NZ Murder Capital of the world?
Discussion
Given the huge leap in the number of highly public homicides in NZ in the last few weeks, I thought I'd crunch some numbers.
The Daily Telegraph says that over the last few years, the number of homicides in Britain has averaged 737 per year. This is for a population of about 59 million people.
Now, the Police stats show that for the year ending 2005 we had 110 homicides, for a population of around 4.1 million.
A little maths will show that New Zealand has a murder rate per head of population 215% that of Great Britain. Now we all agree that Great Britain isn't exactly a model of all that's good and holy so what the HELL are we doing wrong in New Zealand?!?!?!
It's interesting that a lot of ex-pat brits who move out here seem to mention after living here a while that the crime rate really astounds them, of which Homicides must be a large contributer.
Is anyone else as alarmed as I am over this? Is my maths wrong? Have I missed something here?
The Daily Telegraph says that over the last few years, the number of homicides in Britain has averaged 737 per year. This is for a population of about 59 million people.
Now, the Police stats show that for the year ending 2005 we had 110 homicides, for a population of around 4.1 million.
A little maths will show that New Zealand has a murder rate per head of population 215% that of Great Britain. Now we all agree that Great Britain isn't exactly a model of all that's good and holy so what the HELL are we doing wrong in New Zealand?!?!?!
It's interesting that a lot of ex-pat brits who move out here seem to mention after living here a while that the crime rate really astounds them, of which Homicides must be a large contributer.
Is anyone else as alarmed as I am over this? Is my maths wrong? Have I missed something here?
Having spent the last 8 years living in Holland I felt completely safe wandering around the streets of The Hague compared to NZ - but my naivety may have had something to do with that 
Reading the local rag in Pukekohe can be depressing at times, with the number of assaults committed by the local Hoddie wearing toe rags.
But I can't say I'm alarmed by the murder rate, after all 2 times bugger all is still bugger all... Plenty of other things have a statistically higher chance of killing me.
Generally it's scum killing scum, which is ok in my book...
Those new toe links of yours George have a better chance of being the end of you if you didn’t tighten bolt C up properly
Reading the local rag in Pukekohe can be depressing at times, with the number of assaults committed by the local Hoddie wearing toe rags.
But I can't say I'm alarmed by the murder rate, after all 2 times bugger all is still bugger all... Plenty of other things have a statistically higher chance of killing me.
Generally it's scum killing scum, which is ok in my book...
Those new toe links of yours George have a better chance of being the end of you if you didn’t tighten bolt C up properly
ian... that's valid and you're right, statistically you're still pretty safe... but this is probably an indicator of society in general. I've been the victim (several times) of other crimes in the past 5 years, all of which ended up in the Police basically telling them not to bother wasting their time and ACTIVELY encouraging me not to even bother recording it (keeps the stats looking good and keeps the recorded crime rate down and the resoltion rates up doesn't it).... these things DO directly affect us, and the homicide stats are probably a good ultimate indicator of the crime landscape in general.
As for the toelinks, I'd say they're pretty solid... the only thing that'll kill me in the Lotus is the highly irrational, dysfunctional organic control unit that sits behind the steering wheel
As for the toelinks, I'd say they're pretty solid... the only thing that'll kill me in the Lotus is the highly irrational, dysfunctional organic control unit that sits behind the steering wheel
In Holland, I had my car radio stolen twice, 3 expensive bikes nicked (which is why most Cloggies ride old dungers) and punched out one truck driver who cut me up and called my bluff
In the previous five years when I lived in a war zone - Yugoslavia, I got shelled and shot at on a number of occasions but never murdered
In NZ prior and up to now - nothing, touch wood...
In the previous five years when I lived in a war zone - Yugoslavia, I got shelled and shot at on a number of occasions but never murdered
In NZ prior and up to now - nothing, touch wood...
as a whole, its proven that the curve of crime grows steeper as the population of people per sqkm increases, therefore nz should be low...er
There is also a distortion by what figures are available to be read.
I never read too much into the stats as you only have to look at the most massaged figures in the world(USA)and realise what is possible.
