Ultima GTR - compliance in NZ under LVVTA
Discussion
Got some very good info from Tony @ LVVTA re importing an Ultima GTR.
He said the path of least resistance is a kit and the things that would need to be addressed/complied are:
Steering column collapsability, the type of door retention system used, speedo calibration, lighting equipment and swept area of windscreen from wipers. All of these I have to confirm with the factory against LVVTA/LTSA regulations.
Tony seems to think chassic, brakes, suspension etc will all be fine.
So, now just need to work out the finances and how much it'll cost to build. Anyone know a good builder as I'm crap at that type of thing? I've been thinking Ohlsen Development as Paul Ohlsen also has a license to build genuine Cobras and Daytonas as his dad was on the original design crew with Carrol Shelby.
He said the path of least resistance is a kit and the things that would need to be addressed/complied are:
Steering column collapsability, the type of door retention system used, speedo calibration, lighting equipment and swept area of windscreen from wipers. All of these I have to confirm with the factory against LVVTA/LTSA regulations.
Tony seems to think chassic, brakes, suspension etc will all be fine.
So, now just need to work out the finances and how much it'll cost to build. Anyone know a good builder as I'm crap at that type of thing? I've been thinking Ohlsen Development as Paul Ohlsen also has a license to build genuine Cobras and Daytonas as his dad was on the original design crew with Carrol Shelby.
Just spoke to Neil Fraser and he is confident we can get a fully built car in as long as the factory supplies a welding certificate and photos of the seat belt anchorages. Then it's just down to having the usual requirements (side intrusion beams or an FIA cage), high stop light, certified marr-resistant plastic windows if they're not glass, spoiler can't be wider than the car, 4-point 3-inch harnesses + lap and diagonal belts, and burst-proof door locks.
darren said:
So, now just need to work out the finances and how much it'll cost to build. Anyone know a good builder as I'm crap at that type of thing? I've been thinking Ohlsen Development as Paul Ohlsen also has a license to build genuine Cobras and Daytonas as his dad was on the original design crew with Carrol Shelby.
You could try Andy Culpin - Builder of the well known F40 silloutte, does all sorts of hotrod, conversions, kits. Kevin MacLeod Chief Engineer of Supercars Ltd - scratch built a Porsche Lemans + other amazing supercar prototypes underway!! Yes and I have seen it all - wow, only cause they did some work on my car
You can email me off line if you want numbers to call them. >> Edited by kylie on Friday 17th December 06:27
I think you should reconsider the self-build option.
From what I've seen of the kits and the support from the factory and the other builders it's no more difficult than putting together a large airfix model!
Remember you'll have comprehensive instructions, all the parts brand-new and packaged with clear labels and several excellent websites to back you up.
With the sort of hourly rate some specialists charge you could easily double the price of the kit and have learned nothing along the way. By building from scratch you'll save tens of thousands and be able to look after the car yourself which will save you hundreds, if not thousands a year in servicing. Then there's the satisfaction of knowing you've done it yourself which most of the builders will tell you is almost as satisfying as driving the finished article. It wouldn't surprise me if it was quicker to build yourself too.
The only other option I would consider is to bring in a used, built GTR and adjusting it's spec' to suit my requirements.
From what I've seen of the kits and the support from the factory and the other builders it's no more difficult than putting together a large airfix model!
Remember you'll have comprehensive instructions, all the parts brand-new and packaged with clear labels and several excellent websites to back you up.
With the sort of hourly rate some specialists charge you could easily double the price of the kit and have learned nothing along the way. By building from scratch you'll save tens of thousands and be able to look after the car yourself which will save you hundreds, if not thousands a year in servicing. Then there's the satisfaction of knowing you've done it yourself which most of the builders will tell you is almost as satisfying as driving the finished article. It wouldn't surprise me if it was quicker to build yourself too.
The only other option I would consider is to bring in a used, built GTR and adjusting it's spec' to suit my requirements.
jamieheasman said:
From what I've seen of the kits and the support from the factory and the other builders it's no more difficult than putting together a large airfix model!
You haven't seen the state of the airfix models I made as a kid
My main problem would be having the room to do it, and the time. It'd end up as one of those projects that took years. However, the tightwad in me certainly does appreciate and savour the thought...
Just out of interest, how much would it cost to land a complete kit here? The finishing costs must be huge too. By the time you paint it, do the interior and sort through the gremlins?? We know as were going down that track at the moment with Simons car. 
Nothing is cheap about kits I am afraid.
Nothing is cheap about kits I am afraid.kylie said:
Just out of interest, how much would it cost to land a complete kit here? The finishing costs must be huge too. By the time you paint it, do the interior and sort through the gremlins?? We know as were going down that track at the moment with Simons car.
