New Car Advice, Pork.
Discussion
Righto, know there's a few of you in here who know a thing or 2 about your Porkers so i'd like to pick your brains.
I was looking at picking up a 944 for the Autumn run but doesn't look like the sale of the Mr2 and wotnot is going to go through right now. It would only have been a temporary thing until spring anyways when it would be traded in/sold to put towards the proper purchase.
As you probably know, i'm not adverse to playing with a car, unless it's perfect as is then chances are i will go at it with the spanners, a measuring tape and the angle grinder.
So i have quite a few ideas milling about in the old noggin and i'd like to run them past you lot.
1) 1st idea is to buy a 944 S2/Turbo or a 968. As they are, quite good cars but just not enough cylinders. As i understand it the torque tubes from the above can be made to fit the Audi ABZ 4.2 Engine. Would require a standalone and a bit of fab work, possibly pedal box etc etc but nothing beyond what we've done before. Circa 360bhp and i would imagine 1400kgs all said and done.
2) Next up, 3.2 SC/964 Coupé. I love the shape, even more so in SuperSport form but worried about rust, just how bad are they? 200bhp is simply not going to be enough so i'm thinking a later engine and box combo, how easy is a 993 gubbins swap?
3) 3.2/964 Targa with an LS swap. No idea why but there's something i love about the retro feel of the targa. They seem to be the black sheep of the family so wouldn't feel too bad about putting a yank tank into one. As i understand they are a fair bit heavier? Is the chassis flex that much more noticeable than the coup?
4) Cayman S, straight out the box, get in it and drive it constantly. Consider S/C when i get bored
5) Boxster S, as above.
6) 993 C2S, as above.
I'm not coming from a Nissan Micra but i am looking for a big step up in terms of driving pleasure and pace.
I certainly wouldn't want to buy anything that i would ruin the value of by modifying but i'm always happy to build something special and enjoy it for what it is whether i lose a few grand on it and chalk it up as cost of enjoyment.
The only other option at the minute is the Elise with a V6 but i really fancy some pork this time.
So what's your thoughts, experiences and anything else i should be considering?
Cheers,
Olie
I was looking at picking up a 944 for the Autumn run but doesn't look like the sale of the Mr2 and wotnot is going to go through right now. It would only have been a temporary thing until spring anyways when it would be traded in/sold to put towards the proper purchase.
As you probably know, i'm not adverse to playing with a car, unless it's perfect as is then chances are i will go at it with the spanners, a measuring tape and the angle grinder.
So i have quite a few ideas milling about in the old noggin and i'd like to run them past you lot.
1) 1st idea is to buy a 944 S2/Turbo or a 968. As they are, quite good cars but just not enough cylinders. As i understand it the torque tubes from the above can be made to fit the Audi ABZ 4.2 Engine. Would require a standalone and a bit of fab work, possibly pedal box etc etc but nothing beyond what we've done before. Circa 360bhp and i would imagine 1400kgs all said and done.
2) Next up, 3.2 SC/964 Coupé. I love the shape, even more so in SuperSport form but worried about rust, just how bad are they? 200bhp is simply not going to be enough so i'm thinking a later engine and box combo, how easy is a 993 gubbins swap?
3) 3.2/964 Targa with an LS swap. No idea why but there's something i love about the retro feel of the targa. They seem to be the black sheep of the family so wouldn't feel too bad about putting a yank tank into one. As i understand they are a fair bit heavier? Is the chassis flex that much more noticeable than the coup?
4) Cayman S, straight out the box, get in it and drive it constantly. Consider S/C when i get bored
5) Boxster S, as above.
6) 993 C2S, as above.
I'm not coming from a Nissan Micra but i am looking for a big step up in terms of driving pleasure and pace.
I certainly wouldn't want to buy anything that i would ruin the value of by modifying but i'm always happy to build something special and enjoy it for what it is whether i lose a few grand on it and chalk it up as cost of enjoyment.
The only other option at the minute is the Elise with a V6 but i really fancy some pork this time.
