Quota, What Quota?
Discussion
NZ Herald
Sunday July 2, 2006 - By David Fisher
Speeding ticket scandal: the internal police memo
A highway police unit was sent out with orders to "get our ticket count up" in what makes a mockery of Government assurances that motorists are not targeted in a quota system.
A June 21 job sheet for police officers in the Central North Island area tells officers to set up road blocks so they can target high volumes of traffic to finish "top group" in their district before the end of the financial year.
Although police have argued for years that motorists were not subject to a quota, the memo was last night seized upon by opposition politicians to attack the Government's credibility.
Superintendent Mark Lammas, the boss of the unnamed officer who wrote the memo, said there was no quota but that officers did have "productivity targets" to meet. "We do measure productivity by group and by individual. I have guidelines to productivity."
National's law and order spokesman Simon Power said: "The Government have been telling the public targets do not exist, that this is not a revenue-gathering exercise - but that is obviously not the case."
Act leader Rodney Hide said it made the police look like "just another branch of Inland Revenue". "This just proves what [Prime Minister] Helen Clark and the police have strenuously denied for years - that highway patrols are about government revenue gathering, rather than safer roads."
Police Minister Annette King told the Herald on Sunday she would seek assurances from the Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad, tomorrow that police were not operating a quota system. "I'm not happy with it if they are giving tickets to satisfy some internal quota."
It is the second case in a month of a memo urging police to issue tickets. In Marlborough, the acting area commander told officers they had to issue two tickets a shift.
Mrs King said the two instances were the first times she had ever heard of anything resembling a quota system. "I don't think it's endemic." She said each policing district was responsible for the way it targeted crime and traffic enforcement. "There is not a government instruction or policy. There is no quota system from the Government. I don't believe we need a quota system. The measure for me is a reduction in deaths, injuries and accidents."
She also attempted to put to rest accusations that police engage in "revenue collecting". "I've got no interest in the revenue. It's peanuts next to the cost of death, suffering and rehabilitation. It's peanuts."
In 2004 more than 395,000 speeding tickets were issued by officers, up from 137,000 in 2000. Police collected $46.5 million from these fines last year.
Superintendent Lammas said the "productivity" guidelines were based on knowing statistically how many people were likely to break the law and the expectation of what an efficient police officer should be achieving. "I would expect they would issue one ticket an hour." He conceded the statistics comparing groups of officers "may well" be available to police staff. But he said it should not be a source of competition. "We're about outcomes and how we get good road safety outcomes."
Mr Lammas said the officer who wrote the "tasking sheet" would be spoken to. He said the choice of words was "enthusiastic, probably well-meaning but largely ignorant of road policing", and the instruction was "daft".
He also said he intended hunting out the individual who had leaked the "tasking sheet". He said "every organisation hates to have someone... who does that".
Automobile Association general manager Mike Noon said the AA had always accepted assurances from police that there were no quotas. The AA was supportive of police road policing efforts, including targeting problems on the roads. "We are not supportive of ticketing for the sake of ticketing. If that was the case we would be concerned."
Quota, what quota?
October 17, 2005
Northland police community safety officer Bridget Rickard:
"We do not have a quota, we do however have a job to do and that is to protect life and property. If that means writing out tickets, so be it."
January 22, 2005
Inspector John Kelly, of police national headquarters, in response to claims that a trebling of speeding ticket numbers was "revenue gathering":
"It's frustrating. This has got absolutely nothing to do with revenue gathering."
July 23, 2003
Police Minister George Hawkins, in response to a question from Act MP Muriel Newman as to whether police have a national policy on traffic ticket quotas:
"No. However, police do set performance standards to enforce the law."
May 17, 2003
Inspector John Kelly, acting national policing manager, after the goal for the number of speeding tickets to be issued by police rises:
"Issuing more tickets is about strong enforcement, which is proven to save lives on the road. The money collected is a by-product of what we're doing."
March 10, 2003
Tasman road policing manager Inspector Hugh Flower:
"The fixation on speed and allegations of revenue gathering are erroneous and unhelpful when all the police are doing is endeavouring to reduce the road toll and associated road trauma that has far-reaching consequences for the community each time a traffic crash occurs."
July 26, 2005
Nelson Bays area commander Inspector Brian McGurk:
"Our enforcement strategies and tactics have absolutely nothing to do with so-called revenue gathering, but have everything to do with preventing deaths and injuries."
Sunday July 2, 2006 - By David Fisher
Speeding ticket scandal: the internal police memo
A highway police unit was sent out with orders to "get our ticket count up" in what makes a mockery of Government assurances that motorists are not targeted in a quota system.
A June 21 job sheet for police officers in the Central North Island area tells officers to set up road blocks so they can target high volumes of traffic to finish "top group" in their district before the end of the financial year.
