Important decision - where to move?
Discussion
Hi guys,
The wife and I have been looking to move for a few months and we've done loads of research, visited a lot of areas, talked to locals and we're really struggling to fall in love with an area and I'm not sure if it's a case we've got too expensive tastes for our budget or we just haven't found the right house/area combination.
I'd say we've reached a bit of a dead end now and I need some honest unloaded opinions (so family is out) and so I resort to this forum which I hugely respect for its knowledge and which has been a real help to me in my research on this topic and many others over the years.
At the moment, the shortlist is:
Iver (aka Richings Park) PROS: 27m into Paddington, 40m to Canary Wharf (Crossrail), closest to Heathrow, close to M4 & M40 , nice semi-rural feel despite proximity to surroundings. Best value for money out of all the options. CONS: Surrounding Iver area and High Street not the best, lots of truck movements due to close-by trading estates, next to Slough and West Drayton. Travellers site about a 5 minute drive away. Clearly appeals to a West London demographic so wonder if it'll just feel like an extension of Greater London.
Twyford PROS: Waitrose so must be something good about it! From my research, seems to have a good community vibe. A nice high street with a couple of decent restaurants, CONS: A bit "townie" - quite dense compared to other options.
Shiplake PROS: Lovely quiet village, like the feeling of remoteness CONS: PRICEY! Not a lot of volume (which can be seen as a PRO too).
Wargrave I have to admit, I don't know much about it.
I've got 3 kids (11-7), all schooling in and will continue to be in Slough for next 11 years due to the grammar schools.
My budget is £1m-£1.1m for a (modernised, so no building works required, just redecoration and a few bits and bobs like bathrooms etc updated) 4/5 bedroom house, ideally 2 receptions, decent garden etc.
Happy to spend less on a doer-upper that needs building works but would need enough out of the budget to make a nice job of it. Seen plenty of houses that have a lot of potential but when you do the sums, the house will never be worth it and for me that doesn't make good financial sense so better to get something someone has already spent the money on.
NEEDS (ranked in priority order):
Walking distance to station
Safe area, where kids can walk the dog or cycle and grow to become independent young adults. So a good quality of life.
Station to station commute to Paddington (me) within 45 minutes and Slough (kids) within 30 minutes
3 kids so need at least 4 decent sized bedrooms to allow for desks etc.
Feeling of space. Minimum 2000sqft, ideally closer to 2500.
2 receptions - so when we entertain, oldies and kids can split into their own rooms
BONUS / SO LESS IMPORTANT:
Local shops / restaurants / coffee shops - a local pub or two will do.
Avoid interchange @ Reading Station (if we need to consider going further west)
5th (guest bedroom)
Study (as my wife and I do work from home or have to login/take calls in evenings)
Local schools as kids school in Slough
So a few questions:
1. Can anyone help provide their own experiences of the villages above? Good and bad.In what order would you rank them?
2. Are there any other villages (so Maidenhead is out) we should try?
3. Are our requirements realistic? If not, what would you suggest based on the NEEDS I've ranked in priority order? My concern is then we need to consider going west of Reading which adds to the commute (so quality of life) for me and the kids plus the cost of getting to work.
All help really appreciated.
Many thanks,
Gin_Man
The wife and I have been looking to move for a few months and we've done loads of research, visited a lot of areas, talked to locals and we're really struggling to fall in love with an area and I'm not sure if it's a case we've got too expensive tastes for our budget or we just haven't found the right house/area combination.
I'd say we've reached a bit of a dead end now and I need some honest unloaded opinions (so family is out) and so I resort to this forum which I hugely respect for its knowledge and which has been a real help to me in my research on this topic and many others over the years.
At the moment, the shortlist is:
Iver (aka Richings Park) PROS: 27m into Paddington, 40m to Canary Wharf (Crossrail), closest to Heathrow, close to M4 & M40 , nice semi-rural feel despite proximity to surroundings. Best value for money out of all the options. CONS: Surrounding Iver area and High Street not the best, lots of truck movements due to close-by trading estates, next to Slough and West Drayton. Travellers site about a 5 minute drive away. Clearly appeals to a West London demographic so wonder if it'll just feel like an extension of Greater London.
