Starter solenoid - This car is driving me nuts
Discussion
Pretty much as the title says really. I thought TVR's were just given some bad press 
Anyhow here is the next problem...Reversed the car out of the garage no problem gave it a bit of once over with a bucket and a leather.
Started it up drove into the garage, stopped the engine. Thought just needs to go in a bit further, turn the key nothing, can hear the pump start-up.
The next morning, thought I would have a look at the starter motor, not hard to remove, seems that the solenoid has given up the ghost. Starter spins over OK. Took the solenoid off and apart the plunger will only move maybe 10mm when energized, and only from a certain point when pushed into the casing.
So the question is are there any spares lurking with you folk.
In the meantime, I will contact the local alternator/starter repair people in a bit to see what they have to say.
I seem o be spending more time fixing than doing anything else.
Anyhow here is the next problem...Reversed the car out of the garage no problem gave it a bit of once over with a bucket and a leather.
Started it up drove into the garage, stopped the engine. Thought just needs to go in a bit further, turn the key nothing, can hear the pump start-up.
The next morning, thought I would have a look at the starter motor, not hard to remove, seems that the solenoid has given up the ghost. Starter spins over OK. Took the solenoid off and apart the plunger will only move maybe 10mm when energized, and only from a certain point when pushed into the casing.
So the question is are there any spares lurking with you folk.
In the meantime, I will contact the local alternator/starter repair people in a bit to see what they have to say.
I seem o be spending more time fixing than doing anything else.
There's a possibility that you're testing the solenoid incorrectly
Did you test the solenoid by earthing its body and supplying the small male spade terminal with a positive ?
If answer to the above is yes, that was an incorrect test
The solenoid has 2 x coils that are both energised for the Plunger pull-in operation (One is no longer energised once the main solenoid motor contacts are made due to it then being positive at each end)
Testing the solenoid by earthing its body and supplying the small male spade terminal with a positive is not going to pull-in the plunger as the only coil being energised is the hold-in coil
If you have tested it incorrectly, try the following test
Solenoid disconnected and removed from starter
Earth solenoid body and also earth the main solenoid cap contact that the motors heavy cable was connected to, now supply the small spade terminal with a positive
Be careful with the plunger as there is a strong spring on it that will fire it out of the solenoid like a missile
Did you test the solenoid by earthing its body and supplying the small male spade terminal with a positive ?
If answer to the above is yes, that was an incorrect test
The solenoid has 2 x coils that are both energised for the Plunger pull-in operation (One is no longer energised once the main solenoid motor contacts are made due to it then being positive at each end)
Testing the solenoid by earthing its body and supplying the small male spade terminal with a positive is not going to pull-in the plunger as the only coil being energised is the hold-in coil
If you have tested it incorrectly, try the following test
Solenoid disconnected and removed from starter
Earth solenoid body and also earth the main solenoid cap contact that the motors heavy cable was connected to, now supply the small spade terminal with a positive
Be careful with the plunger as there is a strong spring on it that will fire it out of the solenoid like a missile
Hi Penelope, not seen you about for a while, good to hear from you.
However to answer your question. The starter is wired as if it was on the car. There are 2 spade terminals, a small 187 and larger 250, only the 250 is connected. I think perhaps the small one would be used with a ballast resistor?
When the starter motor is bolted to the car there are only 2 connections. Pos direct to the battery (only connected when the solenoid fully retracts makes contact to spin the starter). The 250 spade I assume is a switched live from the ignition, I was bypassing the ignition directly connecting to the battery positive. It sparks and that is about it.
I then removed the solenoid and did as you described in the first part of your reply, connected battery neg to the metal casing and applied pos to the 250 terminal it was at that point that I noted that the sprung loaded plunger has to be depressed to a point where the energised coils pull it the rest of the way.
My reason for doing this way was to mimic the way that the solenoid would be or was wired as if bolted the car.
However to answer your question. The starter is wired as if it was on the car. There are 2 spade terminals, a small 187 and larger 250, only the 250 is connected. I think perhaps the small one would be used with a ballast resistor?
