Discussion
Are you talking real walnut veneer or plastic wood-effect here? There are marked differences; the real Mccoy is (a) expensive (b) an art form (c) easy to screw up. The plastic stuff is (a) cheap-ish from B&Q (b) reminiscent of Blue Peter (c) easy to screw up.
Take your pick!
I attended a 'taster' course in wood veneering; even went so far as to buy the bits, animal glue, veneer hammer etc. Then I tried it, and apart from being banned from the kitchen by Claire indoors, I found it very easy to ruin 17 quids-worth of American Burr Walnut.
But don't let me put you off trying... ;p
Ian
Take your pick!
I attended a 'taster' course in wood veneering; even went so far as to buy the bits, animal glue, veneer hammer etc. Then I tried it, and apart from being banned from the kitchen by Claire indoors, I found it very easy to ruin 17 quids-worth of American Burr Walnut.
But don't let me put you off trying... ;p
Ian
paul dacosta said: try carnoisseur.com or buy the mag,they do a cockpit film in a burr walnut,very convincing.price about £25.00 for about 0.5 metre.
A mate tried that in just S3c ... it really did look cheap when he had finished it. you have to get the surface 100% or its gonna look shit !
Previous owner of my SEAC tried re-veneering the glove box door. Loads of glue everywhere, looked dire (but better than with the veneer lying in the bottom of the footwell
)
Glue marks still visible on the vinyl around the door even though I've had it reveneered.
Various passengers have tried picking off the glue (saves having to watch the scenery rushing past
), it's hard work but when it comes off it leaves the vinyl cleaner than original - doh!
) Glue marks still visible on the vinyl around the door even though I've had it reveneered.
Various passengers have tried picking off the glue (saves having to watch the scenery rushing past
), it's hard work but when it comes off it leaves the vinyl cleaner than original - doh!My glove box lid, dial fascia and door pulls are currently undergoing a renovation. some of the burr walnut from one door pull had come off too. The guy doing it is a specialist and does concours Jags etc. That little lot is costing me Aust$700 and will take one month to complete. They use some sort of vacuum machine to re-attach the walnut if it's flaking.
All very techical and as remarked before, an art form.
This appears to be one area you can't skimp.
p.s. I think he said it would make the car handle better too..
All very techical and as remarked before, an art form.
This appears to be one area you can't skimp.
p.s. I think he said it would make the car handle better too..
If you use the old animal glue, it sets in no time flat, which is good because it pulls the veneer into shape. If you use PVA like a lot of restorers do, it takes a long time to set; so they put the part in a heavy-duty plastic bag and attach it to a vacuum pump. As you suck the air out, the bag wraps itself around the part and keeps the veneer firmly in place while the glue dries.
Ian
Ian
I just did my glove box door. It wasn't all that hard. I applied epoxy to the door and clamped the walnut veneer to the surface between two hard wood boards. I then just sanded and refinished it. I also applied the veneer to the metal door trim. It was much harder. My source for the walnut was www.joewoodworker.com. The cost was about $40.00 US. There are pictures of the veneers on the site so you can pick the grain that best matches the original. Mine is almost identical.
A few years ago(97), I did the dashboard of my wedge with excellent materials, a super trade manual, and an excerpt from kitcar magazine that Arts Veneer Co had written.
Although I say it myself, I did a good job.
First- You need Patience, it isnt like doing underbody stuff. If you are hasty, dont bother because it will look awful; instead, go to work, earn money, pay someone else to do it.
Second- A trial run on using some old hardboard or the dashboard itself with spare veneer is essential to get the hang of bonding, filling and lacquering.
Do not underestimate the latter processes. To get it right and dandy takes hours (using Rustins lacquer).
Third- Downlaod the Arts and Veneers help manuals and catalogues.
Fourth- The procedure isnt very expensive, it just takes time. I havent checked the prices but last time the materials came to about 50UKP and there was shed loads left over.
Fifth- Use Burr Walnut- anything else looks crap. Trust Jaguar etc, they have tried other stuff and it was pants.
Sixth- Always go for a reversed mirror centre butt midway between the dials on the dashboard. ie so that the veneers flow away from the centre with the virtually 'same' pattern. Looks fantastic on the wedge.
Seventh- When I did mine, I had to epoxy a very thin sheet of aircraft modelling veneer onto the metal dashboard first to provide a wood base for the burr walnut because the glue used for the walnut is PVA (ie water soluble). The veneer has to be soaked in water to become pliable and literally ironed onto its wooden base. PVA glue doesnt bond wood to metal, hence the interstitial wooden laminate requirement.
