Fight those tickets!
Discussion
Another day - another court hearing.
Or at least it should have been - yet again the police gave up. From my experience over the last couple of years, if you are prepared to put some effort into fighting a ticket and show you aren't intimidated by pieces of paper with things like "final notice of fine" and "make your fine go away - pay" plastered all over them - there is an almost risk free way to proceed. The very worst that can happen is having to pay some (modest) extra court costs - and the chances are it won't even get that far.
On this occasion a friend was given a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt (as a passenger). Writing letters pointing out that she was proved a waste of time - so "a hearing was requested".
The first court hearing is only for a plea, so 'not guilty' means a date for the hearing proper is set, a month or two in the future.
This means the Police have plenty of time to disclose all the evidence they intend to use in court - and as a minimum ALL of this must be provided at least a week before the hearing so you can get legal advice etc etc.
Anyway, true to form the evidence was delivered at 3pm the day before the hearing - absolutely useless. The defendant actually got it at 7 when she got in from work. From 8.30 onwards the phone kept ringing - the police, to announce they were now dropping the whole thing.
Just to make sure her husband and I attended the court, and the police explained that the officer in charge now considered that a warning was more appropriate. Yeah, right. Funny that the officer had also phoned the defendant about a month ago, and tried to persuade her to pay (as it would make his life much easier).
And no, this sort of thing isn't a one off. The police dropped a couple of speed camera cases against me recently through "lack of evidence" (despite very clear pictures). As I am slightly more vindictave than the defendant above, I stood up and asked for costs. The police persuaded the magistrates that I couldn't get any. So I am off to the High Court with the costs claim as an appeal - even if I get nothing there is no cost to me.
Be warned, fighting these things takes a certain amount of time and effort. If you value your time highly pay fines even when you aren't guilty - it's a lot cheaper. (technically this is committing perjury but the Police aren't concerned!)
Or at least it should have been - yet again the police gave up. From my experience over the last couple of years, if you are prepared to put some effort into fighting a ticket and show you aren't intimidated by pieces of paper with things like "final notice of fine" and "make your fine go away - pay" plastered all over them - there is an almost risk free way to proceed. The very worst that can happen is having to pay some (modest) extra court costs - and the chances are it won't even get that far.
On this occasion a friend was given a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt (as a passenger). Writing letters pointing out that she was proved a waste of time - so "a hearing was requested".
The first court hearing is only for a plea, so 'not guilty' means a date for the hearing proper is set, a month or two in the future.
This means the Police have plenty of time to disclose all the evidence they intend to use in court - and as a minimum ALL of this must be provided at least a week before the hearing so you can get legal advice etc etc.
Anyway, true to form the evidence was delivered at 3pm the day before the hearing - absolutely useless. The defendant actually got it at 7 when she got in from work. From 8.30 onwards the phone kept ringing - the police, to announce they were now dropping the whole thing.
Just to make sure her husband and I attended the court, and the police explained that the officer in charge now considered that a warning was more appropriate. Yeah, right. Funny that the officer had also phoned the defendant about a month ago, and tried to persuade her to pay (as it would make his life much easier).
And no, this sort of thing isn't a one off. The police dropped a couple of speed camera cases against me recently through "lack of evidence" (despite very clear pictures). As I am slightly more vindictave than the defendant above, I stood up and asked for costs. The police persuaded the magistrates that I couldn't get any. So I am off to the High Court with the costs claim as an appeal - even if I get nothing there is no cost to me.
Be warned, fighting these things takes a certain amount of time and effort. If you value your time highly pay fines even when you aren't guilty - it's a lot cheaper. (technically this is committing perjury but the Police aren't concerned!)
Hi bud. Not intending on coming across hostile but just curious. Why would your friend not wish to wear a seat belt? I cannot understand why people don't wear belts? It's simple, it's safe. It's funny being a dad now as my daughter says Daddy... put your seat-belt on! as I have a bad habit of clicking it as we start rolling. If I didn't wear it I thought what example does it set for her (Gracie).
I'm all for fighting false tickets as I've had them too but if I was pulled up and wasn't wearing my belt and was fined because it was illegal then I'd pay up. I couldn't afford the time or the aggravation unless the ticket was unjustified. There are better things to pursue in life.
