Practicing RWD control in Scotland
Discussion
Folks, I'm genuinely looking for some advice here (thought about posting this in the trackday forum but it's more "Scottish" than that!).
I've just bought myself my first RWD car after spending the last 12 years driving increasingly-powerful FWDs. This is the first time I've ever driven a RWD car. And to put it mildly, it's scaring the sh*t out of me at the moment - I just haven't got any confidence in the car's abilities, and am constantly worried about what the back end will do if I corner faster than my current granny-speed. I don't push it that hard on the road anyway (not the place for it), but I'm really struggling to find the confidence to out-corner a Citroen C1 at the moment. I think I under-estimated the difference between FWD and RWD cars, but am keen to do something about it...
I've got no intentions of taking up trackdaying, but I wondered if a novice trackday would be a good idea to let me play around with the car and find out safely how it behaves and handles. Not even sure if such a thing exists at KH (and there's not a chance in hell I'd go near a Speed Sunday - SIDC days that I've spectated and pax'd at appear far better). Personally I'd be worried about getting in the way at any trackday and also potentially stuffing the car off the circuit, so maybe not the best option?
I think what would do me good would be a day spent playing around on an airfield with loads of runoff and nothing to hit. And thoughts? Does anywhere in Scotland cater for the likes of this? Or are there any airfields with a load of space that you can get access to without causing problems? I'm trying to write this and not come across as some empty-carpark-seeking-eijit
Any advice would be great. I'd be happy to travel or spend a bit of £££ because there's no point me owning this car if I don't have the confidence to drive it properly.
Cheers,
Ally
I've just bought myself my first RWD car after spending the last 12 years driving increasingly-powerful FWDs. This is the first time I've ever driven a RWD car. And to put it mildly, it's scaring the sh*t out of me at the moment - I just haven't got any confidence in the car's abilities, and am constantly worried about what the back end will do if I corner faster than my current granny-speed. I don't push it that hard on the road anyway (not the place for it), but I'm really struggling to find the confidence to out-corner a Citroen C1 at the moment. I think I under-estimated the difference between FWD and RWD cars, but am keen to do something about it...
I've got no intentions of taking up trackdaying, but I wondered if a novice trackday would be a good idea to let me play around with the car and find out safely how it behaves and handles. Not even sure if such a thing exists at KH (and there's not a chance in hell I'd go near a Speed Sunday - SIDC days that I've spectated and pax'd at appear far better). Personally I'd be worried about getting in the way at any trackday and also potentially stuffing the car off the circuit, so maybe not the best option?
I think what would do me good would be a day spent playing around on an airfield with loads of runoff and nothing to hit. And thoughts? Does anywhere in Scotland cater for the likes of this? Or are there any airfields with a load of space that you can get access to without causing problems? I'm trying to write this and not come across as some empty-carpark-seeking-eijit
Any advice would be great. I'd be happy to travel or spend a bit of £££ because there's no point me owning this car if I don't have the confidence to drive it properly.
Cheers,
Ally
Cheers folks.
That had been a thought of mine too but I've looked at the general skin plan thing they offer and thought it might be too general - I'll maybe try and speak to them and see if they'd do a more RWD-orientated session for me? Worth asking.
But I think the biggest problem might be finding an area of tarmac where I could have a play afterwards and try stuff in my own car. I'm aware every car's different (even if the principles of RWD control are the same in any car). Any suggestions of locations welcomed (although if you don't want to say on the forum e-mail me at a11yATymailDOTcom!). It'd just be my luck to find a big empty carpark, have a little play and attract the blue flashy lights... That's why I was hoping there might be an unknown (to me) area of tarmac or airfield I could have a practice on.
OlberJ - yep, hopefully join in a hoon or two in future for a bit of this
or this 
That had been a thought of mine too but I've looked at the general skin plan thing they offer and thought it might be too general - I'll maybe try and speak to them and see if they'd do a more RWD-orientated session for me? Worth asking.
