Discussion
Hello Wedgers -
Just thought I should start a new thread following on from comments about my car on the '390 SE Kevlar racers' thread.
It seems my car continues to cause controversy, though I believe most of us accept it as an SEAC with a different body for some reason.
Just to confirm the points for some of you:-
It is listed in TVRCC records as
'TVR 420 SEAC, metallic black, modified windscreen aperture'. These are records taken from the factory files. I have been advised of this (along with the delivery information below) on three separate occassions.
The car is now yellow.
The car was supplied to The TVR Centre in August 1986 and supplied to it's first owner in September 1986. This was Oppenheimer Fund Management (now a part of CIBC - Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce) - so I presume it was a company car for a stockbroker or fund manager.
Details:-
Chassis number SA9DH35P3GB019494
Engine Number NCK 010
Body Code P422-0917
Whole Veh. Type Appr No. 05302T
Reg. No. D659 YLP
V5 description TVR 2 axle rigid body sports
Weight 1180 - 1200 kg
The V5 shows the car to have been new at first registration.
When I bought it the car had been rebuilt, and then repainted yellow, retrimmed, re-upholstered, recarpeted etc..
The car has different bodywork to that which is generally accepted as SEAC bodywork. The body would appear to be that of a 420 SE. In certain light there appears to be a 'rippley' effect, but I haven't done the check for kevlar inside the boot as I don't want to tear out the new boot lining.
I have been told that the car seems to have other differences.
That the car has different bodywork may be due to:-
a) The state of the body was so bad at time of purchase that it was changed and this body was put on it.
b) The purchaser specified this body.
c) The car has been crashed and had the body replaced - and this happend to be with a 390/420 SE body.
I do not know the definitive answer. There was a comment some moths ago that one member had seen a black SEAC body at The TVR Centre in late 1986 and bought part of it.
I have been told by a previous purchaser that the car was used by the factory for a while and modified by the factory. Somewhere in the back of my mind there is the thought that the factory fitted the larger engine. Also there have been suggestions that the car has actually been crashed; initially thought possibly to be whilst in the factory's hands, and an 'argument with a bus-stop' followed sometime later. The truth about the crashes is not known, but I am not unhappy at the thought that the car may have been crashed and had the body replaced. So be it.
The car has had the current bodywork, I believe since at least as early as 1990; if it has been changed at all.
The search for information via setting up the '390 SE Kevlar racers' thread followed on from rev-erend (Alan) finding an article about 390 SE Kevlar racers in a November issue of Fast Lane magazine. He suggested that my car might be one of the two cars written about, or derived from or related to them in some way. The article stated that the race cars were going to be produced in road car form and likely to be called 420 SEL (L = light). The Kevlar race cars had 390 bodywork and would therefore be the precursor to the SEAC, or maybe even the actual initial SEAC before the new styling. I suggested that the factory chose not to use the 420 SEL moniker because of the clash with Mercedes Benz. We know that the road-going SEAC was restyled to the body we all know and appreciate.
However, following a number of authoritative posts from people clearly 'in the know', it would seem that these cars were not Kevlar at all but just thin glassfibre. It seems that this may have been another case of 'pulling the wool over the eyes' (e.g. power outputs, performance figures etc.) on the part of the factory.
I am awaiting further information to see if that gives us any further clues. I may also make an effort to contact previous owners again where I have had no success in the past.
If any of you have any other information I would be pleased to hear from you. Perhaps you know someone who has worked at CIBC for many years. or know someone that had a metallic black/black TVR Wedge between 1986 and 1990.
As I have said - most people accept this car as an SEAC that has, for some reason, different bodywork. There have been a number of critics of the car, but sadly there appear to be a few that simply want to discedit it in some way for reasons related to their own ego. I have been most patient with all the comments over the last year, and I am sure I will continue to be so. However, I feel that spiteful remarks, and comments seemingly just for personal gain are unnecessary.