Its not all doom and gloom here, but its suprising you can commit double murder, refuse to talk and get away with it.Bizzare.
There is also a distortion by what figures are available to be read.
I never read too much into the stats as you only have to look at the most massaged figures in the world(USA)and realise what is possible.
Its not all doom and gloom here, but its suprising you can commit double murder, refuse to talk and get away with it.Bizzare.
While you're reading stats, how many young'uns meet an untimely demise in NZ versus the rest of the world? I'm sure its a media beat up to a certain extent but I don't think I've heard much news about children being killed here in Australia. Maybe they do on the east coast, I'm not sure...
But if you take out certain the statistics associated with local elements of the population (i.e. Just analysed the European settlers) I wonder what your statistics would look like? One statistic I found says:
Comparison taken 6 years ago between New Zealand and England/Wales: www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/2002/intl-comparisons-crime/section-7.html
Now if you don’t mind I have to go into hiding before the PC brigade comes, I’ll just set fire to the bridges as I go.
TVNZ said:
Maori make up just 14% of the population but are responsible for more than 65% of offending.
In Auckland, Maori make up 30% of offenders, yet only 9% of the population.
In Auckland, Maori make up 30% of offenders, yet only 9% of the population.
Gazette said:
In 1998, Maori were 3.3 times more likely to be apprehended for a criminal offence than non-Maori. The rate was 3.6 times higher for prosecutions and 4.2 times higher for convictions.
A Maori woman in 1999 was 10.5 times more likely to be serving a sentence of imprisonment than a non-Maori woman, while a Maori man was 7.6 times more likely than a non-Maori man to be serving a sentence. In the same year, Maori women made up 59 per cent of the female prison population and Maori men made up 51 per cent of the prison population. Maori youth were over-represented in crime statistics.
I’ll let you draw your own conclusions. A Maori woman in 1999 was 10.5 times more likely to be serving a sentence of imprisonment than a non-Maori woman, while a Maori man was 7.6 times more likely than a non-Maori man to be serving a sentence. In the same year, Maori women made up 59 per cent of the female prison population and Maori men made up 51 per cent of the prison population. Maori youth were over-represented in crime statistics.
Comparison taken 6 years ago between New Zealand and England/Wales: www.justice.govt.nz/pubs/reports/2002/intl-comparisons-crime/section-7.html
Now if you don’t mind I have to go into hiding before the PC brigade comes, I’ll just set fire to the bridges as I go.
Crime is terrible in the UK. Drive by shootings, rape, torture, gang murder, paedophilia, kidnap, honour killings, armed robbery, muggings, car jacking, drug barons - and all in Nottingham this year in the UK before we left. It's more of a problem with 59 million than it is with 4 million. Believe me, after 6pm at night you wouldn't walk the streets of Nottingham without being approached by some homeless person with a patch on their coat (for dugs access) and a dog (they give homeless owners of dogs extra benefits) coming at you in a VERY intimidating way and demanding money; stared out by some hoodies or asked 'what the f**k are you looking at' when you were just trying to go on your way.....
And that's a typical UK city. I kind of think alot of these big multi-cultural cities are the same these days (ie they *don't work*) but ask yourself, would you be shitting yourself in the same way walking around the centre of Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch at 6.00pm in the evening?
And believe me I know a thing or two about Nottingham, having ended up in A&E for a brain scan in January 2005 after being attacked IN my car DRIVING HOME on a TUESDAY night at 8.45PM.
Absolute shit hole the UK. Believe me, you're better off here.
And that's a typical UK city. I kind of think alot of these big multi-cultural cities are the same these days (ie they *don't work*) but ask yourself, would you be shitting yourself in the same way walking around the centre of Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch at 6.00pm in the evening?
And believe me I know a thing or two about Nottingham, having ended up in A&E for a brain scan in January 2005 after being attacked IN my car DRIVING HOME on a TUESDAY night at 8.45PM.
Absolute shit hole the UK. Believe me, you're better off here.
