Honda K20 engines
Discussion
Other than Trademe, try Strongs Honda, they've usually got a few.
Head on over to www.nzhondas.com... if there's any for sale in the country, they'll know about 'em
Head on over to www.nzhondas.com... if there's any for sale in the country, they'll know about 'em
Barry, do you only want a K20? Why not an F20C or the rarer F22C?
If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
cheddar said:
Barry, do you only want a K20? Why not an F20C or the rarer F22C?
If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
One presumes it may be slotting into the back of an Elise, in which case an F20C wouldn't fit quite so well If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
cheddar said:
Barry, do you only want a K20? Why not an F20C or the rarer F22C?
If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
K20A is the best of the modern Honda's. F20c is only VTEC, K20A is iVTEC. K20a has a better torque curve and with a decent manifold and map makes more at the top end. Mine makes 232hp at the hubs, so approx. 260hp at the flywheel and over 160ftlb of torque.If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
Good example here. Me chasing Dean Harper K20a powered Elise (Dean has decent manifold and map), I have avg. manifold and map (201hp at hubs).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTAp9_r54kI
iwilson said:
cheddar said:
Barry, do you only want a K20? Why not an F20C or the rarer F22C?
If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
K20A is the best of the modern Honda's. F20c is only VTEC, K20A is iVTEC. K20a has a better torque curve and with a decent manifold and map makes more at the top end. Mine makes 232hp at the hubs, so approx. 260hp at the flywheel and over 160ftlb of torque.If K20, this any good ----> http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
Good example here. Me chasing Dean Harper K20a powered Elise (Dean has decent manifold and map), I have avg. manifold and map (201hp at hubs).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTAp9_r54kI
Cheddar pointed out the K20A on Trade me http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Car-parts...
Is this the correct version of the K20A that i require ? price seems cheap by comparison to others availble ?
GravelBen said:
<Ben starts plotting a Subaru-powered Elise just to really piss off the purists>
Why not... its amazing what the do with em http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyI...Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 3rd November 04:40
There are a number of versions of the engine. To long a list to write out here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honda_K_engine
There are two engines worth looking at the JDM K20A and the Euro K20A2. 90% of Elise conversions have used the K20A2 because that's the easiest engine to get a hold of in the UK. The JDM has different gear ratios (lower), an LSD, a weird and expensive wideband 02 sensor, higher compression ratio, different inlet manifold and hotter cams. The difference in power is barely noticeable between the two. Also the wiring loom/ECU changed around 2005 for the US K20A meaning problems getting a KPRO to work (daughter board that plugs into the ECU allowing tuning). Don't know if this affected the JDM as well but I would imagine so. A KPRO is essential to get the best out of the engine in a conversion since the exhaust manifold is very different to the stock unit.
Barry what is it you trying to do?
There are two engines worth looking at the JDM K20A and the Euro K20A2. 90% of Elise conversions have used the K20A2 because that's the easiest engine to get a hold of in the UK. The JDM has different gear ratios (lower), an LSD, a weird and expensive wideband 02 sensor, higher compression ratio, different inlet manifold and hotter cams. The difference in power is barely noticeable between the two. Also the wiring loom/ECU changed around 2005 for the US K20A meaning problems getting a KPRO to work (daughter board that plugs into the ECU allowing tuning). Don't know if this affected the JDM as well but I would imagine so. A KPRO is essential to get the best out of the engine in a conversion since the exhaust manifold is very different to the stock unit.
Barry what is it you trying to do?
Barry, welcome to the very small world of Lotus ownership. As I understand you've just sold the Toyota lump and have set your eyes on Honda power. If you're not a member of Seloc you need to become one. There is no requirement to source from the UK, engines do appear here or can be had from Malaysia. It's not as straight forward as it may seem and I know from bitter experience.
This is my first Honda engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNprhBlFOHw
I did mine 6 years ago, so I'm a bit rusty now and the S2 Toyota is a different beast from a conversion perspective. But you have got in touch with the right guy aka Simon Scuffham how much he's prepared to help you is another question, his inbox is usually full of questions like yours.