Twyford PROS: Waitrose so must be something good about it! From my research, seems to have a good community vibe. A nice high street with a couple of decent restaurants, CONS: A bit "townie" - quite dense compared to other options.
Shiplake PROS: Lovely quiet village, like the feeling of remoteness CONS: PRICEY! Not a lot of volume (which can be seen as a PRO too).
Wargrave I have to admit, I don't know much about it.
I've got 3 kids (11-7), all schooling in and will continue to be in Slough for next 11 years due to the grammar schools.
My budget is £1m-£1.1m for a (modernised, so no building works required, just redecoration and a few bits and bobs like bathrooms etc updated) 4/5 bedroom house, ideally 2 receptions, decent garden etc.
Happy to spend less on a doer-upper that needs building works but would need enough out of the budget to make a nice job of it. Seen plenty of houses that have a lot of potential but when you do the sums, the house will never be worth it and for me that doesn't make good financial sense so better to get something someone has already spent the money on.
NEEDS (ranked in priority order):
Walking distance to station
Safe area, where kids can walk the dog or cycle and grow to become independent young adults. So a good quality of life.
Station to station commute to Paddington (me) within 45 minutes and Slough (kids) within 30 minutes
3 kids so need at least 4 decent sized bedrooms to allow for desks etc.
Feeling of space. Minimum 2000sqft, ideally closer to 2500.
2 receptions - so when we entertain, oldies and kids can split into their own rooms
BONUS / SO LESS IMPORTANT:
Local shops / restaurants / coffee shops - a local pub or two will do.
Avoid interchange @ Reading Station (if we need to consider going further west)
5th (guest bedroom)
Study (as my wife and I do work from home or have to login/take calls in evenings)
Local schools as kids school in Slough
So a few questions:
1. Can anyone help provide their own experiences of the villages above? Good and bad.In what order would you rank them?
2. Are there any other villages (so Maidenhead is out) we should try?
3. Are our requirements realistic? If not, what would you suggest based on the NEEDS I've ranked in priority order? My concern is then we need to consider going west of Reading which adds to the commute (so quality of life) for me and the kids plus the cost of getting to work.
All help really appreciated.
Many thanks,
Gin_Man
We lived in Twyford for 11 years, and we liked it a lot. We were 5 mins walk from the village centre. It is quite a big place for a "village" but does have a good community feeling nevertheless. There's a wide range of local shops and services which is very convenient. Travel into both London and Slough on the train is easy, there are semi-fasts into Paddington during peak hours. It should be within your budget. Also, Theresa May does her shopping in that Waitrose !
The main thing I disliked about Twyford was aircraft noise. When Heathrow is doing landings from the west (which is about 20% of the time), it can be a bit obtrusive. But probably not that much different to anywhere along the Thames Valley between there and the airport. Also the 4 way lights in the village centre cause long queues at peak times.
Wargrave and Shiplake are much smaller, and travel is quite a bit less convenient due to having to change trains at Twyford. Both are much more "villagey" though, and also more expensive.
The main thing I disliked about Twyford was aircraft noise. When Heathrow is doing landings from the west (which is about 20% of the time), it can be a bit obtrusive. But probably not that much different to anywhere along the Thames Valley between there and the airport. Also the 4 way lights in the village centre cause long queues at peak times.
Wargrave and Shiplake are much smaller, and travel is quite a bit less convenient due to having to change trains at Twyford. Both are much more "villagey" though, and also more expensive.
You could alternatively try looking a little further north in South Bucks. £1MM may not get you what you want in Beaconsfield, but some of the surrounding villages might work.
This would be a PITA for the kids if you need to get to Slough every day, but there are grammar schools around if you'd consider moving them.
Chiltern Line from Beaconsfield is 25 mins into Marylebone.
This would be a PITA for the kids if you need to get to Slough every day, but there are grammar schools around if you'd consider moving them.
Chiltern Line from Beaconsfield is 25 mins into Marylebone.