So what's your thoughts, experiences and anything else i should be considering?
Cheers,
Olie
What's your budget Oli?
A 993 S would be expensive to buy but hold it's money, may even increase but you couldn't modify it- the narrow body drives better though and you could do what you liked to it,
I know someone with a 930 carrera caged track car with 993 running gear, 300bhp weighs 900kg, it's been off the road a year, they may sell it.
Not a personal fan of 944/968 but the 944S2 is meant to be a great reliable bargain, 968s are still a bit dear in comparison.
All depends on dosh and desire ;-)
RSVP
A 993 S would be expensive to buy but hold it's money, may even increase but you couldn't modify it- the narrow body drives better though and you could do what you liked to it,
I know someone with a 930 carrera caged track car with 993 running gear, 300bhp weighs 900kg, it's been off the road a year, they may sell it.
Not a personal fan of 944/968 but the 944S2 is meant to be a great reliable bargain, 968s are still a bit dear in comparison.
All depends on dosh and desire ;-)
RSVP
964 coupe with a spot of forced induction - kompressor or turbo both possible if you want a rear engine thrill.
968 I would look out a CS and fit a turbo kit.
Both of these options could be on the road for half the price of a decent 993S.
If you are looking at spending 993S money this looks fun for about the same budget:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2124189.htm
For a real low budget you can do a lot with a 944 (V8 would fit)!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2194272.htm
Boxster S is a quality car but maybe not so easy to engine mod to big HP.
If you give us a budget I'm sure we can sniff around..
968 I would look out a CS and fit a turbo kit.
Both of these options could be on the road for half the price of a decent 993S.
If you are looking at spending 993S money this looks fun for about the same budget:
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2124189.htm
For a real low budget you can do a lot with a 944 (V8 would fit)!!
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2194272.htm
Boxster S is a quality car but maybe not so easy to engine mod to big HP.
If you give us a budget I'm sure we can sniff around..
Edited by 6C4GTS on Wednesday 3rd November 22:25
Edited by 6C4GTS on Wednesday 3rd November 22:33
Since your good with mechanics Oli, why not find yourself a tidy 944S2? Not sure if they come with turbo's though, but im sure you can modify it to your requirements for track use and road use 
http://pistonheads.com/sales/2217308.htm
http://pistonheads.com/sales/2217308.htm
Edited by SXi Lad on Thursday 4th November 00:01
OlberJ said:
2) Next up, 3.2 SC/964 Coupé. I love the shape, even more so in SuperSport form but worried about rust, just how bad are they? 200bhp is simply not going to be enough so i'm thinking a later engine and box combo, how easy is a 993 gubbins swap?
3) 3.2/964 Targa with an LS swap. No idea why but there's something i love about the retro feel of the targa. They seem to be the black sheep of the family so wouldn't feel too bad about putting a yank tank into one. As i understand they are a fair bit heavier? Is the chassis flex that much more noticeable than the coup?Olie
SC/Carrera 3.2/964 are not really directly comparable. 3) 3.2/964 Targa with an LS swap. No idea why but there's something i love about the retro feel of the targa. They seem to be the black sheep of the family so wouldn't feel too bad about putting a yank tank into one. As i understand they are a fair bit heavier? Is the chassis flex that much more noticeable than the coup?Olie
SC ('78-'83) is a 3.0L, Early ones are 180bhp, later 200 odd, about 1130kg. Carrera 3.2 ('84 to '89) is 231bhp, about 1180kg. 964 ('89 to '93)is 3.6L - 255bhp, 1330kg.
BTW, theres not a huge difference in straightline performance between the C3.2, 964 C2 and 993 in reality. All low to mid 5's to 60. The 964C2 and 993C2 are noticeably quicker to 100 (mid 12's) and mid range though, the 993 is about 10mph quicker top end than the 964C2, knocking on the door of about 170. The engines are also pretty different in detail as you progress through the years.