Although police have argued for years that motorists were not subject to a quota, the memo was last night seized upon by opposition politicians to attack the Government's credibility.
Superintendent Mark Lammas, the boss of the unnamed officer who wrote the memo, said there was no quota but that officers did have "productivity targets" to meet. "We do measure productivity by group and by individual. I have guidelines to productivity."
National's law and order spokesman Simon Power said: "The Government have been telling the public targets do not exist, that this is not a revenue-gathering exercise - but that is obviously not the case."
Act leader Rodney Hide said it made the police look like "just another branch of Inland Revenue". "This just proves what [Prime Minister] Helen Clark and the police have strenuously denied for years - that highway patrols are about government revenue gathering, rather than safer roads."
Police Minister Annette King told the Herald on Sunday she would seek assurances from the Commissioner of Police, Howard Broad, tomorrow that police were not operating a quota system. "I'm not happy with it if they are giving tickets to satisfy some internal quota."
It is the second case in a month of a memo urging police to issue tickets. In Marlborough, the acting area commander told officers they had to issue two tickets a shift.
Mrs King said the two instances were the first times she had ever heard of anything resembling a quota system. "I don't think it's endemic." She said each policing district was responsible for the way it targeted crime and traffic enforcement. "There is not a government instruction or policy. There is no quota system from the Government. I don't believe we need a quota system. The measure for me is a reduction in deaths, injuries and accidents."
She also attempted to put to rest accusations that police engage in "revenue collecting". "I've got no interest in the revenue. It's peanuts next to the cost of death, suffering and rehabilitation. It's peanuts."
In 2004 more than 395,000 speeding tickets were issued by officers, up from 137,000 in 2000. Police collected $46.5 million from these fines last year.
Superintendent Lammas said the "productivity" guidelines were based on knowing statistically how many people were likely to break the law and the expectation of what an efficient police officer should be achieving. "I would expect they would issue one ticket an hour." He conceded the statistics comparing groups of officers "may well" be available to police staff. But he said it should not be a source of competition. "We're about outcomes and how we get good road safety outcomes."
Mr Lammas said the officer who wrote the "tasking sheet" would be spoken to. He said the choice of words was "enthusiastic, probably well-meaning but largely ignorant of road policing", and the instruction was "daft".
He also said he intended hunting out the individual who had leaked the "tasking sheet". He said "every organisation hates to have someone... who does that".
Automobile Association general manager Mike Noon said the AA had always accepted assurances from police that there were no quotas. The AA was supportive of police road policing efforts, including targeting problems on the roads. "We are not supportive of ticketing for the sake of ticketing. If that was the case we would be concerned."
Quota, what quota?
October 17, 2005
Northland police community safety officer Bridget Rickard:
"We do not have a quota, we do however have a job to do and that is to protect life and property. If that means writing out tickets, so be it."
January 22, 2005
Inspector John Kelly, of police national headquarters, in response to claims that a trebling of speeding ticket numbers was "revenue gathering":
"It's frustrating. This has got absolutely nothing to do with revenue gathering."
July 23, 2003
Police Minister George Hawkins, in response to a question from Act MP Muriel Newman as to whether police have a national policy on traffic ticket quotas:
"No. However, police do set performance standards to enforce the law."
May 17, 2003
Inspector John Kelly, acting national policing manager, after the goal for the number of speeding tickets to be issued by police rises:
"Issuing more tickets is about strong enforcement, which is proven to save lives on the road. The money collected is a by-product of what we're doing."
March 10, 2003
Tasman road policing manager Inspector Hugh Flower:
"The fixation on speed and allegations of revenue gathering are erroneous and unhelpful when all the police are doing is endeavouring to reduce the road toll and associated road trauma that has far-reaching consequences for the community each time a traffic crash occurs."
July 26, 2005
Nelson Bays area commander Inspector Brian McGurk:
"Our enforcement strategies and tactics have absolutely nothing to do with so-called revenue gathering, but have everything to do with preventing deaths and injuries."
I can't even pretend to be surprised that this is the case. I do, however, prefer real police giving out tickets to scameras. Getting caught by a policeman with a face is far more likely to make you behave than a computer generated letter in the mail.
In relation to this, the PH article recently about how the police injury statistics are incorrect versus NHS injury/death statistics was very interesting- I wonder if it is the case in NZ. NZ isn't as far down the road as the UK but you can definitely see the nanny-state approach in both nations.
Here in Aussie people generally obey the posted speed limit but the road toll is far greater per capita than in NZ. At least they tell you on the news at night where the speed cameras are going to be- they pretend its a safety thing and on the whole people don't speed. Problem is, people are just retarded and no amount of speed traps will ever fix that.
