A9 speed camera trap
Discussion
AAAAHhhhhh. Cynical money making speed camera policies. Beat this one if you can!
A few weeks ago I spotted a parked speed camera van whilst driving south from Inverness to Perth along the A9 in the Highlands.
The van was on the other side of the road with the camera therefore facing oncoming traffic rather than at me. This also means that the yellow and red high visibility markings were not in view but I had noticed it was a speed camera van anyway. Always careful about these things I checked to make sure that I was doing under 60mph as I passed the van, which I was; this even though the van was parked on the other side of the road facing the other way.
The van parked just where the southbound carriageway changes from a single to dual lane (in the direction I was travelling), with the opposite lane still remaining single.
This section of dual lane has recently been added to the road to provide a stretch where slower traffic can be overtaken safely. Those of you know the A9 will be aware that is very dangerous road with numerous deaths every year so the addition of this overtaking lane was a very much welcomed by all.
When I got on to the dual section of the road, with the camera van now behind me but with me in its sights (if it the camera were to be pointing across the road rather than at oncoming traffic) I proceeded to overtake a white lorry that had I had been behind for some time.
Five days later I got a letter from Police saying that I had been caught speeding at the above described section of road at the exact time I was travelling down it.
Puzzled and pissed off I decided to contact a solicitor to see how I could appeal against this since I knew that I had passed the camera at 55mph and had only accelerated up to and slightly above 70mph when I was on the dual carriage way.
Here is what I found out:-
First these vans often point their camera at passing traffic as it travels away from the van on the other side of the road (so that the warning markings are not visible to the targeted traffic) and second, the speed limit is still 60mph on a dual carriage way unless BOTH directions are dual and there is a physical barrier between the two directions of traffic.
Call me naive about the cynical use of speed cameras to raise cash, and even call me stupid for not knowing this subtlety of the highway code BUT here is what really winds me up:-
The whole set up was designed to nail people for simply waiting to overtake safely at the newly added overtaking lane, content in the knowledge that most motorists would A). not see the camera and B). even if they did, would not know that they were still in a 60 zone rather than 70.
So they put in an overtaking lane to make overtaking safer and then cynically use it to raise cash from speeding fines handed out to people who are doing their best to make the road safer by using it for its intended purpose.
I know life is not fair but this is just plain wrong!
A few weeks ago I spotted a parked speed camera van whilst driving south from Inverness to Perth along the A9 in the Highlands.
The van was on the other side of the road with the camera therefore facing oncoming traffic rather than at me. This also means that the yellow and red high visibility markings were not in view but I had noticed it was a speed camera van anyway. Always careful about these things I checked to make sure that I was doing under 60mph as I passed the van, which I was; this even though the van was parked on the other side of the road facing the other way.
The van parked just where the southbound carriageway changes from a single to dual lane (in the direction I was travelling), with the opposite lane still remaining single.
This section of dual lane has recently been added to the road to provide a stretch where slower traffic can be overtaken safely. Those of you know the A9 will be aware that is very dangerous road with numerous deaths every year so the addition of this overtaking lane was a very much welcomed by all.
When I got on to the dual section of the road, with the camera van now behind me but with me in its sights (if it the camera were to be pointing across the road rather than at oncoming traffic) I proceeded to overtake a white lorry that had I had been behind for some time.
Five days later I got a letter from Police saying that I had been caught speeding at the above described section of road at the exact time I was travelling down it.
Puzzled and pissed off I decided to contact a solicitor to see how I could appeal against this since I knew that I had passed the camera at 55mph and had only accelerated up to and slightly above 70mph when I was on the dual carriage way.
Here is what I found out:-
First these vans often point their camera at passing traffic as it travels away from the van on the other side of the road (so that the warning markings are not visible to the targeted traffic) and second, the speed limit is still 60mph on a dual carriage way unless BOTH directions are dual and there is a physical barrier between the two directions of traffic.
Call me naive about the cynical use of speed cameras to raise cash, and even call me stupid for not knowing this subtlety of the highway code BUT here is what really winds me up:-
The whole set up was designed to nail people for simply waiting to overtake safely at the newly added overtaking lane, content in the knowledge that most motorists would A). not see the camera and B). even if they did, would not know that they were still in a 60 zone rather than 70.
So they put in an overtaking lane to make overtaking safer and then cynically use it to raise cash from speeding fines handed out to people who are doing their best to make the road safer by using it for its intended purpose.
I know life is not fair but this is just plain wrong!