There also very different under the skin. SC/Carrera 3.2 is torsion bars suspension, 964 Coilovers all round, 993 coilovers at the front, mulilink rear. Sliding calipers on the 3.0/C3.2. 964/993 have 4 pot brembos all round. Bigger front calipers on the 993.
As for rust, the older you get the more likely it is! 964/993 has wheelarch liners which make a big difference to keeping the tinworm at bay. Well looked after 964/993 shouldn't have any major rust problems, but you need to know where to look.
Can't see the point in a V8 btw, the flat 6 is a big part of the appeal of the 911, and one of the main reasons 911 handle properly, is the very low centre of gravity of the engine configuration. Putting a big, high positioned V8 would ruin this completely, you'd also have to adapt the car to water cooling.
If your ever over Edinburgh way, feel free to PM me.
Edited by HAB on Thursday 4th November 01:02
Purely thinking of that in the over weight targa, as in it would be more of a point and squirt cruiser that i'd enjoy as such.
If i'm going for the coup though it will be done right, hence why i wouldn't want to modify one and ruin it. I see a targa (maybe wrongly) as a cheap 911 i can only improve.
What's your thoughts on this?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2219574.htm
If i could do the same swap on a 964 that would give a nice all rounder i think.
964 is my preferred shape.
If i'm going for the coup though it will be done right, hence why i wouldn't want to modify one and ruin it. I see a targa (maybe wrongly) as a cheap 911 i can only improve.
What's your thoughts on this?
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2219574.htm
If i could do the same swap on a 964 that would give a nice all rounder i think.
964 is my preferred shape.
The 964 & the early 993 are both 3.6 twin plug per cylinder, and are pretty similar both in spec & performance.
Later 993's are alos 3.6 but had Varioram (variable length intake manifold) with upped the hp to about 280.
The only aircooled 3.8's from the factory as standard, are the 964 Carrera RS 3.8 & the 993 Carrera RS. Lottery money for these two (for me, anyway!)
There are tuners out there that will bore the the standard 964/993 engine out to 3.8 but it ain't cheap.
Targa's aren't that much heavier than the Coupe, but the roof can leak, and sealing can be an issue i.e lots of wind noise. I quite like them though. Good bit cheaper usually, as well.
The 993 link you posted looks nice, but at over 200k miles, I'd be looking at a standard car with less miles for that money.
Later 993's are alos 3.6 but had Varioram (variable length intake manifold) with upped the hp to about 280.
The only aircooled 3.8's from the factory as standard, are the 964 Carrera RS 3.8 & the 993 Carrera RS. Lottery money for these two (for me, anyway!)
There are tuners out there that will bore the the standard 964/993 engine out to 3.8 but it ain't cheap.
Targa's aren't that much heavier than the Coupe, but the roof can leak, and sealing can be an issue i.e lots of wind noise. I quite like them though. Good bit cheaper usually, as well.
The 993 link you posted looks nice, but at over 200k miles, I'd be looking at a standard car with less miles for that money.
Edited by HAB on Thursday 4th November 01:31
Ok so if we say 964 C2, circa £14/15k for a sub 100k car.
What sort of options do i have with another £5k to spend on it?
I'm a mechanic by trade and have built quite a few engines in my time, admittedly no Pork yet but i'd happily build a 3.8 if i can get hold of the parts/have mine modified. Do you have a rough idea on what the parts alone cost?
I have read of SC'd 964's and due to their nature they don't really suit the engine, this i think could be overcome with a different style of SC. Could definitely do that for under £5k.
Any other model engines i should consider? Obviously still being air cooled would be a big bonus.
What sort of options do i have with another £5k to spend on it?
I'm a mechanic by trade and have built quite a few engines in my time, admittedly no Pork yet but i'd happily build a 3.8 if i can get hold of the parts/have mine modified. Do you have a rough idea on what the parts alone cost?
I have read of SC'd 964's and due to their nature they don't really suit the engine, this i think could be overcome with a different style of SC. Could definitely do that for under £5k.