I welcome all your constructive comments, and any information or thoughts you may have. Maybe when we have all the information we can create a feature on this 'mystery' car and have it placed on the tvrwedgepages - with Mike Bressington's approval of course!
Thank you for your time.
firefox
Just thought I should start a new thread following on from comments about my car on the '390 SE Kevlar racers' thread.
It seems my car continues to cause controversy, though I believe most of us accept it as an SEAC with a different body for some reason.
Just to confirm the points for some of you:-
It is listed in TVRCC records as
'TVR 420 SEAC, metallic black, modified windscreen aperture'. These are records taken from the factory files. I have been advised of this (along with the delivery information below) on three separate occassions.
The car is now yellow.
The car was supplied to The TVR Centre in August 1986 and supplied to it's first owner in September 1986. This was Oppenheimer Fund Management (now a part of CIBC - Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce) - so I presume it was a company car for a stockbroker or fund manager.
Details:-
Chassis number SA9DH35P3GB019494
Engine Number NCK 010
Body Code P422-0917
Whole Veh. Type Appr No. 05302T
Reg. No. D659 YLP
V5 description TVR 2 axle rigid body sports
Weight 1180 - 1200 kg
The V5 shows the car to have been new at first registration.
When I bought it the car had been rebuilt, and then repainted yellow, retrimmed, re-upholstered, recarpeted etc..
The car has different bodywork to that which is generally accepted as SEAC bodywork. The body would appear to be that of a 420 SE. In certain light there appears to be a 'rippley' effect, but I haven't done the check for kevlar inside the boot as I don't want to tear out the new boot lining.
I have been told that the car seems to have other differences.
That the car has different bodywork may be due to:-
a) The state of the body was so bad at time of purchase that it was changed and this body was put on it.
b) The purchaser specified this body.
c) The car has been crashed and had the body replaced - and this happend to be with a 390/420 SE body.
I do not know the definitive answer. There was a comment some moths ago that one member had seen a black SEAC body at The TVR Centre in late 1986 and bought part of it.
I have been told by a previous purchaser that the car was used by the factory for a while and modified by the factory. Somewhere in the back of my mind there is the thought that the factory fitted the larger engine. Also there have been suggestions that the car has actually been crashed; initially thought possibly to be whilst in the factory's hands, and an 'argument with a bus-stop' followed sometime later. The truth about the crashes is not known, but I am not unhappy at the thought that the car may have been crashed and had the body replaced. So be it.
The car has had the current bodywork, I believe since at least as early as 1990; if it has been changed at all.
The search for information via setting up the '390 SE Kevlar racers' thread followed on from rev-erend (Alan) finding an article about 390 SE Kevlar racers in a November issue of Fast Lane magazine. He suggested that my car might be one of the two cars written about, or derived from or related to them in some way. The article stated that the race cars were going to be produced in road car form and likely to be called 420 SEL (L = light). The Kevlar race cars had 390 bodywork and would therefore be the precursor to the SEAC, or maybe even the actual initial SEAC before the new styling. I suggested that the factory chose not to use the 420 SEL moniker because of the clash with Mercedes Benz. We know that the road-going SEAC was restyled to the body we all know and appreciate.
However, following a number of authoritative posts from people clearly 'in the know', it would seem that these cars were not Kevlar at all but just thin glassfibre. It seems that this may have been another case of 'pulling the wool over the eyes' (e.g. power outputs, performance figures etc.) on the part of the factory.
I am awaiting further information to see if that gives us any further clues. I may also make an effort to contact previous owners again where I have had no success in the past.
If any of you have any other information I would be pleased to hear from you. Perhaps you know someone who has worked at CIBC for many years. or know someone that had a metallic black/black TVR Wedge between 1986 and 1990.
As I have said - most people accept this car as an SEAC that has, for some reason, different bodywork. There have been a number of critics of the car, but sadly there appear to be a few that simply want to discedit it in some way for reasons related to their own ego. I have been most patient with all the comments over the last year, and I am sure I will continue to be so. However, I feel that spiteful remarks, and comments seemingly just for personal gain are unnecessary.
