Suggestions for road car class in Hillclimbing/Sprinting

[madmac666]

There's a bit of a debate going on in the sidelines about a possible extra class break in the big road saloons (over 1800cc) as the unfair advantage of Evo/Subaru 4wd's is becoming an issue against non turbo 2wd cars, so I wanted to open a public debate to get some opinions on this.

I run the Evo in the over 1800cc class and can see how having cars like this in the class could stop newcomers entering (or existing competitors leaving, there is one name I could mention but wont just now) as the performance difference makes it impossible for 2wd non turbo cars to be competitive (or 2wd turbos for that matter).

A few suggestions so far are:

The existing 'Over 1800cc' road car class being changed to 1800cc to 2600cc with the same rules as current in the existing Scottish road car classes which would deny Evo's/Subaru's and Pulsars etc. and another bigger class 'Road Cars over 2500cc or 2600cc' to contain what would probably be mostly these big power 4wd cars because of the 1.4:1 forced induction multiplyer

OR

As per HSC 2007 where the 1800cc class is split into 2wd and 4wd. This has worked well this year and allowed a few good and fair battles for honours.


Does anyone have opinions on the above or can suggest any alternatives to the above (and their reasoning behind their suggestions). Obviously it's impossible to keep everyone happy and there will always be a car that ends up with the bigger 4wd's so am looking for suggestions here! I favour the over 2500cc or 2600cc choice but that's only my opinion

Donald

[SteveSlowboy]

I think Donald is referring to me, but i'm sure it also applies to a few other folk - a certain silver Lotus Sunbeam, a white RS2000 to name just two.

I stopped competing in my E30 M3 because of the night-and-day differences in performance of traditional saloons and the modern era Japanese turbo monsters. The E30 M3 was after all an homologation special designed for the track, but against the 15 year newere technology of the scoobies and evos it didn't stand a chance.

Yes, I know I could have shoe-horned an M5 V8 into the M3 and might have managed to scrape the odd 3rd place finish or such like, but now with cars like Donald's and John Stevensons (and plenty others) there was just no point.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's fantastic to see the large road saloon class thriving with these modern cars - at the Scottish events they usually make up the biggest class with upwards of 18 cars at Fintray (only the caterfield classes come close to these numbers).

I favour the extra class using the cc break - yes I know there will still be a few cars that end up fighting amongst the Evos/scoobies - such as Guy Stock's VR6 Golf, but it would allow the normally aspirated 2 litre cars a chance. After all, the next most "sporting" road car (4 seater) type is the 2 litre hot-hatchs.

The Highland Speed Championship's solution has obviously worked - just look at the battle that Neil Dunbar has had in the new class (well done by the way!).

There's no such thing as too many classes - if there aren't enough entries, they get amalgamated - on an event-by-event basis.

There will always be the "trophy baggers" who trawl through the rules and classes and source a car that will trounce a class - and why not? But for most people, they drive what they already own - and getting new "petrol-heads" into the sport is more likely to be folk with sports-saloons or hatches - so these road car classes are usually people's first foray into the sport.

There - that's my feelings!

Steve (ex-road car , since defected into the racing car class)

[G4Addicted]

Donald/Steve,

This issue was discussed at the recent committee meeting, with no changes for 2008 other than those already announced, because basically competitors like to see more notice of change. The 2009 class structure will be reviewed at the next meeting early in 2008. Have a chat with your club reps on the committee if you want more information or influence that discussion.

I would make some observations. firstly, the 4WD cars were kept separate from the other road cars up until a few seasons ago when the classes were rationalised, when a sub-committee of competitors recommended that it should be one of the classes to go as most of the cars over 1800 at the time were 4WD anyway.

One question has to be, why build a 2-litre, Zetec-powered Fiesta anyway, when an 1800 makes more sense under the current regulations?

Another question is whether we should expect a car with 15-year-old technology to be competitive - an extension to that argument would be to separate crossflow Caterhams from their more modern brethren - after all, Touring Car spec engines cannot be 'fair', can they? It might seem harsh, but everyone with an uncompetitive, favourite car can make an argument for a different class structure.

One change we have made for 2008 is to change the 'cutoff' date for A7, which means that Sunbeams and RS2000s are now eligible there - provided that any modifications are 'period' of course.

Another change that will go a long way to achieving what you are looking for is the introduction of two new classes for 2WD Road Saloons in 2008 (up to 1800 and over 1800). Provided that these cars meet the MSA criteria for Production Cars, they now have somewhere to go. That said, a Zetec-engined Fiesta doesn't fit the criteria, but you cannot please everyone all the time...

[k13job]

SteveSlowboy said:

The E30 M3 was after all an homologation special designed for the track, but against the 15 year newere technology of the scoobies and evos it didn't stand a chance.

Technology moves on, the age difference is not a valid reason for changing the classes. However, the 2 or 4 wheel drive split is a good idea, as proved by the HSC.

The age / technology argument is raging in England (and elsewhere ) due to the appearance of Lotus Exiges in road going classes arround the country, but again my opening statement applies.

[madmac666]

Sorry about doing that to you by the way! (I think you were itching for a racing car anyway...). I think it's at the stage where the over 1800cc is becoming a BIG car class that'll be full of the jap technology and not much else unless something is done. This in turn would leave few attractive options for those wanting to enter the sport in their existing cars. Cars such as 2ltr Novas or M3's/etc. would have an even chance of a class win with us 4wd missiles battling it out in a class of our own. I remember when I started out in the Galant '94 and because my existing road car had an alien V8 engine, I had to run in Sports Libre trying to battle with single seaters with the result of puting me off the sport a bit (no competition, I got hammered most of the time!). This is similar to our current situation where newcomers could be put off if there's little realistic chance of close competition in a class.