I'm sure a good lawyer would get you off that, especially as you couldn't see the chevrons on the van. Something that happened to me that was fairly sneaky was getting caught in Aberdeen with my US plates still on my car. It was a genuine mistake as I was of the opinion that you could drive for up to 6 months with the US plates. But, rather than some minor charge like 'failure to display proper number plate' (or whatever the charge is), they charged me with 'fraudulent use of a number plate'! To me, that would require evidence (or at least the suspicion) that I had the wrong number plate deliberately for other criminal purposes. Anyway, the sneaking bit came from the PF who sent me a latter saying that they wouldn't go ahead with the charge if I paid £100. Not even a fine as such, just an unspecified fee of some sort! Presumably they know full well that it would be far cheaper to pay the £100 than have to hire a lawyer to challenge the initial charge in court (i.e., even though I'd most likely win that I'd still have to shell out more than £100). Abuse of the legal system I'd say.
unfortunately it happens quite a lot especially on the a96 too. The road you are on about is only a crawler lane and not dual carriage-way hence why they can do you for over 60 
Its poor show imho and has to affect the way people respect/see the police eg if you were done as mentioned above would you be so quick to help them in their enquires the week after?
Its poor show imho and has to affect the way people respect/see the police eg if you were done as mentioned above would you be so quick to help them in their enquires the week after?
ViperScot said:
Anyway, the sneaking bit came from the PF who sent me a latter saying that they wouldn't go ahead with the charge if I paid £100. Not even a fine as such, just an unspecified fee of some sort! Presumably they know full well that it would be far cheaper to pay the £100 than have to hire a lawyer to challenge the initial charge in court (i.e., even though I'd most likely win that I'd still have to shell out more than £100). Abuse of the legal system I'd say.
The Criminal Justice System is more criminal than just; it requires complete replacement.Bad luck, but you don't know the Highway Code and you were speeding. What do you expect? I rarely post on these types of topic, but there's no point in complaining about being caught for breaking the law - ignorance is no defence. I got three points a few years ago for doing 70 on a dual carriageway which had the speed limit reduced to 50 the day before - a road I know well. But hey ho - I didn't notice the 50 signs, and I was duly pulled by the BiB who even said it was bad luck. Still felt like an idiot though 
northo said:
Bad luck, but you don't know the Highway Code and you were speeding. What do you expect? I rarely post on these types of topic, but there's no point in complaining about being caught for breaking the law - ignorance is no defence. I got three points a few years ago for doing 70 on a dual carriageway which had the speed limit reduced to 50 the day before - a road I know well. But hey ho - I didn't notice the 50 signs, and I was duly pulled by the BiB who even said it was bad luck. Still felt like an idiot though
Sorry Northo, totally disagree.This is peoples livelyhoods we are talking about, BUT how Hey Ho would you have felt if you were on nine points and had got caught.. you would now be facing a six month ban possible loss of employment a fine and perhaps struggle to keep a roof above the famlies head...
Really the police have to start regaining the trust and respect of the motorist. The vast majority get DONE for doing very little wrong,is a few mph over the limit really that bad in a modern car !!!. I am all for catching the crazy drivers at crazy speeds but lets start having some good old fashioned policing.. I think in the case of your CRIME a good talking to from the police about the new speed limits would have been far better than a fine and three points christ even the police said you had been unlucky.
But I guess if people like you welcome and are happy to see this kind of policing then I'm sure it will continue to effect everyday honest motorists.
Lets hope you dont find yourself being unluck a few more times.
G20RG B said:
Stuff
Really?!? It is quite easy to stay within the speed limits, and if you think it isn't then maybe you should have a slower car. People will always speed, because they can. 20 mph is more than a few mph over the limit, it is nearly 50% more than the limit, so 3 points seems fair.If folk are driving round on 9 points exceeding the speed limit, then more fool them. It is not a God given right to drive a car, and that is part of the problem, people think they can do what ever they want. The law is set, it is a simple line, cross it and you'll have to deal with the concequences.
It really grinds my gears that folk go around trying to get away with things, then bleat when they are caught, be it speeding, parking fines or illegally spaced number plates.
Edited by onlynik on Thursday 16th October 13:07
GetCarter said:
onlynik said:
G20RG B said:
Stuff
I really grinds my gears that folk go around trying to get away with things, ...... illegally spaced number plates.Edited by GetCarter on Thursday 16th October 12:15
If people want to do it, fine, but it is when they get caught, and are annoyed that the BiB have stopped them or that it has failed an MOT, and protest their innocence, that's what gets me. Ignorance is not an excuse.
