There's nothing quite right out there.....

[Ffirg 005]

I need some help... my LS6 Cerbera project is stalled while I wait for clarity on whether it can be built as a road legal scratchbuilt or not (latest on that is after exhausting all other channels I've been waiting 6 weeks for a response to my letter to Harry Duynhoven pointing out the inconsistencies in the current LVVTA rules). But this isn't about that - the point is I'm realistically at least 12 months from having the Cerb on the road, probably longer. So before I completely forget how to drive something quicker than an aging Pug 405 I've decided I need something tasty to fill the gap. The problem is what....

Here's the brief:
- V8 or Straight 6, 300bhp/tonne+
- Rear wheel drive
- Built for speed, comfort optional
- Manual
- Coupe or convertible with some form of built-in weather protection and room for an overnight bag or two.
- Can be driven to a track day, and (for peg-in-the-ground purposes) be at least as quick around as a non-turbo'd 911.
- Not a build project - I've already got one of those.
- Budget: $80k in NZ, GBP25k if importing (but less would be good)

Some of the candidates you might think of (and I've thought of a lot):

TVR: not really into the pre-'90s models, and anything more recent falls foul of the frontal impact import regs. A 2006 car may be allowed in due to low production volumes that year, but not to be had for less than GBP40k.

Porsche: 911 NAs too slow, turbos too expensive. Older turbo's within budget are really classics and I guess it would be expensive to regularly thrash one around a track. 968 clubsport with a few tweaks maybe...?

BMW: CSL is the most appealing option within budget (well, almost), but lots more depreciation to come, and just don't look 'special'

Audi: RS's are fast and no fuss, but like a BMW, nothing I'd get out of bed early to wax and polish.

AC Cobra: Strong appeal... but no roof so wouldn't get as much daily use from it as I'd like. GT40 replica maybe?

Alfa: Twice bitten already....

Aston Martin: An AMV8 in track trim could be a lot of fun, but anything affordable will be too old and slow.

Caterham/Fraser/etc: Loads of fun on track, but no roof and I really need that V8 feeling...

Corvette: Not unless it's a C6

Ferrari: Not on my budget.

Jap: There's some rockets out there for sure, but they'd all fail the 'get out of bed early to wax' test.

Lambo: One day....

Lotus: Exige and certain late model Esprits appeal (like Kylies latest!), but would I need to move real fast to get one in before 2008?

Vauxhall: VXR/VX220 turbo. Would be fast and fun and a lot of bang per buck, but lacking the 'x' factor.

Noble: Fast, but not pretty IMO.

Marcos: Older models were thrashed with the ugly stick. TSO has almost acceptable looks, but too new/expensive.

Radical: SR3/4 an option, but a bit too raw for the road. Likewise XTR2.

Ultima: Would love to build one, but don't need another project. It doesn't seem right to buy one someone else has built, even if I could find one close to the budget.

What would you do....?

[v8sag]

Have I got the car for you Don,will just sneak in your price bracket too.

[RobDickinson]

uh where did my post go?

Something at least as fast as a NA 911 is.... a NA 911? 996 CS, 350bhp, lighter and quicker than a M3 CSL. Holds its value practical and fun.

Or a v8 holden/ford, or a good late model RX7.

Edited by RobDickinson on Monday 10th September 04:30

[Ffirg 005]

v8sag said:

Have I got the car for you Don,will just sneak in your price bracket too.

Did I forget to mention that all locally sourced TVRs are over priced

[Ffirg 005]

RobDickinson said:

Something at least as fast as a NA 911 is.... a NA 911? 996 CS, 350bhp, lighter and quicker than a M3 CSL. Holds its value practical and fun.

I admit I get lost in all the 911 variants, but isn't the standard 996 more like 300hp? The CSL I was on a track with once was eating everything for lunch - 911s and TVRs included - but I've no idea what tyres and tweaks it had. Maybe I should give a 996 more thought.... would a late 90s one hold its value?

RobDickinson said:

Or a v8 holden/ford, or a good late model RX7.

Holdens and Fords wouldn't cut it for me I'm afraid - as Mr Bugatti (I think) once said, it's not about how fast it goes, but how it goes fast. As for RX7s, just when I'm thinking I could go for a late model RX7 - and on paper, I really do like them - I try to imagine myself in one, but can't. It's too Japanese, and I'm too old.