But I think the biggest problem might be finding an area of tarmac where I could have a play afterwards and try stuff in my own car. I'm aware every car's different (even if the principles of RWD control are the same in any car). Any suggestions of locations welcomed (although if you don't want to say on the forum e-mail me at a11yATymailDOTcom!). It'd just be my luck to find a big empty carpark, have a little play and attract the blue flashy lights... That's why I was hoping there might be an unknown (to me) area of tarmac or airfield I could have a practice on.
OlberJ - yep, hopefully join in a hoon or two in future for a bit of this
or this Best one in Scotland not open to public but does car club visits is Tulliallan Police training school
Was getting cocky just controlling front wheel drive breakaway when instructor brought me down to earth with a bang by changing car to rear wheel mode without telling me
Scary and weird!
Was getting cocky just controlling front wheel drive breakaway when instructor brought me down to earth with a bang by changing car to rear wheel mode without telling me
Scary and weird!
whilst some will disaprove, you will learn a lot by exploring the limits of your car on a deserted wet roundabout.
The roads in their current state make for the perfect surface in which to explore oversteer safely. After a while, hanging the tail out will become second nature.
Alternatively, speak to Fugster on here. Some say the man hasn't travelled in a straight line since 1987, or something
Disclaimer: I do not condone or promote driving like this in anyway whatsoever on a public road and accpet no liability for any loss or injury caused as a result.
The roads in their current state make for the perfect surface in which to explore oversteer safely. After a while, hanging the tail out will become second nature.
Alternatively, speak to Fugster on here. Some say the man hasn't travelled in a straight line since 1987, or something
Disclaimer: I do not condone or promote driving like this in anyway whatsoever on a public road and accpet no liability for any loss or injury caused as a result.
This all really depends on what car you are driving. Can you share?
I have been use to RWD since i turned 17 nearly 13 years ago. Its great fun but RWD cars can handle very differently. Supsension set ups and what like can all make a difference. Anyway, if its a Z3M, you are going to have a blast. I drove that for 12,000 doing do-nuts all the way down the road. The Cobra I never messed about with.
I have been use to RWD since i turned 17 nearly 13 years ago. Its great fun but RWD cars can handle very differently. Supsension set ups and what like can all make a difference. Anyway, if its a Z3M, you are going to have a blast. I drove that for 12,000 doing do-nuts all the way down the road. The Cobra I never messed about with.
Mattymouse33 - it’s a 3.0 Z4 roadster. A bit milder than a ZM Coupe which I did consider for a bit but dismissed as being over my budget for a decent one. It’s a standard car but I’ll soon be fitting Eibach springs to replace my 2 snapped rear springs it currently has (common issue), swapping some of the suspension bushes for poly ones, and getting a full alignment set up. Oh, and binning the horrific run-flats for proper tyres. I’m not sure how “friendly” or “unfriendly” the Z4’s handling is supposed to be.
All of my previous cars were all FWD with the last few being hot hatches (a Clio 172 > Civic Type R > Ibiza Cupra TDI) so this is complete change in approach. I’ve also been driving for 13 years since turning 17, but taken a totally different path in cars to you I guess.
S2red – that sounds interesting about car club visits to Tulliallan. Do you know any more about that, or where I can get more info? A club visit (or even a PH visit?) would be a great idea IMO.
My concern about practicing on roundabouts is about getting caught! Or c0cking it up and ending up on top of a kerb with a snapped alloy or worse. I can think of a couple of fairly wide but quiet roundabouts near me that might be suitable. That’s if I decided to behave like that on the road which, being a responsible driver, of course I wouldn’t dream of…
All of my previous cars were all FWD with the last few being hot hatches (a Clio 172 > Civic Type R > Ibiza Cupra TDI) so this is complete change in approach. I’ve also been driving for 13 years since turning 17, but taken a totally different path in cars to you I guess.