In relation to this, the PH article recently about how the police injury statistics are incorrect versus NHS injury/death statistics was very interesting- I wonder if it is the case in NZ. NZ isn't as far down the road as the UK but you can definitely see the nanny-state approach in both nations.
Here in Aussie people generally obey the posted speed limit but the road toll is far greater per capita than in NZ. At least they tell you on the news at night where the speed cameras are going to be- they pretend its a safety thing and on the whole people don't speed. Problem is, people are just retarded and no amount of speed traps will ever fix that.
Nope... no surprise... it's funny because a few cops swear blind that there is a quota but most deny it... I guess it's police policy that their public line for "public interest" reasons is that quotas don't exist.
They're arguing that there aren't quotas but there are "personal performance criteria..." same thing, different word.
Really annoying because if they spent more time on enforcing the speed limits where they NEED it (suburbia, near schools, old folks rest homes and dangerous black spots) then the road toll would likely fall further.
They're arguing that there aren't quotas but there are "personal performance criteria..." same thing, different word.
Really annoying because if they spent more time on enforcing the speed limits where they NEED it (suburbia, near schools, old folks rest homes and dangerous black spots) then the road toll would likely fall further.
Some wise fulla once said:
"There should be only one road offence - dangerous driving."
Anyone remeber who? cos I can't. quite a bit of truth in it though, the way the law works now is that things which once would have been considered simply as factors of the dangerous driving (ie not matching speed to conditions, not stopping etc) have become the target in themselves, with the result that people forget that the main point was originally safety, not just rules for the sake of rules. Unfortunately that way of thinking carried through to its conclusion is where our road policing is headed (if not there already) - a blind, legalistic, 101kph is illegal and therefore must be punished regardless of whether it was safe, attitude.
Or to put it more bluntly, "Sieg Heil"
"There should be only one road offence - dangerous driving."
Anyone remeber who? cos I can't. quite a bit of truth in it though, the way the law works now is that things which once would have been considered simply as factors of the dangerous driving (ie not matching speed to conditions, not stopping etc) have become the target in themselves, with the result that people forget that the main point was originally safety, not just rules for the sake of rules. Unfortunately that way of thinking carried through to its conclusion is where our road policing is headed (if not there already) - a blind, legalistic, 101kph is illegal and therefore must be punished regardless of whether it was safe, attitude.
Or to put it more bluntly, "Sieg Heil"
Wednesdays Herald had Mark Lammas the Central district Commander, he of quotas what quotas, wittering on about how terrible white collar speeders are. In the midst of the rant he was quoted as saying "If you look at some of the things thay have been saying, they are absolutely pahtetic . Like it was a straight piece of road and I know it's safe to do 120kph" "if we accept that why don't we just have a rule that as long as you are driving safely, police won't take any enforcement action? Simple" "And then we wonder why so many people are dying on the road"
I am quoting word for word The lunatics have taken over the asylum. As I read it he's saying we ticket you if you are speeding even if it's not dangerous..............ah right. ARRUUGH!
So no speed limits on the Isle of Man, Northern Territory in Aus and on some auto bahn sections. 120kph or higher limits in numerous USA states and lots of countries.
Oh but they are all different to little old NZ. BOLLOCKS!!
Why on the straightest best designed, if a tad boring stretch of motorway, from Albany to Orewa do I nearly aways see a camera van or a police car? Because it's about revenue collection and ease of meeting quotas!!
The other thing that rotates me is they lump the total speeding tickets into one number. I'd like to know what % of the take is doing a few kph over our idiotic 50kph limit. After all the idiots at LTSA have an ad showing 60kph is safe. Hell according to the lying tripe 90kph crashes are a walk in the park.
I better go and have a lie down and a nice cup of tea.........
Nah I'll work on Bad Baby, make some vroom noise, wipers and indicators left to do.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
I am quoting word for word The lunatics have taken over the asylum. As I read it he's saying we ticket you if you are speeding even if it's not dangerous..............ah right. ARRUUGH!
So no speed limits on the Isle of Man, Northern Territory in Aus and on some auto bahn sections. 120kph or higher limits in numerous USA states and lots of countries.
Oh but they are all different to little old NZ. BOLLOCKS!!
Why on the straightest best designed, if a tad boring stretch of motorway, from Albany to Orewa do I nearly aways see a camera van or a police car? Because it's about revenue collection and ease of meeting quotas!!
The other thing that rotates me is they lump the total speeding tickets into one number. I'd like to know what % of the take is doing a few kph over our idiotic 50kph limit. After all the idiots at LTSA have an ad showing 60kph is safe. Hell according to the lying tripe 90kph crashes are a walk in the park.
I better go and have a lie down and a nice cup of tea.........
Nah I'll work on Bad Baby, make some vroom noise, wipers and indicators left to do.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
marksteamnz said:
Why on the straightest best designed, if a tad boring stretch of motorway, from Albany to Orewa do I nearly aways see a camera van or a police car? Because it's about revenue collection and ease of meeting quotas!!
