Knockhill GT Marshalling

[Uncle Gueber]

Went down to watch the GTs at Knockhill on Saturday and can’t believe how badly organised some of the Marshalling and support appears to be.

Can anyone that marshall’s let me know the process for Red flagging a race. Who makes the decision to go with the red flag, marshal closest to the incident? are there more senior marshals located around the course that are allowed to make such a descision or does it rest with the race director?

Reason being I usually watch from the chicane and time and time again have seen incidents and immediately though a race should be Red flagged. Typical scenario is someone will spin and stall on the exit, resulting in a car being stranded on the outside of the corner or across the track and since the corner is blind, all hell normally ensues as cars come over the top. I have seen some pretty big accidents happen due to this when these cars get collected by the following pack, and marshals having some very lucky escapes. I know the yellow is meant to warn of the need to reduce speed but often the marshal station at the top will be the first flag a driver will see.

G

[Nicholas Blair]

see http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[agent006]

Uncle Gueber said:

Can anyone that marshall’s let me know the process for Red flagging a race.

The marshal post closest will call the incident into race control. They can request a red flag if necessary but it's race control's decision as to whether the race is stopped or not. If a red flag is agreed then it is radioed out to all posts and the flags will be put out.

p.s. Nicholas: you describe the marshalling at amateurish. You're entirely correct, none of them get paid.

Edited by agent006 on Monday 14th April 08:33

[KJR]

Each post around the circuit has a team of marshals:

Trainee/Track - do all the work, pushing cars,sweeping track, rebuilding tyre walls.

I/O Incident Officer - in charge of trainee/track marshals. Meant to organise things so that there is as small a gap as possible between practices/races.

Flaggie - waves flags .

Observer - most senior person on post. Is in radio contact with Race Control. If there is an incident on post then it is up to the Observer to report to Race Control if it is safe to continue. If an Observer asks for a race stop(red flags) then 99/100 race control will instruct everyone that the race is to be stopped.

As with most things in life there is a proper way to stop a race. At Knockhill:

Race Control orders a race stop/red flags out.

Start/Finish line (Post 1) puts out a red flag.

Post 2 (Duffs) and Post 10 (half way between start/finish and the hairpin) see the red flags at start/finish and put out their red flags.

Post 3 (Macintyres) see the red flag at Post 2 and Post 9 (Hairpin) see the flag at Post 10 and put their flags out.

And so on round the circuit.

Only in exceptional circumstances can a Post decide to stop a race/put out a red flag without consulting Race Control.

Funnily enough I did this for the first time yesterday on the first lap of the Ginetta Cup race where we had three cars, minus various wheels, sitting on the track between Clarks and the Railway straight, There was no way we were going to move them with cars coming round, even behind the safety car, so I just stuck the red flag out.

Also note that at Knockhill there are a number of cameras around the circuit which Race Control view on a bank of monitors.

HTH.

[Nicholas Blair]

agent006 said:

Uncle Gueber said:

Can anyone that marshall’s let me know the process for Red flagging a race.

The marshal post closest will call the incident into race control. They can request a red flag if necessary but it's race control's decision as to whether the race is stopped or not. If a red flag is agreed then it is radioed out to all posts and the flags will be put out.

p.s. Nicholas: you describe the marshalling at amateurish. You're entirely correct, none of them get paid.

Edited by agent006 on Monday 14th April 08:33

Indeed - I'm not for once trying to put down the marshalls and the job they do, but it seems every time I go to Knockhill there are instances where things could/should be done better/differently. Perhaps you Marshalls don't get enough training/practical experience of bigger formulae racing.

Even at the BTCC last year, the female? marshall who ran across the track at the Dip during the BMW single seater race, almost getting herself run down. Noticed she wasn't about at the weeknd.

Maybe I should offer my services?

Edited by Nicholas Blair on Monday 14th April 09:47

[KJR]

Nicholas Blair said:

Perhaps you Marshalls don't get enough training/practical experience of bigger formulae racing.

Bigger meetings (BTCC/GTs) bring a whole new level of pressures. BTCC is usually live TV therefore things have to be run to fit their timetable but a major problem is the teams themselves.

If a car goes off you will have the team manager up "ordering" race control not to touch the car until their mechanics have got to it. The mechanics will be jumping up and down telling the marshals/recovery crew how to do the recovery, obviously to limit any further damage to the car.