S2red – that sounds interesting about car club visits to Tulliallan. Do you know any more about that, or where I can get more info? A club visit (or even a PH visit?) would be a great idea IMO.
My concern about practicing on roundabouts is about getting caught! Or c0cking it up and ending up on top of a kerb with a snapped alloy or worse. I can think of a couple of fairly wide but quiet roundabouts near me that might be suitable. That’s if I decided to behave like that on the road which, being a responsible driver, of course I wouldn’t dream of…
IMO there is no substitute for proper instruction in a safe environment.
Andrew Walsh used to run courses at Crail but unfortunately is now only at North Weald in Essex.
www.carlimits.com
It's a fair old treck but many of my friends and I have done it and as you say it's well worth it to get the most fun and enjoyment from your car (safely) - you may even get a reduction on your car insurance.
A course like this teaches you to communicate with the car - it'll tell you what it's going to do, you just need to understand the signals and have the knowledge and practice to react accordingly. I can't stress enough how important the practice part is!
There are lots of other instructer courses in England (Don Palmer etc) but I only have experience of Andy. I don't know of any in Scotland...
Andrew Walsh used to run courses at Crail but unfortunately is now only at North Weald in Essex.
www.carlimits.com
It's a fair old treck but many of my friends and I have done it and as you say it's well worth it to get the most fun and enjoyment from your car (safely) - you may even get a reduction on your car insurance.
A course like this teaches you to communicate with the car - it'll tell you what it's going to do, you just need to understand the signals and have the knowledge and practice to react accordingly. I can't stress enough how important the practice part is!
There are lots of other instructer courses in England (Don Palmer etc) but I only have experience of Andy. I don't know of any in Scotland...
alicrozier said:
IMO there is no substitute for proper instruction in a safe environment.
Thanks for the info.Agree with you that the best place for this type of hooning around is off the roads! I’ve heard of the Walshy days before – think it might’ve been when via XV220.org when I was considering buying one (too hardcore for me as a daily driver), but I remember a lot of folk on there rated him very highly. Just a shame it’s so far away. I might have a look at any (if there are any) north of the Border or at least closer to here.
Anyone watched Andrew Walsh’s DVD? (available via his website above). Might be worth a punt at <£15.
If anyone knows anything more about car courses at RAF Edzell post up – that’s not far for me at all.
MrCippo said:
Ally, im planning to buy the same z4 3.0l next weekend, any advices of things to look for? Car has 50k on the clock, 53 plate for 12k.
Cheers
Good choice Cheers
. Best advice I can give is to get yourself registered on www.z4-forum.com – brilliant source of info and a genuine bunch of nice folk too (well, from what I’ve observed so far). I’m really not an expert on the car and you’ll get better advice on there than from me! Loads of info on common problems, etc. but the main ones to look out for are snapped rear springs (very common issue – I’m going for Eibach springs purely to get away from BMW springs), surface corrosion on the 5-spoke “Composite Star 108” style split-rim 18” alloys, and really just to ensure the roof mechanism works perfectly. Got to be honest and say that price seems a little high for the age and miles on the car. Dealership or private? For comparison, my 54-plate on 18.5k miles cost me £10.4k two weeks ago although I’m spending £150 on springs and £350 on tyres to get it perfect. That was a private purchase via PH.
a11y_m said:
MrCippo said:
Ally, im planning to buy the same z4 3.0l next weekend, any advices of things to look for? Car has 50k on the clock, 53 plate for 12k.
Cheers
Good choice Cheers
. Best advice I can give is to get yourself registered on www.z4-forum.com – brilliant source of info and a genuine bunch of nice folk too (well, from what I’ve observed so far). I’m really not an expert on the car and you’ll get better advice on there than from me! Loads of info on common problems, etc. but the main ones to look out for are snapped rear springs (very common issue – I’m going for Eibach springs purely to get away from BMW springs), surface corrosion on the 5-spoke “Composite Star 108” style split-rim 18” alloys, and really just to ensure the roof mechanism works perfectly. Got to be honest and say that price seems a little high for the age and miles on the car. Dealership or private? For comparison, my 54-plate on 18.5k miles cost me £10.4k two weeks ago although I’m spending £150 on springs and £350 on tyres to get it perfect. That was a private purchase via PH.
a11y_m said:
If anyone knows anything more about car courses at RAF Edzell post up – that’s not far for me at all.
