390 boot spoiler controversy...
Discussion
Well after consulting with several scrutineers last year I finally built the Heath rear boot spoiler and tried it out at Lydden yesterday and on practice took 0.5 second from my best time from last week. However, I got pseudo protested by someone who claimed it wasn't legal. It was suggested that I might consider removing it. Decided that removing it was the best policy and took another 0.5 second of the time without which rather shut up the complaints I gather. Down in the 86s region now.
The long and the short of it is that I need as much documentary evidence that TVR supplied the 400SE style boot spoiler to fit on the 350i/390SE cars and so on. Pictures of a 390 with such a spoiler would be great, any paperwork saying the spoiler came from TVR would be better.
The plan is to get confirmation from the championship scrutineers in writing so that this is sorted out before the sprint. And yes it did make a big difference to how the car felt. The pictures do not need to be hi-res BTW. Send them to me direct please.
Also lost the front spoiler on a curb, didn't notice and went into paddock and the car lost a bit of front grip and clipped the inside curb. The data logger showed that I was 0.6 seconds up with half a lap to go. Rats.
Got second but still lost to that pesky Evo VI!
The long and the short of it is that I need as much documentary evidence that TVR supplied the 400SE style boot spoiler to fit on the 350i/390SE cars and so on. Pictures of a 390 with such a spoiler would be great, any paperwork saying the spoiler came from TVR would be better.
The plan is to get confirmation from the championship scrutineers in writing so that this is sorted out before the sprint. And yes it did make a big difference to how the car felt. The pictures do not need to be hi-res BTW. Send them to me direct please.
Also lost the front spoiler on a curb, didn't notice and went into paddock and the car lost a bit of front grip and clipped the inside curb. The data logger showed that I was 0.6 seconds up with half a lap to go. Rats.
Got second but still lost to that pesky Evo VI!
Steve
To my knowledge, the 390 was never offered with a rear boot spoiler, though it is likely that several owners fitted later spoilers, but this won't help you as it won't even be offered on the options list. All the press photos of the Series 2 390SE showed no spoiler. Even early press photos of 400SE's had no spoiler so it would have been an option at best.
Also I believe that the 390SE raced in prodsports by BLE Automotive had no rear spoiler, so I think that you may be onto a loser here.
Technically according to the regulations you could be challenged for fitting a boot spoiler as it is above the centre line of the wheels.
Given that TVR would never have put the car near a wind tunnel and that any boot spoiler is in fairly turbulent air (due to the steep lines of the roof), I wouldn't have thought that it would add much to the downforce, however you were driving the car and said that you could feel the effect.
Maybe you could gain more from looking at the airflow under the car (flatbottom + venturi ??) which you would be allowed under the regulations.
Hopefully I may get to see you later in the year (probably at Loton as I now live 10 miles away), but at the moment I have a sick TVR
David
To my knowledge, the 390 was never offered with a rear boot spoiler, though it is likely that several owners fitted later spoilers, but this won't help you as it won't even be offered on the options list. All the press photos of the Series 2 390SE showed no spoiler. Even early press photos of 400SE's had no spoiler so it would have been an option at best.
Also I believe that the 390SE raced in prodsports by BLE Automotive had no rear spoiler, so I think that you may be onto a loser here.
Technically according to the regulations you could be challenged for fitting a boot spoiler as it is above the centre line of the wheels.
Given that TVR would never have put the car near a wind tunnel and that any boot spoiler is in fairly turbulent air (due to the steep lines of the roof), I wouldn't have thought that it would add much to the downforce, however you were driving the car and said that you could feel the effect.
Maybe you could gain more from looking at the airflow under the car (flatbottom + venturi ??) which you would be allowed under the regulations.
Hopefully I may get to see you later in the year (probably at Loton as I now live 10 miles away), but at the moment I have a sick TVR
David
Surely the Zender rear spoiler would have been a dealer fit, and not in the list of factory options. My understanding is that unless the option was an official factory upgrade then it would not qualify under the Sprinting regs (for allowable body profile changes)
David
>> Edited by davidy on Monday 15th April 11:23
David
>> Edited by davidy on Monday 15th April 11:23
It is confusing as I discussed my ideas with three scruts last year and all said yes go ahead. The ASCMC eligibility scrut said that I had to demonstrate that the spoiler was a factory option (if someone asked for it and it was generally available and was fitted to the car) I could fit one. Basically I need to get the details and put the case forward. If the answer is yes then away I go. If not then I still might experiment but reserve it for track days.