I'm expecting it'll be $200k (around UKP70k for the car fully built + $5k shipping and $1500 compliance). At least it's tax deductable. The factory price for the 0-100-0 car is UKP70k.
I'm in the process of writing Ultima an email to work out the spec for a kit rather than fully built. Their spec list is so long, though, it's taking me ages, but I'm expecting it'll drop $30k off the price
Long live the strong Kiwi dollar.
It must be stressed that an Ultima is not a kit in the true sense of the word. It is a component supercar and much more akin to a proper racing car.
The components are of the best quality and relatively cheap (try sourcing alternatives for the same price). The bodies are supplied in a choice of gel-coat finishes that are good enough to be used as is although some owners do paint them. All interior trimming (what there is of it!) can be done by the home builder.
I have a spreadsheet (which is readily available from the Ultima guys - just search their forum) where you can work out the cost of options. Last time I did this I think it came out at roughly 34,000GBP but that pretty much included everything, including upgrades, minus an engine.
I reckon if you went to a good fabricator/mechanic it would take them just as long to build the car as they wouldn't work on it 24/7. You could get a cheap garage built, fill it with all the required tools and still have plenty left over vs getting the car built 'professionally'.
The components are of the best quality and relatively cheap (try sourcing alternatives for the same price). The bodies are supplied in a choice of gel-coat finishes that are good enough to be used as is although some owners do paint them. All interior trimming (what there is of it!) can be done by the home builder.
I have a spreadsheet (which is readily available from the Ultima guys - just search their forum) where you can work out the cost of options. Last time I did this I think it came out at roughly 34,000GBP but that pretty much included everything, including upgrades, minus an engine.
I reckon if you went to a good fabricator/mechanic it would take them just as long to build the car as they wouldn't work on it 24/7. You could get a cheap garage built, fill it with all the required tools and still have plenty left over vs getting the car built 'professionally'.
I'm banking on 350 hours build time (based on CJ's [Stig on the Ultima Forum] 322 hours). That, at $50/hr = $17500. Add a couple of grand in for buggering around and it's $20k near enough.
UKP35k = NZ$95k. Engine plus gearbox would probably be around $20k, therefore $140k and a few months of drooling would probably do it.
UKP35k = NZ$95k. Engine plus gearbox would probably be around $20k, therefore $140k and a few months of drooling would probably do it.
Good luck with the build,their a fantastic car...Is N.Z ready for one?Judging by the number of Jap Crap/Vauxhalls....Oops..I mean Holdens :hahaI don,t care what they badge them as..its still a poxy Old Mans Vauxhall...Ooh..such street cread..err..Not!)And the "Falken"...also known as a "Ford" with an ever bigger engine.(Listen....I don,t care what size of engine they stick in it,its still a barge that doen,t handle and can only race against similar Vauxhall Barges in a 2 make race series where either make can only come second!
).Yep!Power to the Ultima I say!Good luck with LTSA,and remember,what your "sticker" says is far more important than the state of the car.(And judging by the number of death traps I see on N.Z roads that sort of resemble a car this must be true!...).Sorry for any offence caused,it must be caused by having a "mint" car,that complies with all E.U and U.S.A /Canadian Regs and throughs out less pollution/noise than most of the cars I see over here,yet is deemed unfit for the road.What a load of .........I,ll leave it at that,before I step over the mark!
I don,t care what they badge them as..its still a poxy Old Mans Vauxhall...Ooh..such street cread..err..Not!)And the "Falken"...also known as a "Ford" with an ever bigger engine.(Listen....I don,t care what size of engine they stick in it,its still a barge that doen,t handle and can only race against similar Vauxhall Barges in a 2 make race series where either make can only come second!).Yep!Power to the Ultima I say!Good luck with LTSA,and remember,what your "sticker" says is far more important than the state of the car.(And judging by the number of death traps I see on N.Z roads that sort of resemble a car this must be true!...).Sorry for any offence caused,it must be caused by having a "mint" car,that complies with all E.U and U.S.A /Canadian Regs and throughs out less pollution/noise than most of the cars I see over here,yet is deemed unfit for the road.What a load of .........I,ll leave it at that,before I step over the mark!darren said:
I'm banking on 350 hours build time (based on CJ's [Stig on the Ultima Forum] 322 hours). That, at $50/hr = $17500. Add a couple of grand in for buggering around and it's $20k near enough.
UKP35k = NZ$95k. Engine plus gearbox would probably be around $20k, therefore $140k and a few months of drooling would probably do it.
Ok, a couple of things...
If you want to have a similar spec engine to GMan's, it would cost alot more than $20k NZ - if you buy it from American Speed... but there are other SBC V8 engine builders out there, who do similar specs for less, but
you have to also remember that the Ultima has quite short and a somewhat torturous turn to the exhaust header - which ups the backpressure - and affects the engines ability to scavenge the champers clean, so the American Speed guys will have built the engine to deal with this somewhat restrictive arrangement...