When the starter motor is bolted to the car there are only 2 connections. Pos direct to the battery (only connected when the solenoid fully retracts makes contact to spin the starter). The 250 spade I assume is a switched live from the ignition, I was bypassing the ignition directly connecting to the battery positive. It sparks and that is about it.
I then removed the solenoid and did as you described in the first part of your reply, connected battery neg to the metal casing and applied pos to the 250 terminal it was at that point that I noted that the sprung loaded plunger has to be depressed to a point where the energised coils pull it the rest of the way.
My reason for doing this way was to mimic the way that the solenoid would be or was wired as if bolted the car.
Found a diagram of a typical pre-engaged starter motor solenoid
Looking at terminal 50 on the solenoid, it can be seen that it connects to 2 coils, 1 coil on the right which is the hold-in coil continues onwards directly down to earth, the other coil on the left which is the heavier pull-in coil continues onwards down to earth through the motors armature. Once the main contacts are made by the plunger being drawn into the solenoid barrel, the heavier pull-in coil is no longer negative due to the motor contact applying a positive to it
Looking at terminal 50 on the solenoid, it can be seen that it connects to 2 coils, 1 coil on the right which is the hold-in coil continues onwards directly down to earth, the other coil on the left which is the heavier pull-in coil continues onwards down to earth through the motors armature. Once the main contacts are made by the plunger being drawn into the solenoid barrel, the heavier pull-in coil is no longer negative due to the motor contact applying a positive to it
BlueWedgy said:
Hi Penelope, not seen you about for a while, good to hear from you.
However to answer your question. The starter is wired as if it was on the car. There are 2 spade terminals, a small 187 and larger 250, only the 250 is connected. I think perhaps the small one would be used with a ballast resistor?
When the starter motor is bolted to the car there are only 2 connections. Pos direct to the battery (only connected when the solenoid fully retracts makes contact to spin the starter). The 250 spade I assume is a switched live from the ignition, I was bypassing the ignition directly connecting to the battery positive. It sparks and that is about it.
I then removed the solenoid and did as you described in the first part of your reply, connected battery neg to the metal casing and applied pos to the 250 terminal it was at that point that I noted that the sprung loaded plunger has to be depressed to a point where the energised coils pull it the rest of the way.
My reason for doing this way was to mimic the way that the solenoid would be or was wired as if bolted the car.
Ok thenHowever to answer your question. The starter is wired as if it was on the car. There are 2 spade terminals, a small 187 and larger 250, only the 250 is connected. I think perhaps the small one would be used with a ballast resistor?
When the starter motor is bolted to the car there are only 2 connections. Pos direct to the battery (only connected when the solenoid fully retracts makes contact to spin the starter). The 250 spade I assume is a switched live from the ignition, I was bypassing the ignition directly connecting to the battery positive. It sparks and that is about it.
I then removed the solenoid and did as you described in the first part of your reply, connected battery neg to the metal casing and applied pos to the 250 terminal it was at that point that I noted that the sprung loaded plunger has to be depressed to a point where the energised coils pull it the rest of the way.
My reason for doing this way was to mimic the way that the solenoid would be or was wired as if bolted the car.
You have tested the solenoid off the motor but not allowed for the pull-in coil, you have only supplied the hold-in coil
With the solenoid on the bench and no main battery supply connected to the solenoid cap contact, earth the other contact that would normaly be connected to the motor, the test is as explained above
BlueWedgy said:
When the starter motor is bolted to the car there are only 2 connections. Pos direct to the battery (only connected when the solenoid fully retracts makes contact to spin the starter). The 250 spade I assume is a switched live from the ignition, I was bypassing the ignition directly connecting to the battery positive. It sparks and that is about it.