Just my 2c
I'm all for fighting false tickets as I've had them too but if I was pulled up and wasn't wearing my belt and was fined because it was illegal then I'd pay up. I couldn't afford the time or the aggravation unless the ticket was unjustified. There are better things to pursue in life.
Just my 2c
Edited by Kiwi Carguy on Sunday 27th January 01:32
Hopefully, when your house gets broken into or your child gets assulted in the street, the police won't be too busy to attend because they are doing paperwork or attending court to prosecute a trivial case against a pedantic prick who knows he's guilty but gets his jollies from wasting the taxpayers money.
I've no problem paying a fine when I get caught in a fair cop... but rest assured I will be fighting my licence-plate fine in court if it comes to that... which reminds me... just received my "final notice to pay the fine, of which I won't be doing of course since I've already written in to contest the fine. I'll reply to the final notice also including a copy of my original latter... I expect that to fall on deaf ears too..... I ain't paying as that's an admission of guilt.
Esprit said:
I've no problem paying a fine when I get caught in a fair cop... but rest assured I will be fighting my licence-plate fine in court if it comes to that... which reminds me... just received my "final notice to pay the fine, of which I won't be doing of course since I've already written in to contest the fine. I'll reply to the final notice also including a copy of my original latter... I expect that to fall on deaf ears too..... I ain't paying as that's an admission of guilt.
I forgot to say to you George that when I had my 911 I had plates made out of adhesive vinyl. It was reflective and a direct copy of the orginal plate, font and all. You couldn't have told the differance between them. I had the Porsche logo and NZ flag all for the cost of $70. I will personally run a sticker plate on the front of the Saker. I see no way out of running one to be honest. Kiwi Carguy said:
I forgot to say to you George that when I had my 911 I had plates made out of adhesive vinyl. It was reflective and a direct copy of the orginal plate, font and all. You couldn't have told the differance between them. I had the Porsche logo and NZ flag all for the cost of $70. I will personally run a sticker plate on the front of the Saker. I see no way out of running one to be honest.
Front of a porker or a Saker is a little larger than the front of an Exige 
My only option is to get a bigger stick-on and run it down over the splitter as well, but then it won't all be vertical and will be somewhat distorted at the bottom, which will still probably attract the ire of the cops.Personally I think the Exige is a loud, brash, antisocial vehicle, even when you're driving it in a perfectly sedate manner.... cops seem to just love pulling it over and having a go at you in it, I guess such attitudes I'm going to have to get used to copping.
Esprit said:
Kiwi Carguy said:
I forgot to say to you George that when I had my 911 I had plates made out of adhesive vinyl. It was reflective and a direct copy of the orginal plate, font and all. You couldn't have told the differance between them. I had the Porsche logo and NZ flag all for the cost of $70. I will personally run a sticker plate on the front of the Saker. I see no way out of running one to be honest.
Front of a porker or a Saker is a little larger than the front of an Exige My only option is to get a bigger stick-on and run it down over the splitter as well, but then it won't all be vertical and will be somewhat distorted at the bottom, which will still probably attract the ire of the cops.Personally I think the Exige is a loud, brash, antisocial vehicle, even when you're driving it in a perfectly sedate manner.... cops seem to just love pulling it over and having a go at you in it, I guess such attitudes I'm going to have to get used to copping.
Kiwi Carguy said:
Nope not much room out the front. Do they all mount them here?
And that's an S2, as pukka production model, which actually has a plinth on which to mount a plate... the front on them is also larger and higher than the S1, which makes fitting a plate slightly easier.... although see in the pic, the plate still blocks off maybe 20-30% of the cooling air intake... on the S1 it's more like anywhere between 40 and 80% depending on where you mount the plate. On the S1 if you mount it lower down, it opens up the radiator air but then restricts airflow to the under-floor aperture for the oil cooler.... with rather fiery consequences. Given that this is the ONLY engine cooling aperture (radiator is fully ducted through that intake) as well as being a critical aerodynamic element (the air channeled upwards through the radiator accounts for about 100kg of negative lift at 100mph) means that it's simply not safe to mount a plate there... hence my argument and my request for special dispensation not to be required to run a standard-issue plate on the front of my car... I'm happy to run as big a sick-on replica as I can fit (what I'm doing now) but there's no way I'm gonna run a proper plate on it, it just won't go.