Funny you downvote Maidenhead. I'm sure many don't like the idea of it and I can see why. Money no object, and with no kids, I'd prefer to live elsewhere (for a Thames side town it just doesn't really sparkle) but economics, and practicality means it works well for me. Certainly compared to the other places you list, Maidenhead would score higher in my opinion for a lot of reasons.
I know (because my wife constantly checks Rightmove) a nice condition 2-2500Sqm house in easy walking distance to the station would just does not exist under £1.1 mill+ so that may also be why you may discount the town. But there've been a fair few doer uppers for sale over the last year or so from £850kish if you were happy to take on a project.
But there's some good stuff and larger 70s-90s estates further out of town (Cox Green, Woodlands Park etc) if that takes your fancy, but then it is no longer an easy walt to the station. It's got good reat escape routes by road and rail out to the rest of the country for travel and commuting though (i used to do 1hr 5 minutes door to door to my old office in Liverpool Street - the quickest current commuter train to Paddington is 19 mins). Plus loads of development planned and in progress in the (already safe) town centre for shops, bars, housing and restos, which is improving the current "dead high street" condition. It has also has a big Waitrose!
All the South Bucks Grammars are in reach either by train (Burnham or Slough etc) or by school coach to Wycombe or Marlow grammars. The normal secondary schools in town are pretty good anyway so a fair few people don't bother putting their kids through the 11 plus. It's got an entertaining National League football club and decent and high performing rugby, rowing and cricket clubs. New sports center is opening in a couple of years. Cinema, Arts centre, all good...
Plane noise is not noticable - the planes tend to turn out over woodley/twyford for their final approach and head off in a straight line over Windsor and Datchet, I lived in Cippenham and it got pretty bad there for plane noise.
Iver isn't great, for all the reasons you list. Close to London, Uxbridge, Heathrow, M4 and M40 though.
If you're looking at Twyford, focus on Charvil, where you seem to get a more for your money. But for me facilities aren't that great but at least has enough so you don't need to travel far for essentials.
I really would not look further from Reading (if even as far as Reading), we moved to Pangbourne when I was younger and my sister stayed at St Bernards and commuted by train. I don;t think she ever forgave my parents as it was such a strain and effort for a 13-16yr old to travel up to an hour each way and she hated it.
Wargrave seems to have some good value houses, but the village centre only has some small shops and pubs so not much facilities so you'd be going to Henley or Twyford for supplies and evenings out, or off to Reading. The cheaper houses are up the steep hill which is a bit of a drag walking back from the station.
For other suggestions - look just over the other side of the river in Taplow - usually some nice value Edwardian houses in the Ellington Road area which will only increase once Crossrail kicks in but spome are good value now and would be an easy commute from Taplow to Slough there though the new development behind the VW garage has some shocking prices.
Also - Try Dorney Reach - is a bit out on a limb but makes it somewhat good value in some of the houses, especially those not refurbished. Has a nice community and friendly community Primary school. Would be a 15 min walk to Taplow station, some massive plots (especially the houses facing the fields - 100 metre gardens!), near the river and Dorney Lake for walks, but a bit close to the M4 which can make it a bit noisy. Easy to get to Windsor via Eton though.
I know (because my wife constantly checks Rightmove) a nice condition 2-2500Sqm house in easy walking distance to the station would just does not exist under £1.1 mill+ so that may also be why you may discount the town. But there've been a fair few doer uppers for sale over the last year or so from £850kish if you were happy to take on a project.
But there's some good stuff and larger 70s-90s estates further out of town (Cox Green, Woodlands Park etc) if that takes your fancy, but then it is no longer an easy walt to the station. It's got good reat escape routes by road and rail out to the rest of the country for travel and commuting though (i used to do 1hr 5 minutes door to door to my old office in Liverpool Street - the quickest current commuter train to Paddington is 19 mins). Plus loads of development planned and in progress in the (already safe) town centre for shops, bars, housing and restos, which is improving the current "dead high street" condition. It has also has a big Waitrose!
All the South Bucks Grammars are in reach either by train (Burnham or Slough etc) or by school coach to Wycombe or Marlow grammars. The normal secondary schools in town are pretty good anyway so a fair few people don't bother putting their kids through the 11 plus. It's got an entertaining National League football club and decent and high performing rugby, rowing and cricket clubs. New sports center is opening in a couple of years. Cinema, Arts centre, all good...