I remember being out for a run with some of the socttish elises guys when I had my VXT and I'm sure one of them said he'd done a car control course at Edzell. Having said that, I don't think the base is even there anymore - isn't it a housing estate now?!
Anyway, my advice would be to build up to it slowly. As some have suggested, practice first on quiet roundabouts and low-speed well-sighted corners on quiet back roads. With your TC off!
Try entering a corner a few times at low speeds, getting on the power harder each time until you feel the back starting to get into action, you'll quickly find how it starts to behave as you get close to the limit and should find your reactions to it will come reasonably naturally. Don't aim for high entry speeds or worry too much about nailing the line perfectly, just get to the point where you can feel the car starting to oversteer and it will increase your confidence greatly.
A Knockhill instruction session in your own car will only have a limited number of cars on track too and wuill help you enormously. You can go back as often as you like and request the same instructor to get the continuity you will need. IIRC, it's only £100 for 25 or 30 laps with the instructor. I did 2 or 3 of these when I first got my VX and they really helped.
Edited by jollygreen on Tuesday 6th January 15:58
schnell said:
whilst some will disaprove, you will learn a lot by exploring the limits of your car on a deserted wet roundabout.
The roads in their current state make for the perfect surface in which to explore oversteer safely. After a while, hanging the tail out will become second nature.
Alternatively, speak to Fugster on here. Some say the man hasn't travelled in a straight line since 1987, or something
Disclaimer: I do not condone or promote driving like this in anyway whatsoever on a public road and accpet no liability for any loss or injury caused as a result.
The roads in their current state make for the perfect surface in which to explore oversteer safely. After a while, hanging the tail out will become second nature.
Alternatively, speak to Fugster on here. Some say the man hasn't travelled in a straight line since 1987, or something
Disclaimer: I do not condone or promote driving like this in anyway whatsoever on a public road and accpet no liability for any loss or injury caused as a result.
Sometimes I drive in a straight line, this morning for example, 400 yards and no oversteeryness!! Fugster said:
schnell said:
whilst some will disaprove, you will learn a lot by exploring the limits of your car on a deserted wet roundabout.
The roads in their current state make for the perfect surface in which to explore oversteer safely. After a while, hanging the tail out will become second nature.
Alternatively, speak to Fugster on here. Some say the man hasn't travelled in a straight line since 1987, or something
Disclaimer: I do not condone or promote driving like this in anyway whatsoever on a public road and accpet no liability for any loss or injury caused as a result.
The roads in their current state make for the perfect surface in which to explore oversteer safely. After a while, hanging the tail out will become second nature.
Alternatively, speak to Fugster on here. Some say the man hasn't travelled in a straight line since 1987, or something
Disclaimer: I do not condone or promote driving like this in anyway whatsoever on a public road and accpet no liability for any loss or injury caused as a result.
Sometimes I drive in a straight line, this morning for example, 400 yards and no oversteeryness!! I took my Z4 for a full-day driving course at Knochkill last year. I think it was called Driving Mastery or something like that?
Anyway, it consisted of (all in my own car) a morning out on the road with retired police instructor, then 25 laps of the track under tuition, and a play about on the skidpan. I also asked if I could "just drive faster and faster in a circle for a wee bit to see what happens", lol, and I was taken to a big bit of tarmac and allowed to play around with DSC on and off, again under tuition.
I've no experience with any other courses, but like you, my aim was to get a feel for what rwd is like nearer the limit, and I definitely got that. The on-road part of the course is far from dull too, all about making good, safe progress, and even a few cool overtakes on single carriageway NSL.
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