I haven't spent the much time in Chch or Welly, and none at all in Auckland so I cant really comment on those, but for comparison I feel safe walking around Dunedin by myself at 2am any night of the week - there are some areas its more advisable to avoid, but mostly its fine as long as you have a bit of common sense (like dont try and barge through the middle of a group of drunk teenagers). Used to help run a BBQ on friday nights (10pm-1am ish) down the main street and saw the odd fight there, but in general the aggro ones are just mouths and no action.
Admittedly it is much smaller than the others (120,000 or so from memory), and very much a student city which means much drunk & disorderly / couches burning in the streets / broken glass everywhere, but the serious crime rate doesn't seem too bad down here.
Admittedly it is much smaller than the others (120,000 or so from memory), and very much a student city which means much drunk & disorderly / couches burning in the streets / broken glass everywhere, but the serious crime rate doesn't seem too bad down here.
The difference is in NZ murder is still big news and shocks most people.
Try London where most murders hardly even make the papers. A guy was killed outside my local pub a couple of weeks ago. I did not know. It did not even make the local community paper, just appearing on a local website appealing for witnesses, and I live in a very nice part of London. It seems we only hear these days about supposed racist crime which the media love to milk.
Believe me NZ is still a very safe place compared to most of the western world.
Try London where most murders hardly even make the papers. A guy was killed outside my local pub a couple of weeks ago. I did not know. It did not even make the local community paper, just appearing on a local website appealing for witnesses, and I live in a very nice part of London. It seems we only hear these days about supposed racist crime which the media love to milk.
Believe me NZ is still a very safe place compared to most of the western world.
Richard Gee said:
Crime is terrible in the UK. Drive by shootings, rape, torture, gang murder, paedophilia, kidnap, honour killings, armed robbery, muggings, car jacking, drug barons - and all in Nottingham this year in the UK before we left. It's more of a problem with 59 million than it is with 4 million. Believe me, after 6pm at night you wouldn't walk the streets of Nottingham without being approached by some homeless person with a patch on their coat (for dugs access) and a dog (they give homeless owners of dogs extra benefits) coming at you in a VERY intimidating way and demanding money; stared out by some hoodies or asked 'what the f**k are you looking at' when you were just trying to go on your way.....
And that's a typical UK city. I kind of think alot of these big multi-cultural cities are the same these days (ie they *don't work*) but ask yourself, would you be shitting yourself in the same way walking around the centre of Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch at 6.00pm in the evening?
And believe me I know a thing or two about Nottingham, having ended up in A&E for a brain scan in January 2005 after being attacked IN my car DRIVING HOME on a TUESDAY night at 8.45PM.
Absolute shit hole the UK. Believe me, you're better off here.
And that's a typical UK city. I kind of think alot of these big multi-cultural cities are the same these days (ie they *don't work*) but ask yourself, would you be shitting yourself in the same way walking around the centre of Auckland, Wellington or Christchurch at 6.00pm in the evening?
And believe me I know a thing or two about Nottingham, having ended up in A&E for a brain scan in January 2005 after being attacked IN my car DRIVING HOME on a TUESDAY night at 8.45PM.
Absolute shit hole the UK. Believe me, you're better off here.
Fair call Richard, and I wasn't trying to say that GB is any better, I KNOW it's a sh1thole on the whole, especially for crime, but I was just astounded to find that our murder rate (adjusted for poopulation) is higher than theirs... which shocked me.
I'd wait before making comments like you're better off here though... I fear that our cities are no better than the ones back home, it's a frustration that'll grow on you the longer you're here.
I've had car thefts/break-ins and home invasions 9 times in the past 6 or 7 years, all over NZ. Twice in Hastings, twice in Palmerston North, twice in Christchurch and thrice in Auckland as well as having my nose broken/face smashed in Christchurch.
I'm not the wealthiest guy and I can't generally afford to live in the best areas but I certainly don't allow myself to live in slums and I certainly don't go looking for trouble. All of the property thefts I've suffered have been in a mixture of "rich" areas and "poor" areas, and the assault I suffered was a completely random attack by a bunch of youths when I was at the beach with friends (apparently I looked at them or something).