I welcome all your constructive comments, and any information or thoughts you may have. Maybe when we have all the information we can create a feature on this 'mystery' car and have it placed on the tvrwedgepages - with Mike Bressington's approval of course!
Thank you for your time.
firefox
Thanks for the comments so far.
The car was sold to me as a 420 SEAC.
If you recall, I entered into discussions with the vendors agents regarding the identity of the car pending possible legal action against him and/or criminal prosecution for deception.
I would not agree that I am trying to prove that it is an SEAC. But there seem to be some people who are trying desperately to prove that it is not an SEAC! I would draw your attention to the description of the car as issued by the factory when it was 'new' and delivered to The TVR Centre and ultimately to its first owner. If it was delivered initially with 'normal' SEAC bodywork then this has clearly been changed - reasons yet to be determined.
The reasons for the different bodywork as put forward in my initial post are those that were put to me early on in the discussions about the car.
In relation to the November 1985 article in Fast Lane, on the 390 SE 'Kevlar' racers, it is stated that the factory intend to produce a production version to be called SEL. It does not state that the car will be restyled. Whilst it was suggested to me that my car might be one of the racers, I have hypothesised that the car could be an interim car - an SEL before the restyling took place but in time for the name SEAC to be given to it. Please note - hypothesised.
This particular thought had not occurred to me prior to coming across that article.
There is clearly a need for further information on the car.
Please also note my remarks towards the bottom of my original post.
Thank you.
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Monday 27th September 04:39
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Monday 27th September 04:45
The car was sold to me as a 420 SEAC.
If you recall, I entered into discussions with the vendors agents regarding the identity of the car pending possible legal action against him and/or criminal prosecution for deception.
I would not agree that I am trying to prove that it is an SEAC. But there seem to be some people who are trying desperately to prove that it is not an SEAC! I would draw your attention to the description of the car as issued by the factory when it was 'new' and delivered to The TVR Centre and ultimately to its first owner. If it was delivered initially with 'normal' SEAC bodywork then this has clearly been changed - reasons yet to be determined.
The reasons for the different bodywork as put forward in my initial post are those that were put to me early on in the discussions about the car.
In relation to the November 1985 article in Fast Lane, on the 390 SE 'Kevlar' racers, it is stated that the factory intend to produce a production version to be called SEL. It does not state that the car will be restyled. Whilst it was suggested to me that my car might be one of the racers, I have hypothesised that the car could be an interim car - an SEL before the restyling took place but in time for the name SEAC to be given to it. Please note - hypothesised.
This particular thought had not occurred to me prior to coming across that article.
There is clearly a need for further information on the car.
Please also note my remarks towards the bottom of my original post.
Thank you.
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Monday 27th September 04:39
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Monday 27th September 04:45
Thanks Jonathan -
Have covered most of the points you mention already and aim to contact past owners at som time, when I get round to it.
As shown by a recent post on another thread, the factory did do odd things from time to time regarding when it sent cars out. In that post, I think a 1984 car turns out to be a 1979 car - or something like that!
Whilst there is a letter on file from TVR stating that the car is a 4.2 litre, there are also other letters from both TVR Engineering and The TVR Centre professing no knowledge of the car!
This would fit well with the story that the car was used by the factory for some time, and therefore not technically 'new' at the time of first registration. It also fits in well with the article on the 390 SE 'Kevlar' racers, where it is stated that the road cars will be 420 SEL and not 390 SEL because the bigger 4.2 engine will be fitted. Similarly the clear story that it had a special engine fitted by the factory. Also according to a recent mechanic (race engineer for Mika Hakkinen at McLaren F1) the car has (until I softened off the shocks a little) a full race set-up with fully adjustable suspension, though the front wishbones appear to be a proprietary item - Ford Cortina, I believe.
As there are tales of it being crashed, the body could have been changed as previously mentioned - but in the ownership of TVR or after it was sold? Could be either.