Edited by Esprit on Sunday 27th January 09:42
Sorry, should have made it clear in the original post that she was wearing a seatbelt, the policeman appears to have thought she wasn't wearing one from 400 metres away. Despite that fact it would have been cheaper to pay the $150 (it cost her more in stress than that), she wasn't prepared to admit to something she hadn't done.
"Hopefully, when your house gets broken into or your child gets assulted in the street, the police won't be too busy to attend because they are doing paperwork or attending court to prosecute a trivial case against a pedantic prick who knows he's guilty but gets his jollies from wasting the taxpayers money."
What are you trying to say? I don't see why anyone should pay a ticket for an offence they haven't committed, in the same way I don't think the police should write out so many tickets in the first place - and then suffer no consequences when they get it wrong. The police cannot ticket their way to safer roads, the system and arrogance of the Police Infringement Bureau are making matters worse.
Esprit - did you "request a hearing"? and then the standard garbage about being just too late? I must have seen halve a dozen letters almost identical - "you requested a hearing but your letter took 5/6/7 days to get to us so you will now have to pay the fine." The law is extremely biased against motorists, the police don't help by their bending of the rules.
"Hopefully, when your house gets broken into or your child gets assulted in the street, the police won't be too busy to attend because they are doing paperwork or attending court to prosecute a trivial case against a pedantic prick who knows he's guilty but gets his jollies from wasting the taxpayers money."
What are you trying to say? I don't see why anyone should pay a ticket for an offence they haven't committed, in the same way I don't think the police should write out so many tickets in the first place - and then suffer no consequences when they get it wrong. The police cannot ticket their way to safer roads, the system and arrogance of the Police Infringement Bureau are making matters worse.
Esprit - did you "request a hearing"? and then the standard garbage about being just too late? I must have seen halve a dozen letters almost identical - "you requested a hearing but your letter took 5/6/7 days to get to us so you will now have to pay the fine." The law is extremely biased against motorists, the police don't help by their bending of the rules.
jaybkay said:
The law is extremely biased against motorists, the police don't help by their bending of the rules.
When I wrote in requesting radar calibration docs etc after a speeding ticket it was similar, I had to write 2 or 3 times before they responded, and then by the time they sent the material out it didn't arrive until after the due date, so I had to pay the extra $30 for late payment (all calibration etc was in order so I didn't contest it past that). In my experience most of the cops on the street are pretty good, its the ones behind desks in Wellington that are the a$$holes.Edited by GravelBen on Monday 28th January 00:26
jaybkay said:
Sorry, should have made it clear in the original post that she was wearing a seatbelt, the policeman appears to have thought she wasn't wearing one from 400 metres away. Despite that fact it would have been cheaper to pay the $150 (it cost her more in stress than that), she wasn't prepared to admit to something she hadn't done.
What an extraordinarily convenient recollection.Do you seriously expect us to believe that an officer gave your friend a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt when "the policeman appears to have thought she wasn't wearing one from 400 metres away."
Normally the officer sees this head-on from only 5m away and then is 400m away by the time a safe u-turn is completed and the offender is pursued. By the time they are stopped the seatbelt is on.
Is this what happened or are you sticking with the revisionist version of your story?
jaybkay said:
Kiwi XTR2 said:
"Hopefully, when your house gets broken into or your child gets assulted in the street, the police won't be too busy to attend because they are doing paperwork or attending court to prosecute a trivial case against a pedantic prick who knows he's guilty but gets his jollies from wasting the taxpayers money."
What are you trying to say? I don't see why anyone should pay a ticket for an offence they haven't committed, in the same way I don't think the police should write out so many tickets in the first place - and then suffer no consequences when they get it wrong. The police cannot ticket their way to safer roads, the system and arrogance of the Police Infringement Bureau are making matters worse.jaybkay said:
The police dropped a couple of speed camera cases against me recently through "lack of evidence" (despite very clear pictures).
I wait in breathless anticipation for your explanation of how you were actually innocent of speeding in each of these instances.jaybkay said:
Esprit - did you "request a hearing"? and then the standard garbage about being just too late? I must have seen halve a dozen letters almost identical - "you requested a hearing but your letter took 5/6/7 days to get to us so you will now have to pay the fine." The law is extremely biased against motorists, the police don't help by their bending of the rules.