This is my first Honda engine.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNprhBlFOHw
I did mine 6 years ago, so I'm a bit rusty now and the S2 Toyota is a different beast from a conversion perspective. But you have got in touch with the right guy aka Simon Scuffham how much he's prepared to help you is another question, his inbox is usually full of questions like yours.
Hi
Thanks for the info re the K20 .
What am I trying to do ? Recently sold my 05 Exige with Toyota NA . Loved the car , but decided I wanted to build a full on track car only.
The Exige was a little expensive to start pulling apart and turning into track only , so looking to Purchase either a Rover Exige or Elise and use this is s the starting point to create the car
Ideally would like to buy a good car with blown engine , but no crash damage. Have come across one in San Francisco, its an Elise S2 with no motor. Ideal , so see what happens
As far as mods go .
K20 engine/ Transmission NA initially , but may look at SC down the line , want to look at what mods are avail that produce reliable power / also will look to add close ratio gears .
ECU In decision something like Hondata or AME
Weight Reduction , If possible would like to the final figure around 700 kg
Full race specs to Suspension- Ohlin / brakes- AP / uprights Nitron
Convert to single centre seat
Hopefully that gives an idea of what I am trying to achieve
Presently just researching the Engine kit and it seems that there are a few cowboys out there , Have been in contact with Sunspeed , but they dont get a rave review in the USA Lotus forum . I noted your comments regarding another guy who was tied up with me previously . Well done alerting everyone to this guy.
Can you recommend a kit to chase up ?
You mentioned Simon Scuffham , he is with Elise/ Honda ? Would he sell a kit , or have I got this wrong ?
Obviously the engine needs to be sorted , do you know where I can purchase new ? You also mentioned Malaysia , any contacts there.
Currently have another car project on the go , so no rush to get started , but would like to start collect parts as they come along .
Thanks for the info re the K20 .
What am I trying to do ? Recently sold my 05 Exige with Toyota NA . Loved the car , but decided I wanted to build a full on track car only.
The Exige was a little expensive to start pulling apart and turning into track only , so looking to Purchase either a Rover Exige or Elise and use this is s the starting point to create the car
Ideally would like to buy a good car with blown engine , but no crash damage. Have come across one in San Francisco, its an Elise S2 with no motor. Ideal , so see what happens
As far as mods go .
K20 engine/ Transmission NA initially , but may look at SC down the line , want to look at what mods are avail that produce reliable power / also will look to add close ratio gears .
ECU In decision something like Hondata or AME
Weight Reduction , If possible would like to the final figure around 700 kg
Full race specs to Suspension- Ohlin / brakes- AP / uprights Nitron
Convert to single centre seat
Hopefully that gives an idea of what I am trying to achieve
Presently just researching the Engine kit and it seems that there are a few cowboys out there , Have been in contact with Sunspeed , but they dont get a rave review in the USA Lotus forum . I noted your comments regarding another guy who was tied up with me previously . Well done alerting everyone to this guy.
Can you recommend a kit to chase up ?
You mentioned Simon Scuffham , he is with Elise/ Honda ? Would he sell a kit , or have I got this wrong ?
Obviously the engine needs to be sorted , do you know where I can purchase new ? You also mentioned Malaysia , any contacts there.
Currently have another car project on the go , so no rush to get started , but would like to start collect parts as they come along .
Barry, thanks for stating your position, makes things a little easier to understand.
From a cost point of view, you're probably best off buying a pre-converted car in the UK and importing it. This will invariably be MUCH cheaper as a base and give more funds left over for modifying afterwards.
Having said that, there's something to be said for doing it all yourself so everything can be done to your specs.
As I'm aware there are 5 Honda-powered Elises in NZ.
Ian's N/A K20 S1 (Converted DIY fashion in Europe)
Ex Dean Harper N/A K20 S1 (Converted DIY fashion here)
Shaun Bosson's N/A K24A S2 (Converted by KW Historics here using (I believe) a Sinclaires Kit.