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Monday 27th September 09:15
Have covered most of the points you mention already and aim to contact past owners at som time, when I get round to it.
As shown by a recent post on another thread, the factory did do odd things from time to time regarding when it sent cars out. In that post, I think a 1984 car turns out to be a 1979 car - or something like that!
Whilst there is a letter on file from TVR stating that the car is a 4.2 litre, there are also other letters from both TVR Engineering and The TVR Centre professing no knowledge of the car!
This would fit well with the story that the car was used by the factory for some time, and therefore not technically 'new' at the time of first registration. It also fits in well with the article on the 390 SE 'Kevlar' racers, where it is stated that the road cars will be 420 SEL and not 390 SEL because the bigger 4.2 engine will be fitted. Similarly the clear story that it had a special engine fitted by the factory. Also according to a recent mechanic (race engineer for Mika Hakkinen at McLaren F1) the car has (until I softened off the shocks a little) a full race set-up with fully adjustable suspension, though the front wishbones appear to be a proprietary item - Ford Cortina, I believe.
As there are tales of it being crashed, the body could have been changed as previously mentioned - but in the ownership of TVR or after it was sold? Could be either.
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Monday 27th September 09:15
Mike B -
Thanks for your thoughts about putting the car on your site.
The only immediately useable photos are those at the time of purchase which show the car without the front bumper - plus a few others taken on a rainy day which I can't find on my hard drive at the moment.
Otherwise I have some high res ones which will take some time to upload/send and therefore some time for you to load onto the site.
I'll have a look and see what I can sort out. In the meantime, I am aiming to have some new photos done some time soon.
cheers!
JJ
Thanks for your thoughts about putting the car on your site.
The only immediately useable photos are those at the time of purchase which show the car without the front bumper - plus a few others taken on a rainy day which I can't find on my hard drive at the moment.
Otherwise I have some high res ones which will take some time to upload/send and therefore some time for you to load onto the site.
I'll have a look and see what I can sort out. In the meantime, I am aiming to have some new photos done some time soon.
cheers!
JJ
firefox engine number of NCK 010 on VIN plate and V5 coincide. The AFM as far as I can see is standard and not Jaguar ('coz I've got one of those too and it don't look the same!).
I did have a look the other day for the number on the engine but could not see it. I'm sure I've seen it before, but I can't remember where. Sorry chaps.
Will try to 'phone the bank (CIBC) in next few days to see if they have any records - have emailed them in the past but had no reply. Will also try again to contact previous owners.
TVR Power responded to an email from me some months ago prior to BBWF - the chap who replied said he had built all the NCK engines - but I have had no further information. Emailed them again the other day and waiting.
Chassis has what appears to be adjustable parallelogram rear suspension with driveshaft as upper link - front suspension shows proprietary lower wishbone unit (Ford Cortina/Sierra I believe - what is the upper wishbone supposed to be like? Presumably, if the car had been crashed the front suspension setup could have been changed?
Bodywork wise, the side skirts seem to be rather flimsy - is this the same for all cars?
firefox
I did have a look the other day for the number on the engine but could not see it. I'm sure I've seen it before, but I can't remember where. Sorry chaps.
Will try to 'phone the bank (CIBC) in next few days to see if they have any records - have emailed them in the past but had no reply. Will also try again to contact previous owners.
TVR Power responded to an email from me some months ago prior to BBWF - the chap who replied said he had built all the NCK engines - but I have had no further information. Emailed them again the other day and waiting.
Chassis has what appears to be adjustable parallelogram rear suspension with driveshaft as upper link - front suspension shows proprietary lower wishbone unit (Ford Cortina/Sierra I believe - what is the upper wishbone supposed to be like? Presumably, if the car had been crashed the front suspension setup could have been changed?
Bodywork wise, the side skirts seem to be rather flimsy - is this the same for all cars?
firefox
I noticed some time ago that the side skirts 'feel' flimsy, thin, sort of light. I just presumed they were all like that.
From what we have so far, the favourite would appear to be that it has been crashed and had the body replaced.