Any other model engines i should consider? Obviously still being air cooled would be a big bonus.
You should get a half decent sub 100k manual 964C2 coupe for 15k. The problem is finding one! There's very few nowadays in the classifieds, lots of C4's, C2 Targa/Convertibles and Tiptronics, but manual RHD C2 coupes are thin on the ground. Seems people are hanging on to them. I wouldn't be too worried about buying one over 100k, as long as the history stacks up.
I got pretty lucky when I bought mine, as it already had an LSD, factory sports exhaust, sports seats etc. Check my profile blog for a rough breakdown of upgrade/mods costs on the 964. I would think you'd be doing most of the work yourself (as do I), so you should get a fair idea.
I got pretty lucky when I bought mine, as it already had an LSD, factory sports exhaust, sports seats etc. Check my profile blog for a rough breakdown of upgrade/mods costs on the 964. I would think you'd be doing most of the work yourself (as do I), so you should get a fair idea.
Edited by HAB on Thursday 4th November 02:11
Oli - V8 option was only for front engined cars!
A 964 will take a kompressor if you dont like a turbo and who does!! and if you've got two turbos you're obviously a tosser!
and don't even ask if you fitted two bigger turbos!
Seriously though..
If you put a post on the Porsche page about boring out and engine mods you'll get swamped but look for Hartech and the Autofarm guys or PM Hartech.
There are lots of 964RS copies (suspension etc) out there but a RS copy with a wee supercharger done well would be a fine thing indeed!!
A 964 will take a kompressor if you dont like a turbo and who does!! and if you've got two turbos you're obviously a tosser!
and don't even ask if you fitted two bigger turbos!Seriously though..
If you put a post on the Porsche page about boring out and engine mods you'll get swamped but look for Hartech and the Autofarm guys or PM Hartech.
There are lots of 964RS copies (suspension etc) out there but a RS copy with a wee supercharger done well would be a fine thing indeed!!
Olie, that link is nice but way way way overpriced, he's dreaming at that age and mileage, regardless of what's been spent!
When I wanted my first 911 I was looking at a 964 due to price, that was over ten yrs ago and they've stayed the exact same price since!
I managed to get a little extra and bought a 993, which had a lot of advantages for me but would be nullified by your mechanical skills!
Supercharging air-cooled pork is the easiest way to get good power and worth considering, I'm sure there's loads you could do though. Weight saving is important unless you've got massive power, anyway I'm seeing my specialist today about my calliper so I'll ask what he's doing with his road/race/track car, basically it's an old B plate RS lookalike with 993 engine etc, said it was a mistake because the modern engine meant it had to run in modern modified class so wasn't as quick as the new stuff!
Think you'll love any air cooled 911 you go for because they're so quirky........ I'd scratch that itch before you look at the ladies versions (boxster/camen) ;-)
When I wanted my first 911 I was looking at a 964 due to price, that was over ten yrs ago and they've stayed the exact same price since!
I managed to get a little extra and bought a 993, which had a lot of advantages for me but would be nullified by your mechanical skills!
Supercharging air-cooled pork is the easiest way to get good power and worth considering, I'm sure there's loads you could do though. Weight saving is important unless you've got massive power, anyway I'm seeing my specialist today about my calliper so I'll ask what he's doing with his road/race/track car, basically it's an old B plate RS lookalike with 993 engine etc, said it was a mistake because the modern engine meant it had to run in modern modified class so wasn't as quick as the new stuff!
Think you'll love any air cooled 911 you go for because they're so quirky........ I'd scratch that itch before you look at the ladies versions (boxster/camen) ;-)
Just read that back....... Waits in anticipation of the specialist calliper jokes flooding in from Barry!!!
I resisted the temptation to congratulate you on your subtle avoidance of a 996 discussion Olie, but as a man of taste it's obvious you could never warm to those funny headlights!
I resisted the temptation to congratulate you on your subtle avoidance of a 996 discussion Olie, but as a man of taste it's obvious you could never warm to those funny headlights!
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