The "Big name" drivers can be just as bad. Some years ago during a visiting major single seater race a car stopped on the track just after the start of a race. The race had to be stopped and, during the recovery, the driver was overheard telling the mechanic that the throttle cable had snapped and they could get it fixed and rejoin the restart of the race. He was excluded from the meeting for stopping on the circuit rather than pulling into a place of safety, which he could have done.

Nicholas Blair said:

Even at the BTCC last year, the female? marshall who ran across the track at the Dip during the BMW single seater race, almost getting herself run down. Noticed she wasn't about at the weeknd.

Cannot comment on the incident as I did not see it. Yes the marshal you referred to was not there on Sunday as she was away playing rugby . New rule for this year is that marshals cannot cross a live track.

[360 detailing]

Nicholas Blair said:

agent006 said:

Uncle Gueber said:

Can anyone that marshall’s let me know the process for Red flagging a race.

The marshal post closest will call the incident into race control. They can request a red flag if necessary but it's race control's decision as to whether the race is stopped or not. If a red flag is agreed then it is radioed out to all posts and the flags will be put out.

p.s. Nicholas: you describe the marshalling at amateurish. You're entirely correct, none of them get paid.

Edited by agent006 on Monday 14th April 08:33

Indeed - I'm not for once trying to put down the marshalls and the job they do, but it seems every time I go to Knockhill there are instances where things could/should be done better/differently. Perhaps you Marshalls don't get enough training/practical experience of bigger formulae racing.

Even at the BTCC last year, the female? marshall who ran across the track at the Dip during the BMW single seater race, almost getting herself run down. Noticed she wasn't about at the weeknd.

Maybe I should offer my services?

Edited by Nicholas Blair on Monday 14th April 09:47

I Think you should offer to provide the pace car Nick..............

[Uncle Gueber]

Thanks for clearing up the process for Red flagging a race.

Sort of what I expected as it seams to take an eternity for the decision to be made. Although would like to know what constitutes “exceptional circumstances”.
I appreciate your comments about the pressure of live schedules etc. but your not there for the benefit of a TV company. I honestly believe with the accidents and close shaves I’ve seen at that particular corner, it’s only a matter of time before a driver or marshal is killed or seriously injured, in a potentially avoidable incident. Possibly I’ve stood at that corner on too many occasions but I don’t feel it takes a genius to work the most probable outcome of certain situations and the need for an immediate call. No one enjoys unnecessary delays but I rather stand about for an extra few mins in the cold (& snow as per Saturday) than see someone taken out.

Being mindful of the fact there would be no motorsport or do trackdays if not for the folks who volunteer to marshal. I’ve always believed you should really support it by marshalling once in a while. However when I see some of the stuff that takes place, I can’t believe how unnecessarily dangerous an activity some people make this and can’t bring myself to get involved.

Maybe a lot of people were just having a bad day on Sat, but from a punters point of view, it has to be said there was some spectacularly poor & dangerous decisions made by some of the marshals, drivers & recovery staff.
G>

[996TT_STEVO]

WTF, was that Nissan Safety car all about? seriously, they could have had something a little bit quicker, to keep GT's up to some operating temperature.

[KJR]

996TT_STEVO said:

WTF, was that Nissan Safety car all about? seriously, they could have had something a little bit quicker, to keep GT's up to some operating temperature.

I think you will find that it was a Ford Mondeo.

[Col 666]

Did seem a strange choice for a safety car!


On the marshalling topic, They do a great job in all conditions and for no payment, there has been a couple of incidents where they maybe got things a wee bit wrong but they are working under dangerous and stressful conditions.

How many here would lie down in a gravel trap in front of a beached race car trying to hook on a tow rope with 600bhp race cars tearing passed a few metres away?? They are a friendly bunch too until us photographers wander into the wrong area!


Col.

[996TT_STEVO]

KJR said:

996TT_STEVO said:

WTF, was that Nissan Safety car all about? seriously, they could have had something a little bit quicker, to keep GT's up to some operating temperature.

I think you will find that it was a Ford Mondeo.

Jeez, I must get my eyes checked, mind you I was a bit far away and regardless it still wasn't quick enough to do the job.

[996TT_STEVO]

Col 666 said:

How many here would lie down in a gravel trap in front of a beached race car trying to hook on a tow rope with 600bhp race cars tearing passed a few metres away??
Col.

Agreed, noticed this down at the hairpin.

[Uncle Gueber]

Col 666 said:

How many here would lie down in a gravel trap in front of a beached race car trying to hook on a tow rope with 600bhp race cars tearing passed a few metres away??
Col.