Every time I've reported these crimes I've been ACTIVELY discouraged by the Police from making a formal complaint, in the extent of the assault I wasn't ALLOWED to make a complaint and was politely suggested that I might like to sort out my own little problems and that it was probably my own fault that they attacked me in the first place, I must have provoked them (This was while I was standing there with my face swollen and venting most of the contents of my circulatory system over the floor).
So yeah, I guess I've suffered my fair share of NZ crime, and the incompetent system we have to deal with it. I was thinking that this was just me and I'd been unlucky, but more and more people are beginning to suffer these days and all of a sudden my experiences aren't so isolated after all... which is a very sad indictment on NZ indeed. Like I said, NZ is so close to perfect and the things that are wrong with it are so EASY to fix, yet they let them grow like a cancer.
Oh and for the record, on the 3 occasions that I've had the fortune of actually seeing the people committing crimes against me, they've all been caucasian. This is a NZ problem, not a racial one.
From what I can see it's the same the world over. As we as a society get more and more PC the police get more and more restrained in what they can do. The emphasis seems to be on making money rather than making citizens safe in their beds/cars/streets. It's a joke when you think about it but the police, nation health services, the fire brigade - all of them seem to have to try to make money or spend most of their time cost-cutting.
So what happens? People lose respect for the police and become cynical. The loss of respect filters down to the children and before you know it nobody cares about anyone else. No one has any respect for anything or anyone.
GB is no more a sh*thole than NZ or Aussie or any other country in the 'developed' world. There are plenty of places I'd happily walk around all night in the UK, likewise NZ. In the same respect I wouldn't walk around at midnight in parts of Otara, Mangere, Manurewa etc. Mind you I'd rather do it in those neighbourhoods than parts of New York or townships in SA! It's all a question of common sense.
NZ is fairly unique in that it is being held to ransom by a minority and has been for some time. I think what shocks most people that come here to live (especially if they've been here as a tourist) is the massive contrast between NZ's Clean-Green image and the reality of somewhere that is gradually being run into the ground by a bunch of do-gooders.
Just my humble opinion of course.
I was in Saudi Arabia for two years and the crime level in Riyadh seemed non-existent. Sure, they had their fair share of murders etc but they didn't mess about - it was down to chop-chop square. Now there was a country you could leave your door unlocked in and your car open with your wallet on the dash.
So what happens? People lose respect for the police and become cynical. The loss of respect filters down to the children and before you know it nobody cares about anyone else. No one has any respect for anything or anyone.
GB is no more a sh*thole than NZ or Aussie or any other country in the 'developed' world. There are plenty of places I'd happily walk around all night in the UK, likewise NZ. In the same respect I wouldn't walk around at midnight in parts of Otara, Mangere, Manurewa etc. Mind you I'd rather do it in those neighbourhoods than parts of New York or townships in SA! It's all a question of common sense.
NZ is fairly unique in that it is being held to ransom by a minority and has been for some time. I think what shocks most people that come here to live (especially if they've been here as a tourist) is the massive contrast between NZ's Clean-Green image and the reality of somewhere that is gradually being run into the ground by a bunch of do-gooders.
Just my humble opinion of course.
I was in Saudi Arabia for two years and the crime level in Riyadh seemed non-existent. Sure, they had their fair share of murders etc but they didn't mess about - it was down to chop-chop square. Now there was a country you could leave your door unlocked in and your car open with your wallet on the dash.
jamieheasman said:
I was in Saudi Arabia for two years and the crime level in Riyadh seemed non-existent. Sure, they had their fair share of murders etc but they didn't mess about - it was down to chop-chop square. Now there was a country you could leave your door unlocked in and your car open with your wallet on the dash.
I've heard Turkey is similiar from people who lived there - the police there know practically everything about everybody, and have the power to act on it. Much less personal freedom than here, but they flipside of it is that criminals either think better of it or are punished quite severely (hard to steal again when you're missing a hand or 2
).Kiwi XTR2 said:
GravelBen said:
I haven't spent the much time in Chch or Welly, and none at all in Auckland so I cant really comment on those, but for comparison I feel safe walking around Dunedin by myself at 2am any night of the week . . .
Is that how you avoid the 6:00am 'Walk of Shame' ?