Plane noise is not noticable - the planes tend to turn out over woodley/twyford for their final approach and head off in a straight line over Windsor and Datchet, I lived in Cippenham and it got pretty bad there for plane noise.
Iver isn't great, for all the reasons you list. Close to London, Uxbridge, Heathrow, M4 and M40 though.
If you're looking at Twyford, focus on Charvil, where you seem to get a more for your money. But for me facilities aren't that great but at least has enough so you don't need to travel far for essentials.
I really would not look further from Reading (if even as far as Reading), we moved to Pangbourne when I was younger and my sister stayed at St Bernards and commuted by train. I don;t think she ever forgave my parents as it was such a strain and effort for a 13-16yr old to travel up to an hour each way and she hated it.
Wargrave seems to have some good value houses, but the village centre only has some small shops and pubs so not much facilities so you'd be going to Henley or Twyford for supplies and evenings out, or off to Reading. The cheaper houses are up the steep hill which is a bit of a drag walking back from the station.
For other suggestions - look just over the other side of the river in Taplow - usually some nice value Edwardian houses in the Ellington Road area which will only increase once Crossrail kicks in but spome are good value now and would be an easy commute from Taplow to Slough there though the new development behind the VW garage has some shocking prices.
Also - Try Dorney Reach - is a bit out on a limb but makes it somewhat good value in some of the houses, especially those not refurbished. Has a nice community and friendly community Primary school. Would be a 15 min walk to Taplow station, some massive plots (especially the houses facing the fields - 100 metre gardens!), near the river and Dorney Lake for walks, but a bit close to the M4 which can make it a bit noisy. Easy to get to Windsor via Eton though.
Edited by prand on Thursday 24th January 18:03
Great replies! Many thanks for taking the time and helping me out.
Will try to address points made......
Yes, appreciate Shiplake and Wargrave journeys are a bit more complex but also would like to be as rural as possible whilst maintaining the practicalities I've mentioned. Plane noise, motorway noise etc all comes with the territory but would like to maximise as much as possible the feeling of remoteness. I'm sure you guys can relate when you've been working your butt off, it's so lovely to just get home, shut that door and be back in your quiet bubble.
Slough is mandatory I'm afraid as my eldest worked his butt off (and next one is also in process) to pass the 11+ and he really likes school so don't want to risk moving him (even to another grammar) and him not settling.
@prand......
Maidenhead is going through a regeneration and you are right, perhaps because of my price filters, perhaps it's too pricey for me. But when I've driven through the areas (and I'm not saying I know it all), the impression I've got is that it's quite congested, a real mix bag of everything, doesn't have a real identity BUT super practical. We did check out a house on Rushfield Avenue which is a lovely road, 5 minutes walk to station (and town) but unfortunately the house was a bit too small even though it was well under budget but no real opportunity to extend. Nice roads like that seem rare close to station (it definitely felt it was in its own bubble) and that's why we moved away from Maidenhead being an option. I'm also concerned that houses along there and Braywick will be affected by the Golf Course development which many of those house back onto. May be worried about nothing but when you don't really know an area, you draw conclusions - whether they are right or wrong you don't know unless you speak to someone impartial.
I really like the river area in Maidenhead but, again, not walking distance to station. I don't think there are similar areas closer to the station as it's more congested?
Really great experience shared about your sister - these are the sort of life experiences that are invaluable to others. I used to travel about an hour to high school but just because I had to do it, doesn't mean it's fair on the kids. I've thought long and hard about what a reasonable commute is to Slough and Pangbourne to Slough is about the same as Shiplake and Wargrave to Slough so I'm wondering whether I should rule them out because of that.
Ellington Road in Taplow is not bad but it's a 20 min walk to the station. Add that to a 20 minute walk on the other side from Slough station to school and I think the kids would hate me for it. Especially, when it's chucking it down and would probably concern me a little when the days get shorter.
Finally, not sure Charvil is walking distance (<15 minutes for me) to the station?