Nobody I would hope!
Why run the risk? If the race is stopped the incident can be dealt with far quicker and the action re-started without putting anyone at unnecessary risk.

Just for clarity I’m really not trying to have a go at the marshals, on the whole they do a great job. Its just that on the last few occasions I’ve been to Knockhill some of the decisions/ actions have made me cringe or given me cause for concern.

Col – notice from your profile you have an O&G background, I presume offshore. If so do you share the mindset of allowing anyone to make an immediate call, or does this perhaps vary from operator to operator?

Possibly I’m just getting too old! (Why is there no OAP smilie?)
G

[Col 666]

Uncle Gueber said:

Col 666 said:

How many here would lie down in a gravel trap in front of a beached race car trying to hook on a tow rope with 600bhp race cars tearing passed a few metres away??
Col.

Col – notice from your profile you have an O&G background, I presume offshore. If so do you share the mindset of allowing anyone to make an immediate call, or does this perhaps vary from operator to operator?

Possibly I’m just getting too old! (Why is there no OAP smilie?)
G

Yes I do work offshore, not sure if I understand your question though!

[Semi hemi]

Col 666 said:

Uncle Gueber said:

Col 666 said:

How many here would lie down in a gravel trap in front of a beached race car trying to hook on a tow rope with 600bhp race cars tearing passed a few metres away??
Col.

Col – notice from your profile you have an O&G background, I presume offshore. If so do you share the mindset of allowing anyone to make an immediate call, or does this perhaps vary from operator to operator?

Possibly I’m just getting too old! (Why is there no OAP smilie?)
G

Yes I do work offshore, not sure if I understand your question though!

I think he may be refering to STOP or some such program where anyone can halt a job in progress (on a rig)because they feel it is unsafe for it to continue. and wants to apply this to marshalling
Maybe he works for the HSE

[Col 666]

Uncle Gueber said:

Col – notice from your profile you have an O&G background, I presume offshore. If so do you share the mindset of allowing anyone to make an immediate call, or does this perhaps vary from operator to operator?

Possibly I’m just getting too old! (Why is there no OAP smilie?)
G

We use the stop system on my platform, seems to work reasonably well but can be a bit daunting approaching a group of big blokes to tell them they are doing something wrong!! But dont get me started on STOP cards, we have to hand in a minimum every trip and it turns into a farce.

[ITB]

Uncle Gueber said:

Col 666 said:

How many here would lie down in a gravel trap in front of a beached race car trying to hook on a tow rope with 600bhp race cars tearing passed a few metres away??
Col.

Nobody I would hope!
Why run the risk? If the race is stopped the incident can be dealt with far quicker and the action re-started without putting anyone at unnecessary risk.

Just for clarity I’m really not trying to have a go at the marshals, on the whole they do a great job. Its just that on the last few occasions I’ve been to Knockhill some of the decisions/ actions have made me cringe or given me cause for concern.

Col – notice from your profile you have an O&G background, I presume offshore. If so do you share the mindset of allowing anyone to make an immediate call, or does this perhaps vary from operator to operator?

Possibly I’m just getting too old! (Why is there no OAP smilie?)
G

I understand your point, but if a race was stopped everytime a car went into the gravel, it wouldn't be interesting.

I have dabbled in marshalling and the club or race track are liable for you, but you have to use common sense aswell, Marshalls are there to keep a race going, not to interrupt it when they need to do things.

[Col 666]

I agree, it would be a complete waste of time spectating if the race was stopped more often than they are already. The present set-up works fine I think.

[Uncle Gueber]

Semi hemi said:

Maybe he works for the HSE

Come on now, there’s no need to get like that.

Col - On the few occasions I’ve been off, the culture of calling a halt to any activity be it a workface or even production has been heavily promoted. I found that a re-assuring approach, I like the idea that I have some say over my own safety (granted probably not what happens in reality).

Stopping races – Not asking for unecesaary breaks in the proceedings. Just my view that when certain incidents have occurred at the chicane and I’ve thought “Red Flag” (9 times out of 10 it does follow). It’s the delay between the initial incident and the Red flag which means if an accident is going to occur it normally already has by the time the Red does appear. (Still believe the fact the chicane is blind, means more Reds there than any other corner.)

As was mentioned in the other thread, the “The Great Towrope Saga” could have been executed better. Not sure if it was the same incident but the Recovery Discovery came very close to reversing straight into a car still circulating under Yellows, again no need to stop the race but room for improvement.

I’m off to find my pipe and slippers as I’ve used up my posting quota for the year.
G>