Spoke to the factory and they said yes they had supplied 400SE spoilers for other cars. I also have a price list that includes an SE boot spoiler with a statement that the 450SE came with it as standard and that other SE models could have it optionally. The date is just a few months after the 390 stopped production.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
Spoke to the factory and they said yes they had supplied 400SE spoilers for other cars. I also have a price list that includes an SE boot spoiler with a statement that the 450SE came with it as standard and that other SE models could have it optionally. The date is just a few months after the 390 stopped production.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
quote:
Steve,
My 86 350i was supplied by the selling TVR dealer (I have the invoice) with a 390SE front spoiler, bonnet and brakes plus a Zender rear spoiler, so TVR were certainly supplying this sort of thing at the time
Robert
Any chance you could send me a copy? I can't email direct according to your profile so send me a reply to shpub@compuserve.com.
Thanks
Steve
My 400se (91 model year)does not have the rear spoiler, but (and I will check this when I get home) I seem to remember that the sales brochure for the car offers it as an option.
Would a copy of that help?
Also, perhaps somebody could look at their 390 brochure and see if its listed there too.
Cheers
Andy 400se
Would a copy of that help?
Also, perhaps somebody could look at their 390 brochure and see if its listed there too.
Cheers
Andy 400se
I got most of the original TVR brochures and price lists for the wedges, I will check when I get home.
Mike
www.tvrwedgepages.co.uk
Mike
www.tvrwedgepages.co.uk
quote:
My 400se (91 model year)does not have the rear spoiler, but (and I will check this when I get home) I seem to remember that the sales brochure for the car offers it as an option.
Would a copy of that help?
I have an Oct 90 400SE brouchure that states that the SE models could have a spoiler as an option and that the 450 SE had it as standard so thanks for the offer but I have that base covered.
I feel like one of those investigative lawyers trying to piece together the evidence: I know they did but I have to prove it!
Steve
Somewhere in the history file for my 390 is a receipt for a Zender boot spoiler, so it obviously didn't leave the factory with one. I recall talking to someone (forget who/when/where!) who said that the Zender was originally foam rubber (?!) but TVR copied it in GRP once Zender stopped producing it. So perhaps that style spoiler was a factory option, but I wouldn't know about the 400SE 'plank' as an option on the 390. Surely (whether aerodynamics played a part or not) they deliberately changed things to make the newer models look different?
To the chap who suggested Steve play around with the underside aerodynamics: I recall Steve non-too-surgically removing the under-boot spoiler from his car on a tyre wall, and then saying it was a fashion accessory that added no effect other than 25Kg of weight! Probably true, as evidenced by the fact that the 400SE shell only vaguely includes the shape of the spoiler, it can't possibly do anything constructive! I certainly still get a lot of comments on the big silver wing behind my wheels, whether it works or not....! ;-)
W.
To the chap who suggested Steve play around with the underside aerodynamics: I recall Steve non-too-surgically removing the under-boot spoiler from his car on a tyre wall, and then saying it was a fashion accessory that added no effect other than 25Kg of weight! Probably true, as evidenced by the fact that the 400SE shell only vaguely includes the shape of the spoiler, it can't possibly do anything constructive! I certainly still get a lot of comments on the big silver wing behind my wheels, whether it works or not....! ;-)
W.
I'd agree that the lower rear spoiler on a 390 has little or no effect (and probably weighed a bit) but I was suggesting that a proper underside and venturi should be considered.
A well knwon German TVR fanatic Bert Zimmerman (who is also an automotive engineer) did such a thing with a heavily modified (420bhp) Cosworth M series car and reported no lift at 160mph plus
I mean it would allow Steve to do some more research and spend another Winter designing things for his car!!
David
A well knwon German TVR fanatic Bert Zimmerman (who is also an automotive engineer) did such a thing with a heavily modified (420bhp) Cosworth M series car and reported no lift at 160mph plus
I mean it would allow Steve to do some more research and spend another Winter designing things for his car!!
David
Stig, love some piccies please as it all adds to the case I am putting together. So far I have discovered at least 3 390SE with the spoiler with two of them saying that the spoiler was supplied fitted by TVR. TVR have stated that they did supply the spoiler for cars other than the 400/450SE. I have a price list that quotes the spoiler as an option for the SE model cars.
