Genuine G4 wanted
Discussion
Hard to find anything racewise in the UK now.
There are a couple in the US at silly money (one is £48,000!) but there is one in Holland at almost half this, £25k which to me at a quick glance, chassis 174, looks good - is very good, if genuine - if I was after a comp. car I would be tempted ('after' further investigation)!
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C177727/
There are a couple in the US at silly money (one is £48,000!) but there is one in Holland at almost half this, £25k which to me at a quick glance, chassis 174, looks good - is very good, if genuine - if I was after a comp. car I would be tempted ('after' further investigation)!
http://www.carandclassic.co.uk/car/C177727/
Comadis said:
"What's not genuine about a Dare G4?"
xplain me how you want to participate in historic races with a Dare?
The ironic thing is if you take a look some 'genuine' 60s G4s that have been restored, and then compare it with a Dare G4.xplain me how you want to participate in historic races with a Dare?
The Dare is probably nearer to the original concept than the restored one is!
When did an original G4 ever have alloy panelling everywhere inside like this?
And this one is a snip at £48K !
Comadis said:
"What's not genuine about a Dare G4?"
Explain me how you want to participate in historic races with a Dare?
You are funny people " for one DARE is a company name not the product they make' they produce a variety of different models' some of which are GINETTA'S the Ginetta G4 & the Ginetta G12. All series were sold from Ginetta car's Ltd back in the 90's including the name & the badge.Explain me how you want to participate in historic races with a Dare?
DARE UK have the sole right to make them. So, a car, ( G4 or 12 ) made by them is a GINETTA G4 or 12 not a
Dare G4 or 12 but legally a GINETTA G4 or G12 manufactured by DARE UK . DO YOU UNDERSTAND
Any car claiming to be a G4 or G12 (unless made by Ginetta up until the projects was sold by them or made by DARE UK) but made by someone else is not a Ginetta DO YOU UNDERSTAND
DARE can & do make Ginetta G4S1-Ginetta G4S1'IRS -Ginetta G4S2 -Ginetta G4S3 etc... and the Ginetta G4 with the Zetec engine and IRS and long wheel base version and all the other current variations on the theme.
Since DARE UK is the Walklett's the original designer and manufacturers and have all the original moulds and gigs and knowledge of these products, you can not get a more original manufactured product from anywhere else and depending on your choice of model can easily achieve an historic passport (continuation) from the FIA.
well said Jack..!
There is a slight confusion here though.
As when people on here refer to a 'DARE' G4 it is assumed that they are referring to those cars made since around 1995 onwards with the Dare updated bodywork/ square tube chassis.
So..... A Dare G4 as defined above will of course not be eliblible for historic racing. BUT a DARE-built continuation G4 (e.g. Series 1 round-tube chassis with precrossflow) will be eligible for HTP papers
There is a slight confusion here though.
As when people on here refer to a 'DARE' G4 it is assumed that they are referring to those cars made since around 1995 onwards with the Dare updated bodywork/ square tube chassis.
So..... A Dare G4 as defined above will of course not be eliblible for historic racing. BUT a DARE-built continuation G4 (e.g. Series 1 round-tube chassis with precrossflow) will be eligible for HTP papers
Edited by geeeman on Wednesday 15th December 23:51
doesnt matter if dare has the rights or not or is nearer the original than a restored one:
in official historic races there is only one thing interesting: the car must be an orginal ginetta (from the paperwork)...not more, not less.
ok...there had been companies out-there who cloned your dare to be a ginetta...but it "seems" that the company changed hands cause of health reasons of former boss....lol............what an uninspired excuse.
in official historic races there is only one thing interesting: the car must be an orginal ginetta (from the paperwork)...not more, not less.
ok...there had been companies out-there who cloned your dare to be a ginetta...but it "seems" that the company changed hands cause of health reasons of former boss....lol............what an uninspired excuse.