Anyone know anything about the body code I posted up in the first post on this thread?
From what we have so far, the favourite would appear to be that it has been crashed and had the body replaced.
Anyone know anything about the body code I posted up in the first post on this thread?
Interesting points.
Just looked back at your earlier post Neil - just shows TVRs vary as they go! Where does that mean your engine came from then? Isn't your reg number just a few digits away from mine - or is that Duncan (nacnud)?
We know that not all SEACs have the fully adjustable suspension. Is mine the only 'SEAC' with proprietary front units?
Whilst I understand that Chris Schirle described my car as a 'bitza' at BBWF, and indeed it is possible that the body was changed following accident damage, does he know about the possibility of any interim cars? Does he hold detailed records of all the SEACs manufactured? Any details of other cars?
firefox
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Wednesday 29th September 17:29
Just looked back at your earlier post Neil - just shows TVRs vary as they go! Where does that mean your engine came from then? Isn't your reg number just a few digits away from mine - or is that Duncan (nacnud)?
We know that not all SEACs have the fully adjustable suspension. Is mine the only 'SEAC' with proprietary front units?
Whilst I understand that Chris Schirle described my car as a 'bitza' at BBWF, and indeed it is possible that the body was changed following accident damage, does he know about the possibility of any interim cars? Does he hold detailed records of all the SEACs manufactured? Any details of other cars?
firefox
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Wednesday 29th September 17:29
Hmmm -
This is all rather interesting.
Firefox did have a walnut dash at some time bit this was later converted to aluminium finish as it is now. I don't know whether that is relevant?
I understand that the SEAC body was derived from the 390 and not from the 400/450 whisch came later - yes?
firefox
This is all rather interesting.
Firefox did have a walnut dash at some time bit this was later converted to aluminium finish as it is now. I don't know whether that is relevant?
I understand that the SEAC body was derived from the 390 and not from the 400/450 whisch came later - yes?
firefox
Well Neil -
As you are away for 9 - 12 months I would hope it is all sorted by the time you return!
Interestingly, the November 1986 copy of Fast Lane, that your car appears on the front cover of, has an ad for TVR Centre (Giles Cooper) near the back of the mag where thay state "...the TVR Centre has already sold most of the pre-production 420 SEACs." I wonder how many there were. Was yours one of these. Presumably mine would have been one too!
They also state in the same ad "All new TVRs now come with A frame rear suspension, revised exhaust,limited slip diff,etc....."
I also have a number of references to and/or articles featuring your car.
Firefox came with extensive files of information on the car including magazines, photocopied articles, and brochures from the period. I've been going through them again this evening.
There are also a good number of notes written by a previous owner. Sadly a lot of this is written rather small and is quite illegible - a doctor perhaps. Some of it is decipherable but doesn't really help.
However, judging by the number of highlights in magic marker of SEAC features in various articles, it would appear that this previous owner perhaps suspected an SEAC connection. Maybe he had contacted TVRCC and been given the same information and was trying to sort it out?!
firefox
As you are away for 9 - 12 months I would hope it is all sorted by the time you return!
Interestingly, the November 1986 copy of Fast Lane, that your car appears on the front cover of, has an ad for TVR Centre (Giles Cooper) near the back of the mag where thay state "...the TVR Centre has already sold most of the pre-production 420 SEACs." I wonder how many there were. Was yours one of these. Presumably mine would have been one too!
They also state in the same ad "All new TVRs now come with A frame rear suspension, revised exhaust,limited slip diff,etc....."
I also have a number of references to and/or articles featuring your car.
Firefox came with extensive files of information on the car including magazines, photocopied articles, and brochures from the period. I've been going through them again this evening.
There are also a good number of notes written by a previous owner. Sadly a lot of this is written rather small and is quite illegible - a doctor perhaps. Some of it is decipherable but doesn't really help.