As for Venturi etc. I have extensively played with this and have a pretty efficient splitter/air dam coupled with a fairly clean rear exit. The car is stable at 150 mph but I reckon that the boot design is causing around 100-150 lb of lift at the rear which is why I am trying to reduce. It is a question of working out where the next problem is and addressing it. If I can stick a boot spoiler on it, this is a quick and easy solution. If I can't then a next revision of the below axle aerodynamics will be needed.
I know the current design works extremely well as when part of it broke I could not turn in correctly as the front lost grip. The cornering speed was around 70-80 mph.
Steve
As for Venturi etc. I have extensively played with this and have a pretty efficient splitter/air dam coupled with a fairly clean rear exit. The car is stable at 150 mph but I reckon that the boot design is causing around 100-150 lb of lift at the rear which is why I am trying to reduce. It is a question of working out where the next problem is and addressing it. If I can stick a boot spoiler on it, this is a quick and easy solution. If I can't then a next revision of the below axle aerodynamics will be needed.
I know the current design works extremely well as when part of it broke I could not turn in correctly as the front lost grip. The cornering speed was around 70-80 mph.
Steve
I remember many moons ago reading a buying report on Tasmins in Autocar. At the time the 390 was just making its debut and to answer your question - it wasn't fitted with a boot spoier. The emphasis about the SE as we all should know, was that Andy Rouse had tuned the engine to produce its bhp. The spoiler hanging under the rear bumper was there awhich at the time was bolted on before it was made into a complete unit with the rear bumper after some early types fell off under vibration.
Besides I have a feeling that these additions - whilst beefing up the car's appearence didn't do anything in the aero department. Anyone else agree?
Besides I have a feeling that these additions - whilst beefing up the car's appearence didn't do anything in the aero department. Anyone else agree?
quote:
Besides I have a feeling that these additions - whilst beefing up the car's appearence didn't do anything in the aero department. Anyone else agree?
Certainly. It also adds 25 KG of weight at the extremity of the car where you don't need it. The front spoiler is not much better and weighed some 20 kG but without it the car starts to lift at around 140 mph and gets very twitchy. So I have spend several years developing the 520's front to adress this problem.
The 520 has a lighter deeper air dam, 80mm splitter and a rubber spoiler behind the splitter to prevent air from getting under neath the car. The air from the rad is deflected over the bonnet via a metre wide bonnet scoop to also help the aerodynamics. The rubber spoiler is 1/2 inch above the ground and actually touches under breaking but it stops air from getting under the car. What air does get through accelerates out using a sort of Venturi effect but this is quite crude and could be improved on. Maybe next year.
The effect is that without the front splitter, the car will understeer into corners at a lower speed and while sprinting I am totally reliant on it to give me downforce/remove lift. I have also lowered the front by about 3-4 inches as well. Take it off and I can really feel the difference. The 520 may not look it but it is probably very much leading edge design as far as Wedgii are concerned. Pun intended of course
Steve
Steve et al. I have spent the last 12 months or so collecting most of the regalia associated with the 390/400/450 Wedges(sad isnt it)
I was just browsing through a price guide, and the official catalogue .. the spoilers were offered as a factory fitted option, although the origional brochure doesnt actually list or show a boot spoiler for the 390/400 or 450's.
If anyone wants some copies of these docs.. email me
Jason
I was just browsing through a price guide, and the official catalogue .. the spoilers were offered as a factory fitted option, although the origional brochure doesnt actually list or show a boot spoiler for the 390/400 or 450's.
If anyone wants some copies of these docs.. email me
Jason
I do still have the 390, although of the road in a fairly sad state at the moment, waiting for me to through buckets of cash at it!
It has what I beleive is the Zender spoiler, not the 400SE style (although I might be changing it to that). I cannot find anything in the paperwork about the spoiler.
Rich.
It has what I beleive is the Zender spoiler, not the 400SE style (although I might be changing it to that). I cannot find anything in the paperwork about the spoiler.
Rich.
quote:
Steve - my old 390 had a boot spoiler (400SE stylee) and certainly seemed original as the screws that held it on had to be replaced as they had rusted away!
Richard Aldous now has the car (or did). I've got some pics at home which I can scan if you like but obviously no paperwork.
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