First test the solenoid correctly on the bench, there is every chance of it being goodThe fact that you get a spark when bridging the 250 terminal to battery positive(terminal 50 it is) but the solenoid doesn't throw in suggests that the motor is suffering from bad commutation (brushes to commutator connections poor)
or
The motors armature is faulty
The above problems will prevent the solenoid pull-in coil from earthing through the motor, hence not activating the solenoid plunger
That spark you are getting is from the solenoid hold-in coil current draw
EDITED - IGNORE THIS POST was in a rush, food on the table, see post below
ok then, there is a fault with solenoid contacts or starter not going all the way into mesh or even though the motor is turning it could still be at fault
Bye for now, must go
ok then, there is a fault with solenoid contacts or starter not going all the way into mesh or even though the motor is turning it could still be at fault
Bye for now, must go
Edited by Penelope Stopit on Tuesday 23 March 18:16
Ignore my above post
Are you sure that the starter has a good earth to it, is the engine earth good ?
If the starter has a good earth to it, continued below
A solenoid with known good coils which is what you have as you've proven this with a bench test should pull-in as long as the motor is good
The motor turning doesn't mean it's good but perhaps the brushes and commutator have been disturbed a little with the work done
There is a chance that the solenoid will now pull-in and the motor work correctly
Have often hit the barrel of the motor with a piece of wood and a hammer to bounce the brushes and gain a good enough contact to start many vehicles
You could check if the starter is now working as long as the earth to it is good
Are you sure that the starter has a good earth to it, is the engine earth good ?
If the starter has a good earth to it, continued below
A solenoid with known good coils which is what you have as you've proven this with a bench test should pull-in as long as the motor is good
The motor turning doesn't mean it's good but perhaps the brushes and commutator have been disturbed a little with the work done
There is a chance that the solenoid will now pull-in and the motor work correctly
Have often hit the barrel of the motor with a piece of wood and a hammer to bounce the brushes and gain a good enough contact to start many vehicles
You could check if the starter is now working as long as the earth to it is good
As usual many thanks for the input thus far.
As I suspected the solenoid was faulty. Local starter/alternator repairman confirmed this and sourced a good second user part recapped it. Bench tested it as working OK.
When I get a mo I will reinstall, and hopefully, that will be it for a while, fingers crossed.
As I suspected the solenoid was faulty. Local starter/alternator repairman confirmed this and sourced a good second user part recapped it. Bench tested it as working OK.
When I get a mo I will reinstall, and hopefully, that will be it for a while, fingers crossed.
BlueWedgy said:
As usual many thanks for the input thus far.
As I suspected the solenoid was faulty. Local starter/alternator repairman confirmed this and sourced a good second user part recapped it. Bench tested it as working OK.
When I get a mo I will reinstall, and hopefully, that will be it for a while, fingers crossed.
Do you mean there was a fault with the solenoid cap contacts and there was also something wrong with the solenoid coils ?As I suspected the solenoid was faulty. Local starter/alternator repairman confirmed this and sourced a good second user part recapped it. Bench tested it as working OK.
When I get a mo I will reinstall, and hopefully, that will be it for a while, fingers crossed.
The new cap was just to ensure that the starter contacts were in good order.
One of the coils in the solenoid was broken. A replacement with a new cap brought it back to life.
As both coils were not energised in the first instance, as I found, the plunger was not pulled in by the first coil, but would pull in if moved to the second coil.
One of the coils in the solenoid was broken. A replacement with a new cap brought it back to life.
As both coils were not energised in the first instance, as I found, the plunger was not pulled in by the first coil, but would pull in if moved to the second coil.
Ok then
Why I asked was because it's unusual for a solenoid coil to go open circuit, they have been known to burn out but this doesn't happen often as someone would have to keep the key in the crank position for a long time to burn one out or a short on the wiring could do it but the starter would be running in mesh if that happened
Nothing to say it wasn't a bad soldered joint at the motor contact terminal or terminal 50 though, both at the solenoid cap
Fingers crossed that the brushes and commutator are ok as they are often the cause of the problem
Why I asked was because it's unusual for a solenoid coil to go open circuit, they have been known to burn out but this doesn't happen often as someone would have to keep the key in the crank position for a long time to burn one out or a short on the wiring could do it but the starter would be running in mesh if that happened
Nothing to say it wasn't a bad soldered joint at the motor contact terminal or terminal 50 though, both at the solenoid cap
Fingers crossed that the brushes and commutator are ok as they are often the cause of the problem
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