With more modern adhesives, you may be able to consider using an alternative adhesive direct at the veneer/metal barrier. This is an unknown for me, but adhesives for aramid composites have come on tremendously in the past ten years. You will need to ask Arts and Veneers Technical dept first. They used to be excellent.
Eighth- dont use plastic wood. it is crap
ninth- do this job in winter when Tiv is dormant. it needs to be done in warm conditions
10th You can always do bits like the hideous ashtrays and bitsNbobs storage areas first to get confident. Making up little structures in thin aircraft plywood (from model shop)and PVA. Once done you can veneer them . They look good and complement the dash because you are using the same Burr as the dash
11th If really adventurous, look up some techniques on Marquetrey and Inlaying complementary Text or images (ie a TVR logo - all rights acknowledged of course)
Good luck
Rob
Now, I must go and look at that crappy Chimp dash
Art Veneers Co. Ltd
www.artveneers.co.uk/
Mail order veneer merchants and loads of other relevant stuff.
Telephone and fax
Tel: (01638) 712550
Fax: (01638) 712330
Address
Chiswick Avenue Industrial Estate
Mildenhall
Bury St. Edmunds
Suffolk
IP28 7AY
Although I say it myself, I did a good job.
First- You need Patience, it isnt like doing underbody stuff. If you are hasty, dont bother because it will look awful; instead, go to work, earn money, pay someone else to do it.
Second- A trial run on using some old hardboard or the dashboard itself with spare veneer is essential to get the hang of bonding, filling and lacquering.
Do not underestimate the latter processes. To get it right and dandy takes hours (using Rustins lacquer).
Third- Downlaod the Arts and Veneers help manuals and catalogues.
Fourth- The procedure isnt very expensive, it just takes time. I havent checked the prices but last time the materials came to about 50UKP and there was shed loads left over.
Fifth- Use Burr Walnut- anything else looks crap. Trust Jaguar etc, they have tried other stuff and it was pants.
Sixth- Always go for a reversed mirror centre butt midway between the dials on the dashboard. ie so that the veneers flow away from the centre with the virtually 'same' pattern. Looks fantastic on the wedge.
Seventh- When I did mine, I had to epoxy a very thin sheet of aircraft modelling veneer onto the metal dashboard first to provide a wood base for the burr walnut because the glue used for the walnut is PVA (ie water soluble). The veneer has to be soaked in water to become pliable and literally ironed onto its wooden base. PVA glue doesnt bond wood to metal, hence the interstitial wooden laminate requirement.
With more modern adhesives, you may be able to consider using an alternative adhesive direct at the veneer/metal barrier. This is an unknown for me, but adhesives for aramid composites have come on tremendously in the past ten years. You will need to ask Arts and Veneers Technical dept first. They used to be excellent.
Eighth- dont use plastic wood. it is crap
ninth- do this job in winter when Tiv is dormant. it needs to be done in warm conditions
10th You can always do bits like the hideous ashtrays and bitsNbobs storage areas first to get confident. Making up little structures in thin aircraft plywood (from model shop)and PVA. Once done you can veneer them . They look good and complement the dash because you are using the same Burr as the dash
11th If really adventurous, look up some techniques on Marquetrey and Inlaying complementary Text or images (ie a TVR logo - all rights acknowledged of course)
Good luck
Rob
Now, I must go and look at that crappy Chimp dash
Art Veneers Co. Ltd
www.artveneers.co.uk/
Mail order veneer merchants and loads of other relevant stuff.
Telephone and fax
Tel: (01638) 712550
Fax: (01638) 712330
Address
Chiswick Avenue Industrial Estate
Mildenhall
Bury St. Edmunds
Suffolk
IP28 7AY
As the veneer is glued to another thin wood that is in turn glued to the car. Would it be possible, assuming the inner aircraft thin plywood has a certain rigidity, to glue the two together sand and finish before glueing the finnished article into place.
That way it would not be installed until satisfactory results are achieved.
I'm sure there are plenty of good reason why it isn't done this way, (or people would be doing it, gotta be easier)
Jeff
>> Edited by jeff m on Thursday 21st November 18:12
That way it would not be installed until satisfactory results are achieved.