[Kylie]

S2 Exige with all goodies perhaps? I dont want to be predictable and say buy an Esprit like you should!! The yellow one on Trademe may be already bought, worth a try its a good one too. Although hes not budging on 85K

[GravelBen]

Ffirg 005 said:

RobDickinson said:

Something at least as fast as a NA 911 is.... a NA 911? 996 CS, 350bhp, lighter and quicker than a M3 CSL. Holds its value practical and fun.

I admit I get lost in all the 911 variants, but isn't the standard 996 more like 300hp? The CSL I was on a track with once was eating everything for lunch - 911s and TVRs included - but I've no idea what tyres and tweaks it had.

A standard 996 C2/C4 is 300 bhp or 320 for the later ones iirc, and a CSL is apparently not far behind a GT3 (360/380/~400 bhp) round a track. A GT3 could fit your criteria well except I don't think I've seen one under $150k. A significant part of the CSL's track performance is due to rather sticky tyres from what I've heard which aren't up to much in the wet and don't often get hot enough to be really good on the road either, which is probably something worth keeping in mind.

[GravelBen]

I see you've thought of a 968 CS, could also modify a 944 S2 to perform just as well (mainly cosmetic differences between the S2 and regular 968, CS advantages could be got by modifying from a cheaper car), with a supercharger kit from ninemeister (in the UK) or someone similar if the standard 210-240? bhp isn't enough. Superb handling cars by all accounts though.

Could also consider a 944 turbo, easier to get power out of the the NA cars.


A Nissan 200SX or Skyline could be uprated to serious power for much less than your budget and handle pretty well (though some Skylines are quite heavy), but as you've said you're not really into the Jap stuff. STi or Evo are quick and very rapid on demanding backroads but maybe too much like a normal car for what you want? And Jap again, though apparently much more involving to drive than Audi RS equivalents.


Honda S2000 probably a bit slow for you, maybe an NSX?

Edited by GravelBen on Monday 10th September 06:08

[Ffirg 005]

GravelBen said:

I see you've thought of a 968 CS, could also modify a 944 S2 to perform just as well (mainly cosmetic differences between the S2 and regular 968, CS advantages could be got by modifying from a cheaper car), with a supercharger kit from ninemeister (in the UK) or someone similar if the standard 210-240? bhp isn't enough. Superb handling cars by all accounts though.

Could also consider a 944 turbo, easier to get power out of the the NA cars.

Good thoughts... and could be a good option to build a potent track weapon, but I don't want to divert too much away from the Cerbera so would have to fit the bill without much extra modification on my part. Harder to explain, but something I had with the TVRs and want to have again is the sense of occasion in just getting behind the wheel and starting it up. Not sure where that feeling comes from but I'm pretty sure I wouldn't get it from something modified to perform well above its station, even if it is a Porsche. I guess it comes from a combined assault on the senses of power, design, purity of purpose, leather, rarity, exhaust note... and something else.

Strangely, Dean's Londa had it for me.... now where did that end up?

[GravelBen]

Ffirg 005 said:

Strangely, Dean's Londa had it for me.... now where did that end up?

I would have had that car like a shot if I'd been a position to buy it. Maybe one will come up again in a few more years once my finances are less restricted.

[Ffirg 005]

When I look at a Skyline I just see a Jap box with a crappy interior and more BHP than it looks like it should have. Doesn't fit the "...how it goes fast matters" criteria. And even if the 4WDs weren't Japanese I wouldn't be too keen, rear wheel drive is more fun

S2000 too slow, and too much wringing of its neck required to get performance out of it. NSX isn't that fast either but probably the only supercar worthy of the name ever to come out of Japan. They're a modern classic though and as far as I can see you're paying the high ticket price for that, not its performance capability.

Kylie - Elise is no doubt loads of fun and fits the bill in many ways, but I left it out because I know I'd import an Exige/Esprit before I paid what is being asked for an S2 Elise here.

[GravelBen]

A few wild-card trademe suggestions, some more sensible than others.

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Audi...
(maybe too sensible?)

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Specialis...
(But how can a 7.0 V8 only make 350 bhp?)

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Specialis...
(Too slow? much lighter than a 996)

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Specialis...
(Fast but might not feel special enough - bit of a 'bitsa')

http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Specialis...
(Very fast, heaps of character, just meets your budget. Probably my pick. Never really going to be an everyday car but I get the impression you're not looking for one anyway.)

[Kiwi Carguy]

I'm not a honda fan but I'd seriously suggest considering this NSX. I am a huge fan of the GTR but there is just something about the NSX that screams supercar that the GTR doesn't. I think the styling is great but they let it down with the Accord interior http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Hond...

The BMW M coupe.