I'm with the OP on this one though, and gave him a link to a good lawyer, when he posted this topic in GG.
Edited by onlynik on Thursday 16th October 13:12
onlynik said:
It is not a God given right to drive a car, and that is part of the problem, people think they can do what ever they want. The law is set, it is a simple line, cross it and you'll have to deal with the concequences.
It's not a god given right for Parliament to have sovereignty.The law may be set, but it's an ass more often than not.
After a few days of reflection I think can better explain the issues I have here.
In a nutshell I am not so much “bleating” about getting a speeding ticket, as making a point about the how and where speed cameras should be deployed (if we have to have them at all).
If the real intention of these camera vans is to improve the safety of the roads (rather than simply as cash generators) then there are far better places to position them than at the beginning of a specifically designed, straight, dry and relatively quiet section of overtaking lane.
My understanding is that that whole point of putting in these overtaking lanes was to provide drivers with safe areas to pass slower traffic rather than have them overtake in other far more dangerous places. Having built these overtaking lanes it strikes me as somewhat cynical to then target drivers for using them their intended purpose – ie to overtake.
And yes, in the real world it is sometimes safer to exceed the speed limit briefly when overtaking than stick rigidly to the speed limit and therefore overtake dangerously.
So, put the cameras somewhere where they are needed for safety reasons rather than for financial gain.
No doubt some of you will continue to say that driving a well maintained modern car at over 60 miles an hour on a clear day, on a dual lane stretch of straight, dry road is only slightly less dangerous than detonating a nuclear missile over a major city. You are of course entitled to your opinions. Out of interest do you also keep the plastic wrappers on the seats of your new car for three years?
I would make this serious point though:-
Those people who insist on overtaking a 55mph vehicle by themselves driving at 59mph (thereby using up the entire overtaking lane to get past) should re-appraise their views of what might constitute, or crucially cause, dangerous driving.
The most dangerous driving I see is invariably at the end of an overtaking lane when a queue of traffic has been held up by one stubborn or oblivious driver who has taken up the entire outside lane of a relatively short section of dual carriageway whilst barely inching past fractionally slower moving traffic.
He or she may feel they have made the road a safer place by preventing other drivers from overtaking at perhaps slightly over the speed limit. But just look at the crazy driving that subsequently results!
The fact that other drivers try to overtake very dangerously in the remaining few yards of dual carriageway is one of my absolute pet hates and I would support any fines or convictions that result from this sort of behaviour.
However, let’s be clear about this. If people used the overtaking lanes sensibly and overtook quickly and safely this type of driving would be far less common. However, I guess the powers that be clearly don’t share this view.
And for what it is worth, the 60mph speed limit was introduced in 1977 (down from a 70mph limit set in 1965 I think) when most cars had drum brakes, old fashioned tyres and terrible suspension. Still relevant today? I suggest not, but then I don’t have plastic covers on my car seats.
In a nutshell I am not so much “bleating” about getting a speeding ticket, as making a point about the how and where speed cameras should be deployed (if we have to have them at all).
If the real intention of these camera vans is to improve the safety of the roads (rather than simply as cash generators) then there are far better places to position them than at the beginning of a specifically designed, straight, dry and relatively quiet section of overtaking lane.
My understanding is that that whole point of putting in these overtaking lanes was to provide drivers with safe areas to pass slower traffic rather than have them overtake in other far more dangerous places. Having built these overtaking lanes it strikes me as somewhat cynical to then target drivers for using them their intended purpose – ie to overtake.
And yes, in the real world it is sometimes safer to exceed the speed limit briefly when overtaking than stick rigidly to the speed limit and therefore overtake dangerously.
So, put the cameras somewhere where they are needed for safety reasons rather than for financial gain.
No doubt some of you will continue to say that driving a well maintained modern car at over 60 miles an hour on a clear day, on a dual lane stretch of straight, dry road is only slightly less dangerous than detonating a nuclear missile over a major city. You are of course entitled to your opinions. Out of interest do you also keep the plastic wrappers on the seats of your new car for three years?
I would make this serious point though:-
Those people who insist on overtaking a 55mph vehicle by themselves driving at 59mph (thereby using up the entire overtaking lane to get past) should re-appraise their views of what might constitute, or crucially cause, dangerous driving.
The most dangerous driving I see is invariably at the end of an overtaking lane when a queue of traffic has been held up by one stubborn or oblivious driver who has taken up the entire outside lane of a relatively short section of dual carriageway whilst barely inching past fractionally slower moving traffic.