Comadis said:
doesnt matter if dare has the rights or not or is nearer the original than a restored one:
in official historic races there is only one thing interesting: the car must be an orginal ginetta (from the paperwork)...not more, not less.
ok...there had been companies out-there who cloned your dare to be a ginetta...but it "seems" that the company changed hands cause of health reasons of former boss....lol............what an uninspired excuse.
I'm lost with that last sentence? Doesn't make any sense.in official historic races there is only one thing interesting: the car must be an orginal ginetta (from the paperwork)...not more, not less.
ok...there had been companies out-there who cloned your dare to be a ginetta...but it "seems" that the company changed hands cause of health reasons of former boss....lol............what an uninspired excuse.
There are people on this site who would do well to read up on UK Law that applies to Design Rights to check their facts, as there is every possibility that any 'rights' sold in 1990 by Martin Phaff may have expired.
UK Design Right gives you automatic protection (in the UK only) for the internal or external shape or configuration of an original design, and lasts either 10 years after the first marketing of products that use the design or 15 years after creation of the design, whichever is earlier.
A 'Registered Design' is protected for a maximum of 25 years from the date the application was filed, provided that the design was registered with the IP Office (or its equivalent at the time) and that registration is renewed every 5 years.
A non-registered design is protected in the UK for 15 years from the end of the calendar year where the design was first recorded in a design document or, if the
design was made available for sale or hire within 5 years, 10 years from the end of calendar year that first occurred.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/
UK Design Right gives you automatic protection (in the UK only) for the internal or external shape or configuration of an original design, and lasts either 10 years after the first marketing of products that use the design or 15 years after creation of the design, whichever is earlier.
A 'Registered Design' is protected for a maximum of 25 years from the date the application was filed, provided that the design was registered with the IP Office (or its equivalent at the time) and that registration is renewed every 5 years.
A non-registered design is protected in the UK for 15 years from the end of the calendar year where the design was first recorded in a design document or, if the
design was made available for sale or hire within 5 years, 10 years from the end of calendar year that first occurred.
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/
maybe the following copy e-mails will shed some light on the subject?
e-mail to me may 2010...
"The chassis and panels are Ginetta products. Not Dare. They are produced by us, a company 50% owned by Ginetta from moulds and jigs that are owned by Ginetta Cars. It is an official Ginetta continuation car with a chassis number.
The chassis is blasted and etch primed and then painted with high quality grey chassis paint.
The panels are trimmed and have had some basic shaping done - or they will be, one or two are still in the mould. There is a choice of rear end.
The engine is big valve. It turns freely but one must assume that it needs a full rebuild.
The wheels have racing wets on them.
Pictures (soon to go on the site) are attached.
All the best,
Spadge"
e-mail to me june 2010...
"All of the G12s we have done or part - supplied have been for race use.
The suspension is not /fully/ rose jointed. The front lower arms are as original like the G15 - tubular are available separately. The upper are tubular with inner bushes and an outer joint and taper to give adjustable camber. There are rose joints on almost all of the rear except the inner of the upper link which is bushed as original.
Spitfire front uprights with 4" pcd iron hubs are included
Price list is attached but I can't supply a Hewland
The dash is included as are all the fibreglass panels you need under the front and to cover the hinges etc.
The body is not fitted so it is floppy and you will need a flat sheet for the floor. You would also need to choose a rear end style.
An open trailer would be tricky unless you have a large estate car or van I'd think.
Dare have the rights to nothing. They were building stuff for some Japanese who were sold non-existent rights by the prvious owners of Ginetta. It's all quite complicated!
All the best
Spadge"
e-mail to me may 2010...
"The chassis and panels are Ginetta products. Not Dare. They are produced by us, a company 50% owned by Ginetta from moulds and jigs that are owned by Ginetta Cars. It is an official Ginetta continuation car with a chassis number.
The chassis is blasted and etch primed and then painted with high quality grey chassis paint.
The panels are trimmed and have had some basic shaping done - or they will be, one or two are still in the mould. There is a choice of rear end.