I think GMan uses a Dart aluminum block as well, so if I remember rightly what the guys from one place said, that they'd save about 60-80 kg using an all alloy motor, which are more expensive, but to me well worth the extra pennies.
Also, you'll want to consider how much torque that engine acually has... and probably get PowerHaus2 to build you an uprated, spray bar cooled G50... they quoted me around 12-14K USD for that... but at least you won't be chewing thru gears so often, the oil cooler for the gearbox is a must with the higher power engines...
Even Racing Ray's big cat, with it's 750 Bhp, eats a transmission (G50) once or twice in a season...
I was also considering using the same transmission that is in the Koeninsegg... which handles the torque quite nicely... but these are about 16-18K Euros...
Then there's the clutch, well... I won't be using a standard unit here... the guys at AP Racing quoted me about 600 pounds for a multiplate cerametallic, and about 2400 pounds for a multiplate carbon, but that was for the non porsche tranny...
Also, if you go for a >400-ish Bhp engine, you'll not be able to 'Targa' it... which is what I want to do with mine, then again, you'd probably do just as well in your old blue Scooby in that, at least it's 4WD
As for the wheels... well, I intend to get them made by another UK specialist, since they can do an even lighter billet wheel for me... and I'm not so fond of the 6 spoke wheels when they have a 5 spoke hub...
peterpsg said:
Ok, a couple of things...
If you want to have a similar spec engine to GMan's, it would cost alot more than $20k NZ - if you buy it from American Speed... but there are other SBC V8 engine builders out there, who do similar specs for less, but
you have to also remember that the Ultima has quite short and a somewhat torturous turn to the exhaust header - which ups the backpressure - and affects the engines ability to scavenge the champers clean, so the American Speed guys will have built the engine to deal with this somewhat restrictive arrangement...
I found this in the Ultima Forum - check out the Factory's response re price for a fully-built one:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=136650&f=20&h=0
Also, I don't think I'd be racing it seriously - it's more of a promo/show car which I would take to track days and controlled testing days, so I'm not too worried about trashing gearboxes and clutches.
darren said:
I found this in the Ultima Forum - check out the Factory's response re price for a fully-built one:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=136650&f=20&h=0
Also, I don't think I'd be racing it seriously - it's more of a promo/show car which I would take to track days and controlled testing days, so I'm not too worried about trashing gearboxes and clutches.
£70k, don't forget that's with good old expensive British /EU labour!
If you don't race it much it should be ok... other than some bad luck blowing up the tranny during a burnout, (It wasn't me Mr Policeman, honest!), it's really just a question of duty cycle - aka how often it's thrashed.
As for the colour, let me guess, yellow, like that Saker? Or would it be all logo'd up...
I've seen most of the colours at the factory open day... most of the colours looked ok, I quite liked the silver, but I thought the red was a little to 'Ferrari wannabe' of course, the yellow ones were primo.
Suprisingly the orange one looked ok, but, being an Aucklander in a 'Jaffa Orange' supercar would be just too much for some...
Anyway, it'd be nice to see the options list that you finally go for, and, err since you're running a Graphic Design Biz, are we going to see the build site to end all build sites? - 3d Ultima tour ;-)
Hey Darren,
how's things looking with the LTSA?
And can you check to see what the rules are on engine blocks at the NZ end, since the luverly emmission regulations are kicking in, we might have to get cats, which means a custom exhaust... but since I'd rather have an alloy block, which will save you about 70 odd kgs in weight, I'd need to get cats anyway, so I'm gonna talk to some guys over here who import and modify Holdens in the UK.
And what about customs... would they stick on GST and charge an extra duty for car parts as well, or could we argue that it is a single complete car - albeit in kit form, and thus dodge that potential extra 10% levy...
Anyway I'm going around to an Ultima builders (the joys of being in the UK) place on the weekend, and I'm going to measure a few things, so I can get a few 'alternative' parts, i.e power steering, etc, but he says if I stay too long he'll put a spanner in my hand and get me to help, what a hard life!!!
Anyway I'm still twisting the wifes arm at this end ;-), she wants another house and section, on top of the digital piano!!! ,how's your arm twisting going?
Pete
how's things looking with the LTSA?
And can you check to see what the rules are on engine blocks at the NZ end, since the luverly emmission regulations are kicking in, we might have to get cats, which means a custom exhaust... but since I'd rather have an alloy block, which will save you about 70 odd kgs in weight, I'd need to get cats anyway, so I'm gonna talk to some guys over here who import and modify Holdens in the UK.