Willy Heatley's S/C K20A S2 Sport 111 Type 23 Converted at KW in partnership with Kirrapak Australia using a LinkUP kit
Ex James Smith S/C K20A S2. Converted by Maidstone Sports Cars in the UK
Willy's car is probably the best example of what can be achieved by throwing a lot of time and money on it, his car is already a long way towards what you speak of as an ultimate goal.
As for getting conversions done, Simon is a good person to talk to, he's one of the men behind the Link-Up kit (www.hondaelise.com), which is probably one of the best kits out there. Kirrapak are the Australian agents for this kit. I'd go with one of the established kits as you'll end up with a far better product in the end.... having seen the huge amount of work Dean and Ian put into their cars over the years to work the kinks out, it's worth paying for something that someone's done the work on.
As for a donor engine... get one locally, there are plenty of JDM engines here, they come up occasionally, but consistently. There are plenty of EP3 Civics and DC5R Integras in NZ now, nearly all Jap imports... they fall off the road nd end up being parted out. Forget importing an engine from anywhere else. alternatively, buy yourself a DC5R Integra, Pinch the engine, box and loom, and part the rest out on Trademe.
As for your ultimate goal, be prepared to spend and spend large.
Getting a Honda-powered car down to 700kg is a VERY tough ask... can be done, but be prepared to spend up large. Also it won't be roadable in this state as you'll need to strip it well beyond a road-legal spec to get into this state.
With this weight target, you really want to start with an Early S1, as this is the lightest base. These in stock form are about 700. But then when you bear in mind that you'll be adding about 50kg with the engine swap and ancillaries (it's not just the weight of the engine and box, you'll be adding extra things like oil coolers, heavier driveshafts, heat shielding etc. Also bear in mind you'll need to also go heavier on the brakes etc and larger (heavier) tyres. Also budget some significant weight for a MSNZ cage if you actually want to race it as more than a clubsport car (thanks to our bloomin' stupid non-equivalency laws)
All of this means you'll be looking at stripping a good 70-80kg out of the car, which is just a HUGE task.... it can be done, but it'll take a lot of work. Good luck to you if you decide to go ahead and do it though, it's the sort of project I enjoy seeing
Take a look at my Exige rebuild thread in this forum ( CLICKY) as this gives you some kind of idea of the work involved when taking on a project with these cars. Mine's on a different route, as I'm trying to create an ultimate track car without butchering the original car... but it does give you an idea.
For reference, I'm pretty sure my pile of receipts for doing this adds up to about $35-40k and is still ticking over at an alarming rate, with the end still not really in sight.
The rough goal for mine is 300bhp/tonne, with a target of ~230bhp and a target weight of 750kg wet. Probably won't hit this right away when it's back together but will creep up on it over the next few years.
From a cost point of view, you're probably best off buying a pre-converted car in the UK and importing it. This will invariably be MUCH cheaper as a base and give more funds left over for modifying afterwards.
Having said that, there's something to be said for doing it all yourself so everything can be done to your specs.
As I'm aware there are 5 Honda-powered Elises in NZ.
Ian's N/A K20 S1 (Converted DIY fashion in Europe)
Ex Dean Harper N/A K20 S1 (Converted DIY fashion here)
Shaun Bosson's N/A K24A S2 (Converted by KW Historics here using (I believe) a Sinclaires Kit.
Willy Heatley's S/C K20A S2 Sport 111 Type 23 Converted at KW in partnership with Kirrapak Australia using a LinkUP kit
Ex James Smith S/C K20A S2. Converted by Maidstone Sports Cars in the UK
Willy's car is probably the best example of what can be achieved by throwing a lot of time and money on it, his car is already a long way towards what you speak of as an ultimate goal.
As for getting conversions done, Simon is a good person to talk to, he's one of the men behind the Link-Up kit (www.hondaelise.com), which is probably one of the best kits out there. Kirrapak are the Australian agents for this kit. I'd go with one of the established kits as you'll end up with a far better product in the end.... having seen the huge amount of work Dean and Ian put into their cars over the years to work the kinks out, it's worth paying for something that someone's done the work on.