The engine is big valve. It turns freely but one must assume that it needs a full rebuild.
The wheels have racing wets on them.
Pictures (soon to go on the site) are attached.
All the best,
Spadge"
e-mail to me june 2010...
"All of the G12s we have done or part - supplied have been for race use.
The suspension is not /fully/ rose jointed. The front lower arms are as original like the G15 - tubular are available separately. The upper are tubular with inner bushes and an outer joint and taper to give adjustable camber. There are rose joints on almost all of the rear except the inner of the upper link which is bushed as original.
Spitfire front uprights with 4" pcd iron hubs are included
Price list is attached but I can't supply a Hewland
The dash is included as are all the fibreglass panels you need under the front and to cover the hinges etc.
The body is not fitted so it is floppy and you will need a flat sheet for the floor. You would also need to choose a rear end style.
An open trailer would be tricky unless you have a large estate car or van I'd think.
Dare have the rights to nothing. They were building stuff for some Japanese who were sold non-existent rights by the prvious owners of Ginetta. It's all quite complicated!
All the best
Spadge"
I'm not sure why hysterics might commence..??
You make a fair point, guys, but you may be passing judgement while not in possession of all 'material facts'.
First, at no time were any of the e-mails, either by, or to, me considered [as far as I was concerned, anyway] private, and were certainly not labelled as such by Spadge. The info in the ones I have copied is neither sensitive nor personal.
Second, the assertions made in the e-mails by Spadge were in his capacity as [joint?] proprietor of Ginetta Heritage, not as an individual. It would surely be assumed that in such a capacity, his statements on the 'Ginetta' issue would be sanctioned by his 'partner' i.e. Ginetta Cars.
Third, I had sent Spadge at least half a dozen e-mails [at different addresses] on another [private, and not for publication] matter just before, and just after, he left GH - he chose to reply to none. I have no means of contacting him, but if anyone knows how I may do so, I would be obliged for any info. [just out of interest, I was brought up in an old school tradition, which means that I would never say anything behind someone's back that I wuldn't say to their face. I am happy that if anyone cared, any or all e-mails I have sent to anyone could be published anywhere. Eat your heart out, wikileaks...]
Fourth, clarification of the situation vis-a-vis Ginetta and Dare would, I believe, be considered to be in the general interest of owners of both 'marques'[or should it be one marque, but two manufacturers..?], and the 'publication' of e-mails giving some info on the matter would seem to be justified.
Finally, as far as I am concerned, it is all academic anyway. I can appreciate the design, looks and performance of a G4, whether it is an original, continuation or new...Arguments about design, name or badge rights would seem to be better left to lawyers....
You make a fair point, guys, but you may be passing judgement while not in possession of all 'material facts'.
First, at no time were any of the e-mails, either by, or to, me considered [as far as I was concerned, anyway] private, and were certainly not labelled as such by Spadge. The info in the ones I have copied is neither sensitive nor personal.
Second, the assertions made in the e-mails by Spadge were in his capacity as [joint?] proprietor of Ginetta Heritage, not as an individual. It would surely be assumed that in such a capacity, his statements on the 'Ginetta' issue would be sanctioned by his 'partner' i.e. Ginetta Cars.
Third, I had sent Spadge at least half a dozen e-mails [at different addresses] on another [private, and not for publication] matter just before, and just after, he left GH - he chose to reply to none. I have no means of contacting him, but if anyone knows how I may do so, I would be obliged for any info. [just out of interest, I was brought up in an old school tradition, which means that I would never say anything behind someone's back that I wuldn't say to their face. I am happy that if anyone cared, any or all e-mails I have sent to anyone could be published anywhere. Eat your heart out, wikileaks...]
Fourth, clarification of the situation vis-a-vis Ginetta and Dare would, I believe, be considered to be in the general interest of owners of both 'marques'[or should it be one marque, but two manufacturers..?], and the 'publication' of e-mails giving some info on the matter would seem to be justified.
