Double-clutching
Discussion
Hands up who does it all the time?? I heard that you can get 3 times the life out of syncros and clutch plates if you are careful??
I was trying to do it in the daily driver today as practice before doing it in the Esprit. I always blip the throttle on big downshifts anyway so I am half way there
Seems a bit of a pain!
I was trying to do it in the daily driver today as practice before doing it in the Esprit. I always blip the throttle on big downshifts anyway so I am half way there
Seems a bit of a pain!In my daily driver I blip any aggressive downshifts and the Westie has an auto-blipper.
I don't think double-clutching is remotely necessary with a modern-ish clutch (and gearbox). If you're reasonably accurate with your heel'n'toe then double-clutching would be a waste of time and creates an additional 'opportunity risk' of driver error causing significant damage.
All IMHO
I don't think double-clutching is remotely necessary with a modern-ish clutch (and gearbox). If you're reasonably accurate with your heel'n'toe then double-clutching would be a waste of time and creates an additional 'opportunity risk' of driver error causing significant damage.
All IMHO
From my experience its practially impossible to practice in a car with syncros as even if you make a complete mess of it youll still think youve done it perfectly. Meaning when your in a car that actually needs it and you do it the same itll be rather noisy.
Agreed with the others above, totally unnecessary in just about all situations. I dont even both in the Midget which dont have syncro on first...I just match the revs and leave it at that
Agreed with the others above, totally unnecessary in just about all situations. I dont even both in the Midget which dont have syncro on first...I just match the revs and leave it at that
Esprit said:
Double declutching isn't really necessary on modern gearboxes as Graham says. I revmatch in all my cars on downshifts and I occasionally double-declutch if I'm going into first gear while still on the move as that can help. Otherwise it's a little redundant these days.
What he said, though in my old Leone double-declutching was also necessary for 3rd-2nd on cold mornings because the synchros were knackered.I find it keeps the hands and feet quite busy double-declutching into first while chucking it into a hairpin. Now if I had a turbo I'd be able to keep it in 2nd without bogging down...
Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 12th February 20:20
Kylie said:
So a bit of heel toe action and continue blipping away then. 
I got to say I did a bit of heel toe action the other day by mistake, pedals are really close together! Must learn how to do that properly before theres an accident 
First flying lap on track in the Exige I looped it... caught throttle and brake at the same time.... oopsie! :P I got to say I did a bit of heel toe action the other day by mistake, pedals are really close together! Must learn how to do that properly before theres an accident 
Now why would you want to be 'blipping' the throttle on downshifts? I know why its done - so the engine revs are about equal to the clutch plate revs when you re-engage the clutch and you dont get a violent 'jerk' on the driveline.
So the main idea is for slowing down, yes?
Thats what brakes are for. The braking situation that is gained from this 'throttle blipping on downshifting' is only on the back wheels. And if you are braking hard, you dont want to be retarding the rear wheels any quicker than the fronts or you may well have a bad spin.
The throttle blipping would be best used when you are down to a lower gear and want to re-engage a suitable ratio for the slower situation.
Take for instance, Pukekohe. You are flat out down the back straight. You want to slow down to get around the hairpin. Do you change down a gear from your almost maximum speed first or apply the brake?
What I usually do in this situation is press the clutch in and jump on the brakes. Why would I want to tax my brakes having to slow down the engine as well? As weight is then transferred to the front wheels the rears become 'lighter' (for want of a better term). Why then upset your brake balance by retarding them further with the engine braking situation from downshifting?
The 'engine blip' can then be used when you re-engage the appropriate gear for the corner.
I know it sounds cool to be throttle blipping on every application of the footbrake, but really I see it as showmanship.
So the main idea is for slowing down, yes?
Thats what brakes are for. The braking situation that is gained from this 'throttle blipping on downshifting' is only on the back wheels. And if you are braking hard, you dont want to be retarding the rear wheels any quicker than the fronts or you may well have a bad spin.
The throttle blipping would be best used when you are down to a lower gear and want to re-engage a suitable ratio for the slower situation.
Take for instance, Pukekohe. You are flat out down the back straight. You want to slow down to get around the hairpin. Do you change down a gear from your almost maximum speed first or apply the brake?
What I usually do in this situation is press the clutch in and jump on the brakes. Why would I want to tax my brakes having to slow down the engine as well? As weight is then transferred to the front wheels the rears become 'lighter' (for want of a better term). Why then upset your brake balance by retarding them further with the engine braking situation from downshifting?
The 'engine blip' can then be used when you re-engage the appropriate gear for the corner.