Actually I tend to avoid that by spending more of my money on petrol instead of excess quantities of ...other hydrocarbon-based beverages... I find I actually have more fun that way too. Esprit/Gravel ben - I do agree with you. That's the general problem with the Westernised world though isn't it? - do gooders/minorities gradually ruining them in one way or another - there are examples in seemingly every string of society - eg Castle Combe racing circuit in the UK being 'silenced' and losing three of its big five days in the year because the lefty council ignored a petition of 14,000 who wanted the noisy days in favour of 12 who didn't...
I guess my point is that given some basic problems with the Western style society - and I accept that I know very little indeed about NZ so far - at least be reasonably happy that you are in one with fewer people and less overall numbers of crimes. I do think the UK's problems are exacerbated by simply having too many people rattling round in a small place....vis a vis cities in general.
It's one of those conversations that can go on forever, but my take on it as a 40 year old is that Western society has become paranoid about anything where it's ideology of freedom, wealth and quality of life could be criticised, hence it seemingly always backs down in the face of any minority that has a genuine moan or a contrived one. Add in Governments run by hypocrites who are by definition egotists and you are left with bad situations badly managed. As regards dealing with those situations, I think the UK is worst of all, but there you go. I gave up voting years ago because they basically ALL lie and don't deliver on the promises they make. I've long thought Western countries should be managed like businesses with hard edged entrepreneurs running them and not politicians. I know the counter argument is a Bush/Halliburton/Iraq/Oil type scenario but that is down to the quality of the 'manager' - in the case of the US a retard. I have a hunch the US would do much better with someone like Gates (Microsoft jokes aside) at the helm.
Excuse my ramblings
I guess my point is that given some basic problems with the Western style society - and I accept that I know very little indeed about NZ so far - at least be reasonably happy that you are in one with fewer people and less overall numbers of crimes. I do think the UK's problems are exacerbated by simply having too many people rattling round in a small place....vis a vis cities in general.
It's one of those conversations that can go on forever, but my take on it as a 40 year old is that Western society has become paranoid about anything where it's ideology of freedom, wealth and quality of life could be criticised, hence it seemingly always backs down in the face of any minority that has a genuine moan or a contrived one. Add in Governments run by hypocrites who are by definition egotists and you are left with bad situations badly managed. As regards dealing with those situations, I think the UK is worst of all, but there you go. I gave up voting years ago because they basically ALL lie and don't deliver on the promises they make. I've long thought Western countries should be managed like businesses with hard edged entrepreneurs running them and not politicians. I know the counter argument is a Bush/Halliburton/Iraq/Oil type scenario but that is down to the quality of the 'manager' - in the case of the US a retard. I have a hunch the US would do much better with someone like Gates (Microsoft jokes aside) at the helm.
Excuse my ramblings
I agree with you in general there, I think some of the problems also come a trend towards socialist governments which think the state knows best and therefore see no reason to listen to the people. The people involved with politics are nearly always minority/extremist in some of their views and with their own axe to grind though (like Helen Clark with her neo-feminist issues, pushing through stuff like prostitution reform which passed by a 1-vote majority when one MP abstained, despite public surveys showing a clear opposition to it.)
What I would see as a problem with your suggestion about countries being run as a business is that governing bodies would probably still remain self-auditing, which is an open invitation to rampant corruption. I've already noticed (in my whole 21 years, and probably only the 5 I've been noticing politics for) a degradation of public services like schools, hospitals etc as they try to change from providing a service to the public to making a profit from providing a service the public need.
By far the biggest problem I see in the govt is blatant stupidity though, some of the things the fools have claimed over the years are:
-lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18 will reduce teenage binge-drinking and alcohol problems
-legalising prostitution will reduce its effects on communities, reduce sex crimes and give greater freedom to women
-microchipping registered dogs will stop unregistered dogs attacking people when treated badly (or trained to) by their owners
-encouraging people to mindlessly obey numerical limits will improve the safety of their driving
-taking away accurate assessment of childrens' education will make them learn better because they feel better about themselves (because they get an "achieved" grade which they think means they got 100%, but really they only got 51%)
sorry, I'll try to get off my
and stop 
now.