However, judging by the number of highlights in magic marker of SEAC features in various articles, it would appear that this previous owner perhaps suspected an SEAC connection. Maybe he had contacted TVRCC and been given the same information and was trying to sort it out?!
firefox
Yes Neil - YOUR car - thought you would spot that!
Well, I'm sure I'm missing something interesting on the box, but this gets curiouser and curiouser!
Examined loads of scribbled notes.
Have found pencil scribbled note amongst a load of other notes talking about other matters - addresses and phone numbers/parts etc:-
"This car had a 350i body"
Also other scribbled notes (some not legible; (?) shows where I am not sure of the legend:-
"Leaving factory details
Metallic black
Roof(?) black
Black Wilton carpets
Trim - grey
duotone(?) grey
Silver decals
Extras - 390 mirrors
power steering
half hide seats
Alpine stereo standard(?)"
Then some other figures relating to dates and production numbers of cars.
There are some photocopies in the file of a mag article that features what appears to be a dark coloured SEAC with a silver stripe along the left third of the body from front to back. As this is a photocopy,this could easily be red, brown, green, or dark blue etc.. Anyone know the whereabouts of this car?
chin chin
JJ
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Wednesday 29th September 21:21
Well, I'm sure I'm missing something interesting on the box, but this gets curiouser and curiouser!
Examined loads of scribbled notes.
Have found pencil scribbled note amongst a load of other notes talking about other matters - addresses and phone numbers/parts etc:-
"This car had a 350i body"
Also other scribbled notes (some not legible; (?) shows where I am not sure of the legend:-
"Leaving factory details
Metallic black
Roof(?) black
Black Wilton carpets
Trim - grey
duotone(?) grey
Silver decals
Extras - 390 mirrors
power steering
half hide seats
Alpine stereo standard(?)"
Then some other figures relating to dates and production numbers of cars.
There are some photocopies in the file of a mag article that features what appears to be a dark coloured SEAC with a silver stripe along the left third of the body from front to back. As this is a photocopy,this could easily be red, brown, green, or dark blue etc.. Anyone know the whereabouts of this car?
chin chin
JJ
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Wednesday 29th September 21:21
2 sheds said:
Just remembered, there is one SEAC that seems to have disappeared, Very early car, factory demo , Metallic Nero Black, itb also had vent panels let into the bonnet but not blended like the others, was registered N4 STY (NASTY)it was used for a press release, Jim Gamsby who was the SEAC registra in the Early 90's never managed to trace it.
Tim
>> Edited by 2 sheds on Wednesday 29th September 22:35
what does '....not blended.....' mean?
Confusing about the 'blended' bit, but I think mine is standard.
Was thinking that N4 STY would be a 1995 or so plate - so not valid for 1985/6! 'Y' reg would indicate a 1983 car.
Have list of owners from DVLA already - shows 'new' at first registration - just pondering some other thoughts.
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Wednesday 29th September 23:37
Was thinking that N4 STY would be a 1995 or so plate - so not valid for 1985/6! 'Y' reg would indicate a 1983 car.
Have list of owners from DVLA already - shows 'new' at first registration - just pondering some other thoughts.
firefox
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Wednesday 29th September 23:37
As far as I am aware, it has been well reported that the SEAC body was 390 derived .
NAS 7Y would still suggest that that car originated in 1983. If this car existed at that time and it was metallic black, could we be getting nearer to my car?
Maybe Tim's remarks above might have some value?
The black motor show car is less likely to be my car - as it was sold and delivered to the customer before the Motor Show (normally held in October?) - unless they borrowed it back for the show!
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Thursday 30th September 02:01
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Thursday 30th September 02:06
NAS 7Y would still suggest that that car originated in 1983. If this car existed at that time and it was metallic black, could we be getting nearer to my car?
Maybe Tim's remarks above might have some value?
The black motor show car is less likely to be my car - as it was sold and delivered to the customer before the Motor Show (normally held in October?) - unless they borrowed it back for the show!
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Thursday 30th September 02:01
>> Edited by firefox1712 on Thursday 30th September 02:06
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