As for a donor engine... get one locally, there are plenty of JDM engines here, they come up occasionally, but consistently. There are plenty of EP3 Civics and DC5R Integras in NZ now, nearly all Jap imports... they fall off the road nd end up being parted out. Forget importing an engine from anywhere else. alternatively, buy yourself a DC5R Integra, Pinch the engine, box and loom, and part the rest out on Trademe.
As for your ultimate goal, be prepared to spend and spend large.
Getting a Honda-powered car down to 700kg is a VERY tough ask... can be done, but be prepared to spend up large. Also it won't be roadable in this state as you'll need to strip it well beyond a road-legal spec to get into this state.
With this weight target, you really want to start with an Early S1, as this is the lightest base. These in stock form are about 700. But then when you bear in mind that you'll be adding about 50kg with the engine swap and ancillaries (it's not just the weight of the engine and box, you'll be adding extra things like oil coolers, heavier driveshafts, heat shielding etc. Also bear in mind you'll need to also go heavier on the brakes etc and larger (heavier) tyres. Also budget some significant weight for a MSNZ cage if you actually want to race it as more than a clubsport car (thanks to our bloomin' stupid non-equivalency laws)
All of this means you'll be looking at stripping a good 70-80kg out of the car, which is just a HUGE task.... it can be done, but it'll take a lot of work. Good luck to you if you decide to go ahead and do it though, it's the sort of project I enjoy seeing
Take a look at my Exige rebuild thread in this forum ( CLICKY) as this gives you some kind of idea of the work involved when taking on a project with these cars. Mine's on a different route, as I'm trying to create an ultimate track car without butchering the original car... but it does give you an idea.
For reference, I'm pretty sure my pile of receipts for doing this adds up to about $35-40k and is still ticking over at an alarming rate, with the end still not really in sight.
The rough goal for mine is 300bhp/tonne, with a target of ~230bhp and a target weight of 750kg wet. Probably won't hit this right away when it's back together but will creep up on it over the next few years.
Edited by Esprit on Thursday 5th November 07:49
cphbc said:
Hi
Thanks for the info re the K20 .
What am I trying to do ? Recently sold my 05 Exige with Toyota NA . Loved the car , but decided I wanted to build a full on track car only.
The Exige was a little expensive to start pulling apart and turning into track only , so looking to Purchase either a Rover Exige or Elise and use this is s the starting point to create the car
Ideally would like to buy a good car with blown engine , but no crash damage. Have come across one in San Francisco, its an Elise S2 with no motor. Ideal , so see what happens
As far as mods go .
K20 engine/ Transmission NA initially , but may look at SC down the line , want to look at what mods are avail that produce reliable power / also will look to add close ratio gears .
ECU In decision something like Hondata or AME
Weight Reduction , If possible would like to the final figure around 700 kg
Full race specs to Suspension- Ohlin / brakes- AP / uprights Nitron
Convert to single centre seat
Hopefully that gives an idea of what I am trying to achieve
Presently just researching the Engine kit and it seems that there are a few cowboys out there , Have been in contact with Sunspeed , but they dont get a rave review in the USA Lotus forum . I noted your comments regarding another guy who was tied up with me previously . Well done alerting everyone to this guy.
Can you recommend a kit to chase up ?
You mentioned Simon Scuffham , he is with Elise/ Honda ? Would he sell a kit , or have I got this wrong ?
Obviously the engine needs to be sorted , do you know where I can purchase new ? You also mentioned Malaysia , any contacts there.
Currently have another car project on the go , so no rush to get started , but would like to start collect parts as they come along .
