kamanghia which I loved the first time I tuned and drove one 40 years ago and still love but I bought a flachbau Porsche the other year...same thing great motor. So, when it gets to the classic conundrum it becomes for some personal. I'd still rather have an M3 or 5 Sadly the only BMW I have left is an E21 but its the 6cyl 4bbl manual imported privately into Australia in 1983, its date of Naisance. Must have been a last run or a parts car..Has Bilstein Eibach suspension (advertised Qld BMW club website). Not great chassis compared with the later cars but a good road car, no power steer no aircond...nice little car. I forgot it in my car-go-round earlier.
The warranty comment of yours was fair enough too...I think it is more common today to not have to only use the facrtory garages but of course the factory wants the little guys out of business and the expensive coputer software has knocked a lot on the head but commonsense diagnosis fixes more cars than lame brained relying on the computer and abrogating the old time skills.
Cheers.
Cheers
That was a Mk1 Sprite I meant!! I used to do over Fiats esp the 2300 sports coupes and also the lotus' but the developement of the chip ECU really puts alot of this to sleep. Like that weber roar still though....
Before anyone says it, even with Sports suspenson the BX Citroen is nearly as bad as the holdens up to 1970 on suspension..how bad!! Still the thing is that I have driven them...cheap thrills expensive spills...maybe!!??
Cheers
Before anyone says it, even with Sports suspenson the BX Citroen is nearly as bad as the holdens up to 1970 on suspension..how bad!! Still the thing is that I have driven them...cheap thrills expensive spills...maybe!!??
Cheers
yeah right said:Wasn't the selling feature of that car, the fact that you could get 2 oil drums in the boot?
I had a few Leyland P76 V8's and they were a great driving car even though the use of unpainted galvanised iron in some places was a bit eyebrow raising..
I have fond memories of an Outback road trip in a white P76, back in '84, when I was working in construction in W.A.
Hi
Precisely..quaint you remember. The Force7 was going to be the sports version and looked good but leyland and I think we are speaking of the company who destroyed the look of the MG..(!! more dissent heheheh) decided to can it...they bring big dollars when up for sale but can "never" be put on the road...unlike some hot rods with steering arms so long the cars wander across the road. I was in an Olds motored fibreglass bodied T (weighed about 6ozs all up) one time with young Peter Hughes of Ivan A Hughes Tempe "the Buick King "fame. The hotted motor was 455ci or there abouts and he was drivng like an ice cold raven black haired demon emitting grunts of escalating delight as we went through the back of Bexley at about 160mph with the car drifting across the road (across all lanes and close to the kerbs) and back...but you cannot register a force 7!One wonders...
I had a Mercedes at the P76 time and the P76 was the superior car to drive, especially in the dirt(I lived about 330k west of Sydney at the time, having completed ag science and some years working with JD Wilton the master horseman, was looking to work with problem horses. In that slippery red dust the P76 was just a magic car.
I gather you have retreated to UK, the renowned tax haven of the world...with your fortune gleaned under the bronzing Australian sun. Another bloke made a little quid there...his name??...Hmmm Bond..that's it ...Bond ..Alan Bond, he was British (by origin) too. Must be the right place. "He" won a big yacht race one time knowing (sorry 'in my opinion')he had bankrupted "his" companies, knowing he could not pay the real winners and designers ² but desperate for the win to get himself noticed.Did you ever hear about that chap when in Perth? Having smiled about that in seriousness...Western Australia has produced some vast number of millionaires.Remeber the Perth airport..like a bush aerodrome, but peaceful.
One young chap I know, useless enough already, sacked again, went to WA as a "Carpenter" like the old Aussie "Italian Carpenter", "a trade achieved once knowing how to drive a nail through a piece of pine" we said on the construction sites where I spent many years..anyway he started buying up houses in the mining towns where he worked and renting them out..did very very well..!
Anyway have a beer on the P76..the 6 had no charisma but the V8 in the right colour(not white!!) was a nice looking car.The gearbox was Chrysler, the motor Rover (ie ex early Oldsmobile...same as Buick but with an extra head stud..but they still blew gaskets, just less than Buick!
Cheers
Precisely..quaint you remember. The Force7 was going to be the sports version and looked good but leyland and I think we are speaking of the company who destroyed the look of the MG..(!! more dissent heheheh) decided to can it...they bring big dollars when up for sale but can "never" be put on the road...unlike some hot rods with steering arms so long the cars wander across the road. I was in an Olds motored fibreglass bodied T (weighed about 6ozs all up) one time with young Peter Hughes of Ivan A Hughes Tempe "the Buick King "fame. The hotted motor was 455ci or there abouts and he was drivng like an ice cold raven black haired demon emitting grunts of escalating delight as we went through the back of Bexley at about 160mph with the car drifting across the road (across all lanes and close to the kerbs) and back...but you cannot register a force 7!One wonders...
I had a Mercedes at the P76 time and the P76 was the superior car to drive, especially in the dirt(I lived about 330k west of Sydney at the time, having completed ag science and some years working with JD Wilton the master horseman, was looking to work with problem horses. In that slippery red dust the P76 was just a magic car.
I gather you have retreated to UK, the renowned tax haven of the world...with your fortune gleaned under the bronzing Australian sun. Another bloke made a little quid there...his name??...Hmmm Bond..that's it ...Bond ..Alan Bond, he was British (by origin) too. Must be the right place. "He" won a big yacht race one time knowing (sorry 'in my opinion')he had bankrupted "his" companies, knowing he could not pay the real winners and designers ² but desperate for the win to get himself noticed.Did you ever hear about that chap when in Perth? Having smiled about that in seriousness...Western Australia has produced some vast number of millionaires.Remeber the Perth airport..like a bush aerodrome, but peaceful.
One young chap I know, useless enough already, sacked again, went to WA as a "Carpenter" like the old Aussie "Italian Carpenter", "a trade achieved once knowing how to drive a nail through a piece of pine" we said on the construction sites where I spent many years..anyway he started buying up houses in the mining towns where he worked and renting them out..did very very well..!
Anyway have a beer on the P76..the 6 had no charisma but the V8 in the right colour(not white!!) was a nice looking car.The gearbox was Chrysler, the motor Rover (ie ex early Oldsmobile...same as Buick but with an extra head stud..but they still blew gaskets, just less than Buick!
Cheers
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