Escort Cosworth although not RWD. Sure they cheaper in the U.K but I don't think you can bring them in anymore.

I know this car and the owner. I think he's spent in excess of $90K! Road legal but maybe not your cup of tea http://www.trademe.co.nz/Trade-Me-Motors/Cars/Pors...

Bruce's Saker Sprint is possibly for sale at IIRC around $40K although it has no roof. Does 1:13's at Manfield tho and would be easy to move on when yor ready. It is WOF and REG.

I'm a big fan of the Porsches and I doubt you would be dissapointed with a 993 manual. They are hard to find and easy to sell. Here is the only 6 speed I am aware of although it is a targa. http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/Listing.aspx?id=11...

That's all I can think about at the moment...

[RobDickinson]

A 996 carrera sport is about 350bhp as standard, I'm sure it'd give the heavier CSL a run for its money.

[Ffirg 005]

Thanks Ben, but...

RS2 - That one's been up a long time, genuine classic Audi but overpriced and lacking the x factor for me.

Cobra - Has the x factor in spades... even though its an authentic engine choice, that big block must take some hauling around corners. In the right combo and build quality a Cobra is a definite possibility....

Porsche racers 1 & 2 - Awesome on the track, but not currently road registered so would have stripped out interiors. What I liked about Dean's Londa was that he'd kept it looking nearly standard, and usable as a daily driver, despite the extreme performance mods.

Sierra - as above, too much of a stripped out race car.

thanks for looking though

[Esprit]

I agree heavily with your original instincts of the VXR220/T, both cracking cars and they really are fantastic lookers (unless they're parked next to an Elise/Exige, but that rarely happens) and they're a lot more forgiving than the Lotuses. The VXR would have the on-track pace to easily beat a CSL and would keep a GT3 in sight.

You could copy me and get an S1 Exige, but really it's a bit much of a weekend toy... they're VERY fragile, will cook you from the inside out and have no boot. Finding a good one, buying it and getting it here and on the road by the end of the year is probably now an impossibility time-wise.

JUST sneaking into your budget though would be my pick: An early S2 Exige-S (the 220bhp supercharged model). Substantially quicker than the standard S2 Exige (which would JUST sneak into yuor budget maybe if you bought local, and easily within iv you bought Ex-UK). I'd suggest looking at a Cup240, but this is a bit more expensive, and IMHO there's little the 240 offers that you can't do as an upgrade later to the S if you get really bitten by the bug. Fully driveable, still with a factory warranty, unmodded reliability and actually pretty well built.... good for touring with the good lady wife, and able to keep GT3s in sight around a track (pretty much identical pace to a VXR220, perhaps even a smidge quicker)

This one within spitting distance of your bidget at 26k UKP:



If you want to go bonkers, you'll find that a Honda-converted S2 Elise will fit your bill and be as quick as anything I've listed.... for a bit more (and if you can find one) you can bring in a supercharged version of the same, and join the other two that will soon be here. Then you'll have something that will take a GT3's pants down and smack its arse any day of the week.

Edited by Esprit on Monday 10th September 10:37

[Kylie]

That kitted out S2 its hot...

Edited by Kylie on Monday 10th September 10:18

[Ffirg 005]

James - that NSX does look tasty, has proper pedigree and at $50k is showig as close to reserve.... Some NSX research needed perhaps.

If I went for a Saker it would have to be the GT like yours, not just for practicality but looks better too IMO. Mind you, at the right price and just for a year or two of fun.... hmmm....

Can't get on with the styling of the M coupe...

I test drove an immaculate standard 993 (C2 I think) some years back and frankly found it a bit bland - very competent in all respects, but not enough 'go' to excite and the interior looks like it belongs in a Golf. I was really disappointed because I wanted (and expected) to like it so much. Fabulous cars and loved by many I know, but not for me unless it's got a turbo bolted on.

Rob - Sorry, didn't catch the significance of the 'CS'. I don't see any for sale on TM, would they go for much more than a standard one?

[Esprit]

Oh and for the record, I think you're BONKERS forgoing the Noble... I'd have one in an instant

Having said that, I don't think they comply any more... even the two that are here already I'd not be showing to anyone at the LTNZ.

[Esprit]

Ffirg 005 said:

James - that NSX does look tasty, has proper pedigree and at $50k is showig as close to reserve.... Some NSX research needed perhaps.

NSX wouldn't be a bad bet... maybe not as quick as some of the others, but it's not going to depreciate any, theyv'e got a cult following, they're proper rare, do ok on a track but do the "GT" thing as good as a 993 Carrera would.