I'm sure there are plenty of good reason why it isn't done this way, (or people would be doing it, gotta be easier)
Jeff
>> Edited by jeff m on Thursday 21st November 18:12
In an email to RL, Phil350 said:-
>Thanks for the detailled reply.
>Couple of further questions,hope you don't mind
Not at all.
Did you download the Manual and Catalogue + email their tech dept. Perhaps others would like to hear about your findings... I would.
PM350
1.Fillers - What did dou use ?
I didnt buy any, the following gives best match. Use some of the spare Veneer, get your sanding machine + Coarse grit (prefer with bag), collect dust. Trust me you will have plenty. Mix dust with PVA glue as a filler. Overfill the veneer. MAKE sure you get rid of all the gaps. Sand whole surface back to smooth surface. Note Veneer is only 0.8 mm Thick. Careful.
2.Lacquering - how to apply and number of coats
The Rustins laquer + Manual above give explicit instructions. Start thin. Fill the grain. Brush or spray. If you get it on thin, do several applications first, then rub it down BY HAND with 00 (very fine) guage wire wool or ??? (forgotten name) paper.
25/Nov . Just remembered its Crocus Paper (why the name? I dont know)
As you add more layers (you may get up to 20!) you reduce the number of applications of laquer between rubbing downs. As the job progresses you change to 000 guage.
Tip. Got to a Hobbyist model shop and ask them for the prep materials if Arts Veneers dont sell
You MUST ALWAYS rub in direction of grain. Do NOT go other way or circular otherwise you will F.. it and need to start again. Do NOT press too hard, let material do the work.
All of above needs practice. There is no substitute. It isnt difficult, doesnt require brains, but does most definitely require patience.
PM350
3.Did you cover the door strips? Where the veneer has chipped off mine the exposed strip is metal.From what you were saying it wolud appear this beeds covering first with thin wood.
How then do you get the finnish around the edges?
RL
I would personally try an experiment with a 2pack epoxy glue (Evode or similar) to bond the veneer direct to the steel on the door strip only because it is such a snmall surface area and easier to manage than dash (PLUS we dont look at the door strip all the time).
First, I would do a little experiment to prove the theory!! I would be sad if you knacked the door trim
This might work on the steel door strip assuming it was cleaned, hence No rust or grease if :-
a) the metal strip were narrow, say 1 to 1.5 cm. Any wider and it would be a pain and the joins would show.
b)You had previously ironed the veneer flat and dry with brown paper having dunked it in water. Remember to leave the veneer overwide ie 2 to 3 cm and carefully trim back edges after curing with a hook-blade scalpel or Veneer knife
c) You may have to butt 2 to 3 pieces end to end to do the door strip because the veneer is 300mm long, door strip 600mm??
PM350
4.You mentioned ironing on the veneer. Is it supplied pre glued ?
No. PVA waterproof wood glue is the bonding agent. Buy at DIY shop. Cheap and easy to work.
>> Edited by robertlee on Tuesday 26th November 12:38
>Thanks for the detailled reply.
>Couple of further questions,hope you don't mind
Not at all.
Did you download the Manual and Catalogue + email their tech dept. Perhaps others would like to hear about your findings... I would.
PM350
1.Fillers - What did dou use ?
I didnt buy any, the following gives best match. Use some of the spare Veneer, get your sanding machine + Coarse grit (prefer with bag), collect dust. Trust me you will have plenty. Mix dust with PVA glue as a filler. Overfill the veneer. MAKE sure you get rid of all the gaps. Sand whole surface back to smooth surface. Note Veneer is only 0.8 mm Thick. Careful.
2.Lacquering - how to apply and number of coats
The Rustins laquer + Manual above give explicit instructions. Start thin. Fill the grain. Brush or spray. If you get it on thin, do several applications first, then rub it down BY HAND with 00 (very fine) guage wire wool or ??? (forgotten name) paper.
25/Nov . Just remembered its Crocus Paper (why the name? I dont know)
As you add more layers (you may get up to 20!) you reduce the number of applications of laquer between rubbing downs. As the job progresses you change to 000 guage.
Tip. Got to a Hobbyist model shop and ask them for the prep materials if Arts Veneers dont sell
You MUST ALWAYS rub in direction of grain. Do NOT go other way or circular otherwise you will F.. it and need to start again. Do NOT press too hard, let material do the work.
All of above needs practice. There is no substitute. It isnt difficult, doesnt require brains, but does most definitely require patience.