He or she may feel they have made the road a safer place by preventing other drivers from overtaking at perhaps slightly over the speed limit. But just look at the crazy driving that subsequently results!
The fact that other drivers try to overtake very dangerously in the remaining few yards of dual carriageway is one of my absolute pet hates and I would support any fines or convictions that result from this sort of behaviour.
However, let’s be clear about this. If people used the overtaking lanes sensibly and overtook quickly and safely this type of driving would be far less common. However, I guess the powers that be clearly don’t share this view.
And for what it is worth, the 60mph speed limit was introduced in 1977 (down from a 70mph limit set in 1965 I think) when most cars had drum brakes, old fashioned tyres and terrible suspension. Still relevant today? I suggest not, but then I don’t have plastic covers on my car seats.
Ollyd said:
A lot
As I said before, I'm with you on this situation. The A9 and A96 are horrid roads to drive on, you get stuck behind someone doing 35-40 for ages. Sadly the road is dangerous, and trying to make it safer is a great idea, however, I'm opposed to Speed Camera's and I'm sure if there had been a traffic unit there, they wouldn't have bothered with you.onlynik said:
G20RG B said:
Stuff
Really?!? It is quite easy to stay within the speed limits, and if you think it isn't then maybe you should have a slower car. People will always speed, because they can. 20 mph is more than a few mph over the limit, it is nearly 50% more than the limit, so 3 points seems fair.If folk are driving round on 9 points exceeding the speed limit, then more fool them. It is not a God given right to drive a car, and that is part of the problem, people think they can do what ever they want. The law is set, it is a simple line, cross it and you'll have to deal with the concequences.
It really grinds my gears that folk go around trying to get away with things, then bleat when they are caught, be it speeding, parking fines or illegally spaced number plates.
Edited by onlynik on Thursday 16th October 13:07
I am not saying I never speed, but when caught am happy to accept the consequences. As regards position of speed cameras, next people will be saying it unfair to position them on roads.
BASE jumping is illegal in Scotland too - totally ridiculous, but if caught, I won't complain that it was unfair that an officer of the law happened to be looking up at the time.
I am sure they are used to generate revenue, but I am sure we will all miss Gatso's and vans when they replace them with SPECS on our lovely A-roads.
The road referred to in the OP is NOT a dual carriageway & the speed limit is 60mph.
The fact there is an overtaking lane doesn't make it a dual carriageway - a DC is a a stretch of road where opposing traffic is separated by a central reservation.
So accelerating up to just over 70 .... makes it a 'fair cop' unfortunately.
The fact there is an overtaking lane doesn't make it a dual carriageway - a DC is a a stretch of road where opposing traffic is separated by a central reservation.
So accelerating up to just over 70 .... makes it a 'fair cop' unfortunately.
Spitfire2 said:
The road referred to in the OP is NOT a dual carriageway & the speed limit is 60mph.
The fact there is an overtaking lane doesn't make it a dual carriageway - a DC is a a stretch of road where opposing traffic is separated by a central reservation.
So accelerating up to just over 70 .... makes it a 'fair cop' unfortunately.
Oh feck....really The fact there is an overtaking lane doesn't make it a dual carriageway - a DC is a a stretch of road where opposing traffic is separated by a central reservation.
So accelerating up to just over 70 .... makes it a 'fair cop' unfortunately.
Must remember that the next time
There are some fundemental points here which should be addressed with your MP and MSP.
It is now less of a crime to go and assault someone or commit most minor crimes than to speed! The new fixed penalty system gives lower fixed fines for most 'real crimes' as opposed to the 'offence' of speeding and no points. Both are previous convictions.
Saftey vans are not for saftey. They only deal with speeders not reckless or bad driving. Why is that? speed is one facet in 'saftey' but not the only one. It is the easiest to catch hence the vans.
Is the A9 more unsafe becasue of people not driving properly? The ones who would rather you crashed head on into another car than allow you to pull in after ovrtaking. Isnt that dangerous driving?
I agree speed limits are set by law and we should all obey the law. I am a litigation lawyer with 28 years experince and whilst i have been caught speeding a lot, i still uphold that view.
Arbitary or unjust laws or laws to heavily enforced or badly enforced provoke distrust at the system of laws and mistrust of the police who are fundemental to our safe society.
What we need to do is raise this matter publicly and hopefully get rid of these vans and expose the hypocracy and sactimonious idiots who support them
Rant over!