And what about customs... would they stick on GST and charge an extra duty for car parts as well, or could we argue that it is a single complete car - albeit in kit form, and thus dodge that potential extra 10% levy...
Anyway I'm going around to an Ultima builders (the joys of being in the UK) place on the weekend, and I'm going to measure a few things, so I can get a few 'alternative' parts, i.e power steering, etc, but he says if I stay too long he'll put a spanner in my hand and get me to help, what a hard life!!!
Anyway I'm still twisting the wifes arm at this end ;-), she wants another house and section, on top of the digital piano!!! ,how's your arm twisting going?
Pete
peterpsg said:
And what about customs... would they stick on GST and charge an extra duty for car parts as well, or could we argue that it is a single complete car - albeit in kit form, and thus dodge that potential extra 10% levy...
Anything imported into NZ by an NZ resident will have GST charged on it whether its a kit car or a whole car or carparts. GST is charged on the freight etc too.
yes I know there are some exceptions but nothing Ultima related would be even close.
Still confused on how your planing on making it tax deductible too. If you can pull it off youll be able to claim the GST back on it anyway but to my mind its just screaming for an audit and a 20% shortfall penalty for lack of reasonable care if not more.
Signed your friendly tax man
dejoux said:
Anything imported into NZ by an NZ resident will have GST charged on it whether its a kit car or a whole car or carparts. GST is charged on the freight etc too.
Still confused on how your planing on making it tax deductible too. If you can pull it off youll be able to claim the GST back on it anyway but to my mind its just screaming for an audit and a 20% shortfall penalty for lack of reasonable care if not more.
Signed your friendly tax man
We own a graphic design/marketing company and the car is simply bought by the company for promotional purchases (it will be signwritten), GST is claimed back (and paid on it if we sell it), and the car is depreciated in accordance with usual company car IRD laws. If we sell it there may be depreciation clawback, but there's no problem in claiming a car for company use.
Also, I'd rather pay (if I had to) 12.5% GST than 17.5% VAT in the UK!
peterpsg said:
Hey Darren,
how's things looking with the LTSA?
And can you check to see what the rules are on engine blocks at the NZ end, since the luverly emmission regulations are kicking in, we might have to get cats, which means a custom exhaust... but since I'd rather have an alloy block, which will save you about 70 odd kgs in weight, I'd need to get cats anyway, so I'm gonna talk to some guys over here who import and modify Holdens in the UK.
And what about customs... would they stick on GST and charge an extra duty for car parts as well, or could we argue that it is a single complete car - albeit in kit form, and thus dodge that potential extra 10% levy...
Anyway I'm going around to an Ultima builders (the joys of being in the UK) place on the weekend, and I'm going to measure a few things, so I can get a few 'alternative' parts, i.e power steering, etc, but he says if I stay too long he'll put a spanner in my hand and get me to help, what a hard life!!!
Anyway I'm still twisting the wifes arm at this end ;-), she wants another house and section, on top of the digital piano!!! ,how's your arm twisting going?
Pete
LTSA are fine - Ultima only make 75 cars a year so as long as the seatbelt and chassis welds, glass, braided hoses, etc, comply, it's a piece of cake. It's about $1500 to have it complied by Neil Fraser.
I don't know about engine block emissions, but California's are amongst the strictest in the world, so if you can sell an Ultima there, presumably you can sell one over here.
I'm about to buy a house in Mt Eden (fed up with driving into work from Swanson), plus I've hired two new employees for Feb, so I'm delaying my purchase until later in the year.
...I've already got a digital piano
I used to be a composer for TV. Darren
>> Edited by darren on Thursday 20th January 06:44
dejoux said:
And what about customs... would they stick on GST and charge an extra duty for car parts as well, or could we argue that it is a single complete car - albeit in kit form, and thus dodge that potential extra 10% levy...
Anything imported into NZ by an NZ resident will have GST charged on it whether its a kit car or a whole car or carparts. GST is charged on the freight etc too.
yes I know there are some exceptions but nothing Ultima related would be even close.
Still confused on how your planing on making it tax deductible too. If you can pull it off youll be able to claim the GST back on it anyway but to my mind its just screaming for an audit and a 20% shortfall penalty for lack of reasonable care if not more.
Signed your friendly tax man
I noticed you used the word 'resident', I have been living in the UK for nearly 3 years, and have dual NZ/British citizenship so does this classify me as non-resident for the purposes of importing the car, and hence tax?
Remember every dollar more I can spend on the car goes towards a bigger engine ;-)
Pete
darren said:
I don't know about engine block emissions, but California's are amongst the strictest in the world, so if you can sell an Ultima there, presumably you can sell one over here.
As I understand things . . . if it's LVVTA then there is no need for any emission compliance certification ???
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