No hearing requested... there was nothing on my infringement notice that stated I could, merely an address to write to if I wished to contest the circumstances surrounding my ticket.Will be sending a reply to the reminder tomorrow... if it ends up in court, so be it.
mark387mw said:
...and all I've got is a $40 parking infringment for parking my car outside my house that happened to have a for sale sign in it. The alledged offence is that I parked for purpose of sale whereas I parked to allow access for a delivery! People in uniforms...
Which Council? I can have a look at the Bylaw for you.Do you have a delivery docket?
The info is here http://www.hastingsdc.govt.nz/news/2004/sell_vehic...
The council say I should have known about the bylaw and having only been in the area 6 weeks is no excuse. My business rates are over $15000 and they issue me a $40 ticket for something they never told me about
I can PM the ticket tomorrow, insignificant as it seems but...authorities...tossers!!
The council say I should have known about the bylaw and having only been in the area 6 weeks is no excuse. My business rates are over $15000 and they issue me a $40 ticket for something they never told me about
I can PM the ticket tomorrow, insignificant as it seems but...authorities...tossers!!
Edited by mark387mw on Monday 28th January 10:15
Kiwi XTR2 said:
Is this what happened or are you sticking with the revisionist version of your story?
I think you'll find he does state that she was wearing a belt in his initial post. I also think you're making some assumptions about the situation - the police make mistakes just like the rest of us. If they did make a mistake he has every right to question it. I think a valid point is made - many of us are too scared to challenge such things because the police rely on intimidation to get their job done. I'm not slagging the police off though, there are good ones and bad ones and they do their best given their budget limitations and orders from above. George - is it possible to get special dispensation for not having a standard number plate on your car? I've not heard of that before - is it a certification thing?
jamieheasman said:
George - is it possible to get special dispensation for not having a standard number plate on your car? I've not heard of that before - is it a certification thing?
I'm about to find out I guess.I just figure that since Motorbikes are specifically excluded from the requirement to have a front plate on (presumably) safety and practicality grounds, and trade-plated vehicles are excluded (presumably) on practicality grounds, then it seems silly that there should be a blanket regulation for ALL cars to have them. It stands to reason that in some extreme cases, especially with small/specialist cars that a number plate wouldn't fit on the front. Have you ever seen a Ferrari Enzo wearing any country's regulation front plate?
I fully admit that I broke the law as it's written, and in that respect I'm happy to pay the fine if my legal challenge is not successful. However, I want to question the law and see if there's any allowances possible for those of us who are unable to safely comply with it.
I find it funny that the cop thought I was taking the piss with a plate that small, reckoned I'd made it that small to cheat speed cameras..... ironic that I've had many photos taken of the car on trackdays with little consumer point-and-shoot jobbies, with me flying past the camera at up to ~200km/h, and not once has the plate been anything but fully legible.
Do you know if the police in NZ have those auto-plate reading computers in their cars? In the UK they have a computer running all the time and it reads plates and looks them up in the DVLA database / police database to see if they are stolen or don't have tax/mot etc. When it finds a vehicle displaying an offence it alerts the driver so he/she can go after them and nick 'em. I could imagine this being a reason they wouldn't want to set a precedent for motorcars.
jamieheasman said:
Do you know if the police in NZ have those auto-plate reading computers in their cars? In the UK they have a computer running all the time and it reads plates and looks them up in the DVLA database / police database to see if they are stolen or don't have tax/mot etc. When it finds a vehicle displaying an offence it alerts the driver so he/she can go after them and nick 'em. I could imagine this being a reason they wouldn't want to set a precedent for motorcars.
No, they don't here.... and FWIW, these only work when you're FOLLOWING a vehicle, don't believe they work for oncoming traffic, meaning that the only requirement should be a fully legit rear-plate.In the end, Motorcyclists don't have to run a front plate and I'd wager that motorcyclists as a group are probably THE most law-breaking group on our roads (not saying they're the most dangerous, just that they probably break traffic laws such as speeding and lane-discipline etiquette more than most other sectors of motorists... purely because they have machinery that's so much more capable than your average car). I think it's just one of those laws where the "all cars must display front and rear plates" requirement was drafted without consideration to special cases.
For example, you can't take a dog into a restaurant, but if you're blind, you're allowed your guide dog..... reasonable exceptions should be made.
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