Looks like all things are pointing to Twyford. Saw a nice house on Wargrave Road but missus wasn't happy due to road noise. We live on a quiet road now and we would love a cul-de-sac so kids can pootle around on bikes plus just got used to not having many cars driving (racing) past our house. Are there any such roads <15 minutes to the station?
The next problem is there doesn't seem to be any volume on the market. I don't think there's one house on the market that fits the criteria above. Yet, Twyford is a large village.
GM.
Will try to address points made......
Yes, appreciate Shiplake and Wargrave journeys are a bit more complex but also would like to be as rural as possible whilst maintaining the practicalities I've mentioned. Plane noise, motorway noise etc all comes with the territory but would like to maximise as much as possible the feeling of remoteness. I'm sure you guys can relate when you've been working your butt off, it's so lovely to just get home, shut that door and be back in your quiet bubble.
Slough is mandatory I'm afraid as my eldest worked his butt off (and next one is also in process) to pass the 11+ and he really likes school so don't want to risk moving him (even to another grammar) and him not settling.
@prand......
Maidenhead is going through a regeneration and you are right, perhaps because of my price filters, perhaps it's too pricey for me. But when I've driven through the areas (and I'm not saying I know it all), the impression I've got is that it's quite congested, a real mix bag of everything, doesn't have a real identity BUT super practical. We did check out a house on Rushfield Avenue which is a lovely road, 5 minutes walk to station (and town) but unfortunately the house was a bit too small even though it was well under budget but no real opportunity to extend. Nice roads like that seem rare close to station (it definitely felt it was in its own bubble) and that's why we moved away from Maidenhead being an option. I'm also concerned that houses along there and Braywick will be affected by the Golf Course development which many of those house back onto. May be worried about nothing but when you don't really know an area, you draw conclusions - whether they are right or wrong you don't know unless you speak to someone impartial.
I really like the river area in Maidenhead but, again, not walking distance to station. I don't think there are similar areas closer to the station as it's more congested?
Really great experience shared about your sister - these are the sort of life experiences that are invaluable to others. I used to travel about an hour to high school but just because I had to do it, doesn't mean it's fair on the kids. I've thought long and hard about what a reasonable commute is to Slough and Pangbourne to Slough is about the same as Shiplake and Wargrave to Slough so I'm wondering whether I should rule them out because of that.
Ellington Road in Taplow is not bad but it's a 20 min walk to the station. Add that to a 20 minute walk on the other side from Slough station to school and I think the kids would hate me for it. Especially, when it's chucking it down and would probably concern me a little when the days get shorter.
Finally, not sure Charvil is walking distance (<15 minutes for me) to the station?
Looks like all things are pointing to Twyford. Saw a nice house on Wargrave Road but missus wasn't happy due to road noise. We live on a quiet road now and we would love a cul-de-sac so kids can pootle around on bikes plus just got used to not having many cars driving (racing) past our house. Are there any such roads <15 minutes to the station?
The next problem is there doesn't seem to be any volume on the market. I don't think there's one house on the market that fits the criteria above. Yet, Twyford is a large village.
GM.
The jiffle king said:
Does Taplow work? On the slough train line, walk to station, village with pub?
We did consider but nothing I’ve seen in last 6 months within a 15 minutes walk (and not on Bath Road). It seems the village is disconnected from the train station? Here are some options but all are a compromise on the must haves:
Pointy garden - Northfield Road, Shiplake, Oxfordshire, RG9
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Layout - Badgers Walk, Shiplake, Henley-On-Thames, RG9
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Semi and downstairs space - Baskerville Lane, Shiplake, Henley-on-Thames, Oxfordshire, RG9
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/new-homes-for-sale/pro...
Busy road - Twyford, Berkshire.
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Expensive! Longfield Road, Twyford, Berkshire, RG10
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Do I need to accept I don’t have the budget or do I need to be more patient?
GM
Edited by Gin_Man on Saturday 26th January 10:25
Getting you children to Slough for school will be the issue. I assume you've checked out the school bus routes? We lived in Maidenhead but 2 of our children went to Marlow Sir William Borlase on the bus or trian. If my parents had asked me to get a train from Pangbourne to Sough every day I'd think they'd gone mad - seriously mad!