PM350
3.Did you cover the door strips? Where the veneer has chipped off mine the exposed strip is metal.From what you were saying it wolud appear this beeds covering first with thin wood.
How then do you get the finnish around the edges?
RL
I would personally try an experiment with a 2pack epoxy glue (Evode or similar) to bond the veneer direct to the steel on the door strip only because it is such a snmall surface area and easier to manage than dash (PLUS we dont look at the door strip all the time).
First, I would do a little experiment to prove the theory!! I would be sad if you knacked the door trim
This might work on the steel door strip assuming it was cleaned, hence No rust or grease if :-
a) the metal strip were narrow, say 1 to 1.5 cm. Any wider and it would be a pain and the joins would show.
b)You had previously ironed the veneer flat and dry with brown paper having dunked it in water. Remember to leave the veneer overwide ie 2 to 3 cm and carefully trim back edges after curing with a hook-blade scalpel or Veneer knife
c) You may have to butt 2 to 3 pieces end to end to do the door strip because the veneer is 300mm long, door strip 600mm??
PM350
4.You mentioned ironing on the veneer. Is it supplied pre glued ?
No. PVA waterproof wood glue is the bonding agent. Buy at DIY shop. Cheap and easy to work.
>> Edited by robertlee on Tuesday 26th November 12:38
Jeff M said
>As the veneer is glued to another thin wood that is in turn glued to the car. Would it be possible, assuming the inner aircraft thin plywood has a certain rigidity, to glue the two together sand and finish before glueing the finnished article into place.
RL
I wouldnt do this because, after spending maybe 40 hours creating my masterpiece, to then try and fit it to the steel substrate, epoxy it, cut all the holes for guages, leds, lamps etc I might be a tad peed off if my knife slipped!!!
Your idea might work.. Let me know how you get on
rob
>As the veneer is glued to another thin wood that is in turn glued to the car. Would it be possible, assuming the inner aircraft thin plywood has a certain rigidity, to glue the two together sand and finish before glueing the finnished article into place.
RL
I wouldnt do this because, after spending maybe 40 hours creating my masterpiece, to then try and fit it to the steel substrate, epoxy it, cut all the holes for guages, leds, lamps etc I might be a tad peed off if my knife slipped!!!
Your idea might work.. Let me know how you get on
rob
Wedg1e said
..old animal glue, it sets in no time flat, which is good because it pulls the veneer into shape
RL
Not good, it induces residual stresses into the composite structure which will relieve themselves eventually, usually by delamination, just like the TVR plastic wood removing itself from the steel. Stick to slow curing PVA wood to wood bond and epoxy wood to steel bond. (I get my 2pack epoxy adhesives from dinghy sailing chandlers - small pots about 10 quid)
Wedge1e
. If you use PVA like a lot of restorers do, it takes a long time to set; so they put the part in a heavy-duty plastic bag and attach it to a vacuum pump. As you suck the air out, the bag wraps itself around the part and keeps the veneer firmly in place while the glue dries.
RL. True, but you and I can use Cans of beans etc and put the uncured assembly into a normal room temp say 18 to 22C and let it cure natuarally. It works well but more slowly. The more weight, evenly spread, the better. The formaer saves wife girlfriend partner etc getting anxious about nefarious activities with Vacuumn Cleaner.. roboto san
..old animal glue, it sets in no time flat, which is good because it pulls the veneer into shape
RL
Not good, it induces residual stresses into the composite structure which will relieve themselves eventually, usually by delamination, just like the TVR plastic wood removing itself from the steel. Stick to slow curing PVA wood to wood bond and epoxy wood to steel bond. (I get my 2pack epoxy adhesives from dinghy sailing chandlers - small pots about 10 quid)
Wedge1e
. If you use PVA like a lot of restorers do, it takes a long time to set; so they put the part in a heavy-duty plastic bag and attach it to a vacuum pump. As you suck the air out, the bag wraps itself around the part and keeps the veneer firmly in place while the glue dries.
RL. True, but you and I can use Cans of beans etc and put the uncured assembly into a normal room temp say 18 to 22C and let it cure natuarally. It works well but more slowly. The more weight, evenly spread, the better. The formaer saves wife girlfriend partner etc getting anxious about nefarious activities with Vacuumn Cleaner.. roboto san
Try this link for refurbished dash/switch and glove boxes.
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/shpub/wcat12.html
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/shpub/wcat12.html
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