Completely forget anyone operating out of the States all of them have a deservedly bad reputation! My recommendation is to buy a converted car from the UK. That way the steering wheel is on the right side - although you mention converting to a center seat, then best bet is to try and source an ex motorsport car. They came out of the factory with a center seat (plus roll cage etc). If you want to go racing at some point then I would suggest not bothering with the Honda, the Rover engine can be bought up to Honda power levels now with pretty good reliability as proven in the UK LOTR Elise series (1.8/9L scholar block) http://www.scholarengines.co.uk/EVO2%20block.htm - this will mean less problems finding eligible classes to run in. It will also mean 700kg is achievable since the Rover engine and gearbox are lighter than the Honda. David Skeggs in his Scholar engined Elise was extremely competitive even against SC Honda Elises http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lgi6Wm7NzA&fea... Two things to note the camera car is Skeggs in his Scholar Rover which as you will see is gaining on the car in front, a SC Honda powered S2 (300hp) so Rover engined cars can be quick. Number two shows Honda's can go bang...Thanks for the info re the K20 .
What am I trying to do ? Recently sold my 05 Exige with Toyota NA . Loved the car , but decided I wanted to build a full on track car only.
The Exige was a little expensive to start pulling apart and turning into track only , so looking to Purchase either a Rover Exige or Elise and use this is s the starting point to create the car
Ideally would like to buy a good car with blown engine , but no crash damage. Have come across one in San Francisco, its an Elise S2 with no motor. Ideal , so see what happens
As far as mods go .
K20 engine/ Transmission NA initially , but may look at SC down the line , want to look at what mods are avail that produce reliable power / also will look to add close ratio gears .
ECU In decision something like Hondata or AME
Weight Reduction , If possible would like to the final figure around 700 kg
Full race specs to Suspension- Ohlin / brakes- AP / uprights Nitron
Convert to single centre seat
Hopefully that gives an idea of what I am trying to achieve
Presently just researching the Engine kit and it seems that there are a few cowboys out there , Have been in contact with Sunspeed , but they dont get a rave review in the USA Lotus forum . I noted your comments regarding another guy who was tied up with me previously . Well done alerting everyone to this guy.
Can you recommend a kit to chase up ?
You mentioned Simon Scuffham , he is with Elise/ Honda ? Would he sell a kit , or have I got this wrong ?
Obviously the engine needs to be sorted , do you know where I can purchase new ? You also mentioned Malaysia , any contacts there.
Currently have another car project on the go , so no rush to get started , but would like to start collect parts as they come along .
As far as DIY kits go there are a few in the UK, I'm slightly dubious as to their quality compared to the commercial offerings. Simon Scuffham is a good mate of mine and is the original developer of the most popular commercial installation (Linkup). This is now owned by Eliseparts who you may be familiar with, they have a seperate Honda Elise website http://hondaelise.com/ As to Simon he's managed over the years to ban himself from most forums, extremely knowledgeable but does not suffer fools or people who ask questions when the answer can be obtained with a tiny bit of digging. In real life he's remarkably normal, other than a wardrobe full of rubber, leather and an interesting array of medieval torture instruments...
If you decide to do it yourself it is very easy to end up with a build that will cost more than buying a pre-converted car with all the goodies.
Here's a commercial linkup kit for sale http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am... This would be perfect the seller is a Seloc regular and can be trusted. You're be struggling to replicate this yourself for less money esp. with the weak pound. It's also listed in the Seloc classifieds so you may be able to pick it up a little cheaper. Dean Harper who converted his Elise to Honda power sourced his engine from Malayasia he's overseas on business at the moment, will ask when he returns (remind me at some stage towards the end of Nov).
I considered going down the S/C route myself but realised it would be pointless, the car would be so blindingly fast you would be a class of one and trackdays are no fun if you can't find someone to mix it up with. In addition depending on your driving style it's a lot more fragile than an NA engine (as the previous vid shows and this was not the first this driver had blown up) - remember the Honda is already running a pretty high compression ratio which is not ideal for forced induction. To address some other questions, there is no dry sump kit for the Elise www.clockwisemotion.co.uk do one but it won't fit in the Elise without major mods - water pump has to go and be replaced with an electric pump, which they sell, alternator needs to be replaced with a smaller unit etc.
If you haven't signed up to SELOC yet then do so. There a few interesting threads on people who have given the DIY route a crack, most of the time it has ended in tears.
Motorsport Elise center seat.
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