Finally, as far as I am concerned, it is all academic anyway. I can appreciate the design, looks and performance of a G4, whether it is an original, continuation or new...Arguments about design, name or badge rights would seem to be better left to lawyers....
Edited by g15wiz on Monday 20th December 16:50
g15wiz said:
I'm not sure why hysterics might commence..??
You make a fair point, guys, but you may be passing judgement while not in possession of all 'material facts'.
First, at no time were any of the e-mails, either by, or to, me considered [as far as I was concerned, anyway] private, and were certainly not labelled as such by Spadge. The info in the ones I have copied is neither sensitive nor personal.
Second, the assertions made in the e-mails by Spadge were in his capacity as [joint?] proprietor of Ginetta Heritage, not as an individual. It would surely be assumed that in such a capacity, his statements on the 'Ginetta' issue would be sanctioned by his 'partner' i.e. Ginetta Cars.
Third, I had sent Spadge at least half a dozen e-mails [at different addresses] on another [private, and not for publication] matter just before, and just after, he left GH - he chose to reply to none. I have no means of contacting him, but if anyone knows how I may do so, I would be obliged for any info. [just out of interest, I was brought up in an old school tradition, which means that I would never say anything behind someone's back that I wuldn't say to their face. I am happy that if anyone cared, any or all e-mails I have sent to anyone could be published anywhere. Eat your heart out, wikileaks...]
Fourth, clarification of the situation vis-a-vis Ginetta and Dare would, I believe, be considered to be in the general interest of owners of both 'marques'[or should it be one marque, but two manufacturers..?], and the 'publication' of e-mails giving some info on the matter would seem to be justified.
Finally, as far as I am concerned, it is all academic anyway. I can appreciate the design, looks and performance of a G4, whether it is an original, continuation or new...Arguments about design, name or badge rights would seem to be better left to lawyers....
So Spadge has done another flit has he?You make a fair point, guys, but you may be passing judgement while not in possession of all 'material facts'.
First, at no time were any of the e-mails, either by, or to, me considered [as far as I was concerned, anyway] private, and were certainly not labelled as such by Spadge. The info in the ones I have copied is neither sensitive nor personal.
Second, the assertions made in the e-mails by Spadge were in his capacity as [joint?] proprietor of Ginetta Heritage, not as an individual. It would surely be assumed that in such a capacity, his statements on the 'Ginetta' issue would be sanctioned by his 'partner' i.e. Ginetta Cars.
Third, I had sent Spadge at least half a dozen e-mails [at different addresses] on another [private, and not for publication] matter just before, and just after, he left GH - he chose to reply to none. I have no means of contacting him, but if anyone knows how I may do so, I would be obliged for any info. [just out of interest, I was brought up in an old school tradition, which means that I would never say anything behind someone's back that I wuldn't say to their face. I am happy that if anyone cared, any or all e-mails I have sent to anyone could be published anywhere. Eat your heart out, wikileaks...]
Fourth, clarification of the situation vis-a-vis Ginetta and Dare would, I believe, be considered to be in the general interest of owners of both 'marques'[or should it be one marque, but two manufacturers..?], and the 'publication' of e-mails giving some info on the matter would seem to be justified.
Finally, as far as I am concerned, it is all academic anyway. I can appreciate the design, looks and performance of a G4, whether it is an original, continuation or new...Arguments about design, name or badge rights would seem to be better left to lawyers....
Edited by g15wiz on Monday 20th December 16:50
Fraudulently misrpresents a car he sold to me in 2005 and when after 2+ years I tire of lame excuses and no action to rectify and pursue him through the courts he puts Cottage Classics through - only for Ginetta Heritage to rise like a phoenix trading on the goodwill of the old company; he even had stuff on the website referring to Ginetta activity before GH was incorporated.
Earlier this year I started proceedings against him again as GH and the first hearing was in September. Draw your own conclusions.
Buyer beware - as shown above it looks as if he's now selling off CC and GH assets cheaply
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