I know it sounds cool to be throttle blipping on every application of the footbrake, but really I see it as showmanship.
Agree Bruce, I really only starting driving like this when I got my 89 Turbo, as the second gear in the renault boxes are known to fail if you punish them, so I had to learn to try and baby it the best way I knew how.
And yeah heavy braking bringing the revs right down, I never seen why you have to blip other gears. I only use it for 3 down to 2nd on extreme cases where the power is still on.
An interesting debate all the same.
And yeah heavy braking bringing the revs right down, I never seen why you have to blip other gears. I only use it for 3 down to 2nd on extreme cases where the power is still on.
An interesting debate all the same.
proper heel and toeing is used in a racing/track situation to change down a gear at the same time as braking without the rear wheels locking and/or to stay in the appropriate power band if applicable to the car. This is not easy and takes a lot of practice and correctly spaced pedals.
Matching revs while changing down without braking can make for a smoother change.
Simply blipping the throttle while changing down(or up as many a bogan has done) is purely for showing off.
Matching revs while changing down without braking can make for a smoother change.
Simply blipping the throttle while changing down(or up as many a bogan has done) is purely for showing off.
Sorry Bruce I don't agree with much of that at all. This bit in particular:
First get off the throttle & hit the brakes. Unless the throttle is jammed open or you have a 10 tonne flywheel you don't want the clutch in.
BruceNZ said:
. . . Take for instance, Pukekohe. You are flat out down the back straight. You want to slow down to get around the hairpin. Do you change down a gear from your almost maximum speed first or apply the brake?
What I usually do in this situation is press the clutch in and jump on the brakes. Why would I want to tax my brakes having to slow down the engine as well?
What I usually do in this situation is press the clutch in and jump on the brakes. Why would I want to tax my brakes having to slow down the engine as well?
First get off the throttle & hit the brakes. Unless the throttle is jammed open or you have a 10 tonne flywheel you don't want the clutch in.BruceNZ said:
Now why would you want to be 'blipping' the throttle on downshifts? I know why its done - so the engine revs are about equal to the clutch plate revs when you re-engage the clutch and you dont get a violent 'jerk' on the driveline.
So the main idea is for slowing down, yes?
Thats what brakes are for. The braking situation that is gained from this 'throttle blipping on downshifting' is only on the back wheels. And if you are braking hard, you dont want to be retarding the rear wheels any quicker than the fronts or you may well have a bad spin.
The throttle blipping would be best used when you are down to a lower gear and want to re-engage a suitable ratio for the slower situation.
Take for instance, Pukekohe. You are flat out down the back straight. You want to slow down to get around the hairpin. Do you change down a gear from your almost maximum speed first or apply the brake?
What I usually do in this situation is press the clutch in and jump on the brakes. Why would I want to tax my brakes having to slow down the engine as well? As weight is then transferred to the front wheels the rears become 'lighter' (for want of a better term). Why then upset your brake balance by retarding them further with the engine braking situation from downshifting?
The 'engine blip' can then be used when you re-engage the appropriate gear for the corner.
I know it sounds cool to be throttle blipping on every application of the footbrake, but really I see it as showmanship.
Bruce you have completely missed the point of H&T, one of the main reasons for doing it is to avoid locking the rear brakes under heavy braking.So the main idea is for slowing down, yes?
Thats what brakes are for. The braking situation that is gained from this 'throttle blipping on downshifting' is only on the back wheels. And if you are braking hard, you dont want to be retarding the rear wheels any quicker than the fronts or you may well have a bad spin.
The throttle blipping would be best used when you are down to a lower gear and want to re-engage a suitable ratio for the slower situation.
Take for instance, Pukekohe. You are flat out down the back straight. You want to slow down to get around the hairpin. Do you change down a gear from your almost maximum speed first or apply the brake?
What I usually do in this situation is press the clutch in and jump on the brakes. Why would I want to tax my brakes having to slow down the engine as well? As weight is then transferred to the front wheels the rears become 'lighter' (for want of a better term). Why then upset your brake balance by retarding them further with the engine braking situation from downshifting?
The 'engine blip' can then be used when you re-engage the appropriate gear for the corner.
I know it sounds cool to be throttle blipping on every application of the footbrake, but really I see it as showmanship.
You should ideally do the H&T downshift into the correct gear for the corner as late n the braking as possible to avoid over revving the engine. You definitely should not hold the clutch in during braking, I've not seen anyone do this.
H&T is the first thing we teach in a competition driving school, along with threshhold braking. Those who can't master it tend to struggle with the rest of the course.
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