Paul
It is now less of a crime to go and assault someone or commit most minor crimes than to speed! The new fixed penalty system gives lower fixed fines for most 'real crimes' as opposed to the 'offence' of speeding and no points. Both are previous convictions.
Saftey vans are not for saftey. They only deal with speeders not reckless or bad driving. Why is that? speed is one facet in 'saftey' but not the only one. It is the easiest to catch hence the vans.
Is the A9 more unsafe becasue of people not driving properly? The ones who would rather you crashed head on into another car than allow you to pull in after ovrtaking. Isnt that dangerous driving?
I agree speed limits are set by law and we should all obey the law. I am a litigation lawyer with 28 years experince and whilst i have been caught speeding a lot, i still uphold that view.
Arbitary or unjust laws or laws to heavily enforced or badly enforced provoke distrust at the system of laws and mistrust of the police who are fundemental to our safe society.
What we need to do is raise this matter publicly and hopefully get rid of these vans and expose the hypocracy and sactimonious idiots who support them
Rant over!
Paul
paulqv said:
There are some fundemental points here which should be addressed with your MP and MSP.
It is now less of a crime to go and assault someone or commit most minor crimes than to speed! The new fixed penalty system gives lower fixed fines for most 'real crimes' as opposed to the 'offence' of speeding and no points. Both are previous convictions.
Saftey vans are not for saftey. They only deal with speeders not reckless or bad driving. Why is that? speed is one facet in 'saftey' but not the only one. It is the easiest to catch hence the vans.
Is the A9 more unsafe becasue of people not driving properly? The ones who would rather you crashed head on into another car than allow you to pull in after ovrtaking. Isnt that dangerous driving?
I agree speed limits are set by law and we should all obey the law. I am a litigation lawyer with 28 years experince and whilst i have been caught speeding a lot, i still uphold that view.
Arbitary or unjust laws or laws to heavily enforced or badly enforced provoke distrust at the system of laws and mistrust of the police who are fundemental to our safe society.
What we need to do is raise this matter publicly and hopefully get rid of these vans and expose the hypocracy and sactimonious idiots who support them
Rant over!
Paul
At last someone talking sense!It is now less of a crime to go and assault someone or commit most minor crimes than to speed! The new fixed penalty system gives lower fixed fines for most 'real crimes' as opposed to the 'offence' of speeding and no points. Both are previous convictions.
Saftey vans are not for saftey. They only deal with speeders not reckless or bad driving. Why is that? speed is one facet in 'saftey' but not the only one. It is the easiest to catch hence the vans.
Is the A9 more unsafe becasue of people not driving properly? The ones who would rather you crashed head on into another car than allow you to pull in after ovrtaking. Isnt that dangerous driving?
I agree speed limits are set by law and we should all obey the law. I am a litigation lawyer with 28 years experince and whilst i have been caught speeding a lot, i still uphold that view.
Arbitary or unjust laws or laws to heavily enforced or badly enforced provoke distrust at the system of laws and mistrust of the police who are fundemental to our safe society.
What we need to do is raise this matter publicly and hopefully get rid of these vans and expose the hypocracy and sactimonious idiots who support them
Rant over!
Paul
I'm on the A9 at least one a month and i've long since stopped speeding on it - ever since i was knabbed by a unmarked stationary mondeo sitting amongst all the hill-walker's cars on the loooooong straight just at kingussie. That's even more annoying than a scamera van.
Was I pissed off? Yes. Hvae i got over it ? Yes.
There are many amazing roads in scotland you can get away with bending the rules a wee bit - the A9 is not one of them I'm afraid.
Don't agree with scameras, don't really agree that it's making the road safer but it doesn't matter what we say they aren't going to stop. So the answer is clear - just don't risk speeding on that bloody road !
EDIT : on the highway code thing - i've just passed my bike test and i was amazed and humbled about how much i'd forgotten in the 16 years since passing my test. It's definately made me a better driver.
Was I pissed off? Yes. Hvae i got over it ? Yes.
There are many amazing roads in scotland you can get away with bending the rules a wee bit - the A9 is not one of them I'm afraid.
Don't agree with scameras, don't really agree that it's making the road safer but it doesn't matter what we say they aren't going to stop. So the answer is clear - just don't risk speeding on that bloody road !
EDIT : on the highway code thing - i've just passed my bike test and i was amazed and humbled about how much i'd forgotten in the 16 years since passing my test. It's definately made me a better driver.
Edited by Lazydonkey on Sunday 26th October 14:30
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