Because on the night after ALPURT B1 (the section you're talking about) openned they were doing a discreet speed survey with lasers from one of the hilltops to see what signage or traffic calming / side friction might be required.
Transit NZ Regional Planning Manager said:
"Most people were doing about 95 - 105 kph with a few in the 110 - 125 kph range. At about 11:30pm we clocked one car at 227 kph !!!"
It's also quite unbelievable how many single car accidents occur on that stretch.
I've got no idea what kind of special talent it takes to fall off that road.Here we go again...
www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3737016a10,00.html
Memo links police pay to ticket numbers
www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3737016a10,00.html
Memo links police pay to ticket numbers
Quote
Because on the night after ALPURT B1 (the section you're talking about) openned they were doing a discreet speed survey with lasers from one of the hilltops to see what signage or traffic calming / side friction might be required.
Transit NZ Regional Planning Manager said:
"Most people were doing about 95 - 105 kph with a few in the 110 - 125 kph range. At about 11:30pm we clocked one car at 227 kph !!!"
It's also quite unbelievable how many single car accidents occur on that stretch. I've got no idea what kind of special talent it takes to fall off that road.
End Quote
Just curious how does the "ALPURT B1" (Strange name!) section compare on fatals per 10,000 vehicles to other "black spots" or does anyone know where to get such information?
The question is inpsired by my memory of yelling at some traffic nimrod of the TV news a few years ago who was saying the Bombay to Huntly stretch was the most dangerous in the Waikato as there were so many accidents. THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF CARS ON IT YOU CRETIN. No one ever quotes comparable rates so it's all a bit of smoke and mirrors.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
Because on the night after ALPURT B1 (the section you're talking about) openned they were doing a discreet speed survey with lasers from one of the hilltops to see what signage or traffic calming / side friction might be required.
Transit NZ Regional Planning Manager said:
"Most people were doing about 95 - 105 kph with a few in the 110 - 125 kph range. At about 11:30pm we clocked one car at 227 kph !!!"
It's also quite unbelievable how many single car accidents occur on that stretch. I've got no idea what kind of special talent it takes to fall off that road.
End Quote
Just curious how does the "ALPURT B1" (Strange name!) section compare on fatals per 10,000 vehicles to other "black spots" or does anyone know where to get such information?
The question is inpsired by my memory of yelling at some traffic nimrod of the TV news a few years ago who was saying the Bombay to Huntly stretch was the most dangerous in the Waikato as there were so many accidents. THERE IS ALSO A LOT OF CARS ON IT YOU CRETIN. No one ever quotes comparable rates so it's all a bit of smoke and mirrors.
Cheers
Mark Stacey
Edited by marksteamnz on Wednesday 19th July 09:19
lol you couldnt make it up:
Tickets 'first priority' in 3rd police memo
www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3738413a10,00.html
"Police in the Marlborough district were last month instructed their "first priority" was to issue a minimum of two traffic tickets each shift.
The June 6 memo, written by acting Area Commander Tony Sampson warned: "Failure to comply with this directive will be considered a performance issue. "
And :
The Marlborough memo advised staff that Operation Vanquish, targeting dishonesty and drug offending, had been cancelled, and Operation Life, targeting traffic offending, "is now the primary focus" until the end of the financial year on June 30.
Tickets 'first priority' in 3rd police memo
www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3738413a10,00.html
"Police in the Marlborough district were last month instructed their "first priority" was to issue a minimum of two traffic tickets each shift.
The June 6 memo, written by acting Area Commander Tony Sampson warned: "Failure to comply with this directive will be considered a performance issue. "
And :
The Marlborough memo advised staff that Operation Vanquish, targeting dishonesty and drug offending, had been cancelled, and Operation Life, targeting traffic offending, "is now the primary focus" until the end of the financial year on June 30.
Esprit said:
Unbefcukinglievable..... it's a comedy of errors... the Police are lying to us, the Govt are now flat out lying to us (about ANOTHER thing) and what will happen? People will still vote Labour. Brilliant 
The joys of a Welfare State:
"Any government proposing to rob Peter to pay Paul, can always count on Paul for his support."
Kiwi XTR2 said:
Esprit said:
Unbefcukinglievable..... it's a comedy of errors... the Police are lying to us, the Govt are now flat out lying to us (about ANOTHER thing) and what will happen? People will still vote Labour. Brilliant
The joys of a Welfare State:
"Any government proposing to rob Peter to pay Paul, can always count on Paul for his support."
EXACTLY... GRR... who's for my idea of forcibly annexing the South Island as an independent state? I'm sure we can find enough disgruntled Brit Commandos to overpower the NZ army (all 4 of them).
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