RichB said:
Getting you children to Slough for school will be the issue. I assume you've checked out the school bus routes? We lived in Maidenhead but 2 of our children went to Marlow Sir William Borlase on the bus or trian. If my parents had asked me to get a train from Pangbourne to Sough every day I'd think they'd gone mad - seriously mad!
I have and so this opens up the search to places like Ascot, Virginia Water, Engelfield Green but they are on the wrong train line for me as it would be a real PITA to get to Paddington as they are on the Waterloo line. Also, there’s one bus back so if they have to stay back for after school club, there’s no way for them to get back home apart from the missus picking them up or Uber (not happening!). Being on the Paddington line, we have the flexibility of picking them up or not if they want to do some extra curricular at school. I’m also thinking it teaches them independence and gives them the possibility of seeing their mates on the weekend without relying on us to chauffeur them everywhere.
GM.
Taplow village is a little disconnected from the station but many people make it work. It is within 15 minutes walk and meets the other criteria
Some Maidenhead options within your price range
Maidenhead option - close to the station, close to a park/nature reserve
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Planning permission, within price range and close to station
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Some Maidenhead options within your price range
Maidenhead option - close to the station, close to a park/nature reserve
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Planning permission, within price range and close to station
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
The jiffle king said:
Some Maidenhead options within your price range
But Gin man has said he doesn't want too much noise - Braywick Road is a nightmare in and out of town during the rush hour and the planes from Heathrow are getting closer and closer to Maidenhead as they take off. Give it a few years and instead of climbing out over Taplow they'll be climbing less steeply (saving fuel) and climbing north right over Maidenhead... Gin_Man said:
The Moose said:
Everything except the budget says Beaconsfield to me.
As previously mentioned above, it’s a pig to get to Slough from Beaconsfield. Plus not being in budget is pretty fundamental!! RichB said:
The jiffle king said:
Some Maidenhead options within your price range
But Gin man has said he doesn't want too much noise - Braywick Road is a nightmare in and out of town during the rush hour and the planes from Heathrow are getting closer and closer to Maidenhead as they take off. Give it a few years and instead of climbing out over Taplow they'll be climbing less steeply (saving fuel) and climbing north right over Maidenhead... I think he may have to compromises some requirements
The jiffle king said:
Taplow village is a little disconnected from the station but many people make it work. It is within 15 minutes walk and meets the other criteria
Some Maidenhead options within your price range
Maidenhead option - close to the station, close to a park/nature reserve
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Planning permission, within price range and close to station
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
The last 2 are lovely. The penultimate is on Braywick but been developed when people have sold their gardens to a developer so is set slightly back in a cul-de-sac. At £1.25m and £1.2m respectively though, they are out of my £1.1m budget. I know, from bitter experience, the market is flat and everything is being reduced but I don't think they'd take £150K and £100K off their prices respectively. People asked me to do the same when we were selling ours and I found it offensive (taking the p!ss). Some Maidenhead options within your price range
Maidenhead option - close to the station, close to a park/nature reserve
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
Planning permission, within price range and close to station
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/prop...
outnumbered said:
We lived in Twyford for 11 years, and we liked it a lot. We were 5 mins walk from the village centre. It is quite a big place for a "village" but does have a good community feeling nevertheless. There's a wide range of local shops and services which is very convenient. Travel into both London and Slough on the train is easy, there are semi-fasts into Paddington during peak hours. It should be within your budget. Also, Theresa May does her shopping in that Waitrose !
Any particular roads you'd recommend that are quiet but walking distance to the station? geeks said:
OP, is Denham or Uxbridge too far? Willow Bank is beautiful if anything is available. Denham Deep and Denham Green are lovely and in budget, they are converting the old film studio, might not be to everyone's taste but there is some lovely amenities with that!
Geeks, again challenge is for kids to get to Slough. I'd also prefer Paddington line as I work in Paddington so no need to get a travelcard extension :-)Gin_Man said:
The jiffle king said:
The last 2 are lovely. Edited by RichB on Saturday 26th January 18:03
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