In case you can't tell, I don't like our current government very much
What I would see as a problem with your suggestion about countries being run as a business is that governing bodies would probably still remain self-auditing, which is an open invitation to rampant corruption. I've already noticed (in my whole 21 years, and probably only the 5 I've been noticing politics for) a degradation of public services like schools, hospitals etc as they try to change from providing a service to the public to making a profit from providing a service the public need.
By far the biggest problem I see in the govt is blatant stupidity though, some of the things the fools have claimed over the years are:
-lowering the drinking age from 21 to 18 will reduce teenage binge-drinking and alcohol problems
-legalising prostitution will reduce its effects on communities, reduce sex crimes and give greater freedom to women
-microchipping registered dogs will stop unregistered dogs attacking people when treated badly (or trained to) by their owners
-encouraging people to mindlessly obey numerical limits will improve the safety of their driving
-taking away accurate assessment of childrens' education will make them learn better because they feel better about themselves (because they get an "achieved" grade which they think means they got 100%, but really they only got 51%)
sorry, I'll try to get off my
and stop now. In case you can't tell, I don't like our current government very much
Interestingly (or maybe not) I have a world atlas on my pc from 1999. It lists crime rates per 100,000 for some basic categories (rape/murder/theft) and allows back to back comparisions. Comparing UK to NZ, NZ is indeed higher in all categories, and the rape figure was waaaaay higher, something like 600%.
I have to say though, I feel much safer walking around Wellington than I did walking around the small English town in I lived in before coming here.
I have to say though, I feel much safer walking around Wellington than I did walking around the small English town in I lived in before coming here.
Western democracy is a relatively new fanged device. In the same way you shake your head today at what went on a few hundred years ago, our descendants will be doing the same in a similar time frame.
The Romans had a crack at it and it ended in tears. I have no doubt western civilization will follow suit at some point - but instead of the Vandals sacking the place it'll be, no oil, Global warming, WW3 or more likely something we cannot forsee.
Going off topic for a moment there are various theories as to why our skies are not full of Alien Starships buzzing around, one plausible one is most societies tend to advance faster technologically than culturally and at some point - pretty much about where we are they go bang...
The fact is that a good chunk of the worlds population lives in abject poverty unable to bask in mans technological magnificence which speaks volumes on the direction we’re heading…
But anyway the problem with socialist governments such as ours is simple. They prey on mankind’s innate laziness. We live in a benefit society where a sizable chunk of the population lives of one benefit or another. The more beneficiaries the higher the tax rate, the higher the tax rate the more people requiring benefits. When it comes to voting time and the choice of benefit or no benefit well it’s not a tough decision really. I doubt that Michael Savage envisaged the current state of affairs when he rolled it out in the 1930’s. Which in my opinion has created a culture within a culture of poverty and benefit dependency which leads us back to the causes of many of our current problems with crime.
hmm that ran on for a bit longer than I was intending
The Romans had a crack at it and it ended in tears. I have no doubt western civilization will follow suit at some point - but instead of the Vandals sacking the place it'll be, no oil, Global warming, WW3 or more likely something we cannot forsee.
Going off topic for a moment there are various theories as to why our skies are not full of Alien Starships buzzing around, one plausible one is most societies tend to advance faster technologically than culturally and at some point - pretty much about where we are they go bang...
The fact is that a good chunk of the worlds population lives in abject poverty unable to bask in mans technological magnificence which speaks volumes on the direction we’re heading…
But anyway the problem with socialist governments such as ours is simple. They prey on mankind’s innate laziness. We live in a benefit society where a sizable chunk of the population lives of one benefit or another. The more beneficiaries the higher the tax rate, the higher the tax rate the more people requiring benefits. When it comes to voting time and the choice of benefit or no benefit well it’s not a tough decision really. I doubt that Michael Savage envisaged the current state of affairs when he rolled it out in the 1930’s. Which in my opinion has created a culture within a culture of poverty and benefit dependency which leads us back to the causes of many of our current problems with crime.
hmm that ran on for a bit longer than I was intending
Edited by iwilson on Tuesday 18th July 10:30
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