[SteveSlowboy]

I agree that competitors need (and appreciate) notice of changes in the regs - so lets get this discussion going now so if people want a change, it can be implemented in a timescale that can make a difference for 2009.

In terms of building a 1.8 litre car, I think the chap already had the Zetec - much like most people coming into this sport they enter with the car they already have. Maybe a few years down the line, they decide to modify/build a car to suit a particluar class structure, but to start with it's "run-what-you-brung" (Certainly was for me). My previous car was built to be a fun fast car and I used it on track days - with no awareness of the speed sport scene, and certainly no knowledge of rules and class structure. It was simply a case of fitting a good available powerful engine which happened to be a 2 litre.

Of course my old M3 was old tech - and I wouldn't expect it to be comparable to modern Jap machinery (or any other nationality) - but I was competitive with similar age and tech cars and had good battles. It just gets you down when you can have a pitched battle all year but with no chance of points.

I wasn't aware of the change in year for class A7 - that's brilliant. I do think a rolling type age limit would be sensible so as cars get older and superceded, they can fall into that class. Admittedly, then the even older cars feel hard done by! You cant win!

Is the new 1800 class based on the blue book rules for production cars? If so, unfortunately it wouldn't help any of our current competitors and they would still loose out. And any newcomers are likely to be "petrol-heads" and are unlikely to have standard cars (read eligible). Or am I wrong?

Steve

[madmac666]

SteveSlowboy said:

Is the new 1800 class based on the blue book rules for production cars? If so, unfortunately it wouldn't help any of our current competitors and they would still loose out. And any newcomers are likely to be "petrol-heads" and are unlikely to have standard cars (read eligible). Or am I wrong?

Steve

[madmac666]

SteveSlowboy said:

Is the new 1800 class based on the blue book rules for production cars? If so, unfortunately it wouldn't help any of our current competitors and they would still loose out. And any newcomers are likely to be "petrol-heads" and are unlikely to have standard cars (read eligible). Or am I wrong?

Steve

Good point, last time I looked round the paddock, there was only 1 or 2 cars that would be eligible for 'blue book' classes so probably wouldn't attract many newcomers for that reason. After all, it's the owners of these already moddified cars that would be most likely to want to get involved in motorsport

[G4Addicted]

madmac666 said:

SteveSlowboy said:

Is the new 1800 class based on the blue book rules for production cars? If so, unfortunately it wouldn't help any of our current competitors and they would still loose out. And any newcomers are likely to be "petrol-heads" and are unlikely to have standard cars (read eligible). Or am I wrong?

Steve

Good point, last time I looked round the paddock, there was only 1 or 2 cars that would be eligible for 'blue book' classes so probably wouldn't attract many newcomers for that reason. After all, it's the owners of these already moddified cars that would be most likely to want to get involved in motorsport

Have a look at the Blue Book regs for Production Cars first - you will be surprised how many modifications they do allow. MSA 'Roadgoing Production' does not mean 'showroom'. For example, although the suspension configuration must remain standard, that does not mean that the components within that configuration cannot be upgraded - but they do require four seats, which is probably not unreasonable in what is meant to be a 'road saloon'...

[G4Addicted]

L.A.D said:

Interesting............
What car/class will the bogey times for this class be based on?

Initial thoughts were to allow these classes to 'find their own level' and not set bogeys for the start of the season. The committee felt that this might go against the primary objective, which is to draw in new blood, whereas not setting bogeys might encourage the 'pot-hunters' and be counter-productive.

As a compromise, and as a starting point for 2008, we will use the current A1 (up to 1400cc) bogeys for A9 (up to 1800cc), and the A2 (1400 - 1800cc) bogeys for A10 (over 1800cc). Not ideal, but it is a compromise. Hopefully by the end of 2008 we will have accumulated some realistic data for these cars, going forward, and will review the A9/A10 bogeys accordingly.

[tuscan_thunder]

G4Addicted said:

One question has to be, why build a 2-litre, Zetec-powered Fiesta anyway, when an 1800 makes more sense under the current regulations?

Will this not just lead to a similar situation occuring in A2?

I view this from my point of view - fairly standard 1600cc car in A2 up against a lot of powerful stuff in that class - those without the deep pockets will always struggle - on a hill, Lewis Hamilton couldn't make up for a 60bhp deficit and that 60bhp comes, essentially, from spending more money regardless of whether you do the work yourself.

As for Donald's original point, I think the formation of a class 'over 2500cc' (or 2600 etc) is a sensible move - you can't, obviously, please all of the people, all of the time, but I think this would be the most logical step.

I appreciate that any decisions like these take time.

There appears to be a strong voice here as to the possible changes - I wonder if these views could be collated somehow and put forward to the relevant committees?

[madmac666]

G4Addicted said:

L.A.D said:

Interesting............
What car/class will the bogey times for this class be based on?

Initial thoughts were to allow these classes to 'find their own level' and not set bogeys for the start of the season. The committee felt that this might go against the primary objective, which is to draw in new blood, whereas not setting bogeys might encourage the 'pot-hunters' and be counter-productive.

As a compromise, and as a starting point for 2008, we will use the current A1 (up to 1400cc) bogeys for A9 (up to 1800cc), and the A2 (1400 - 1800cc) bogeys for A10 (over 1800cc). Not ideal, but it is a compromise. Hopefully by the end of 2008 we will have accumulated some realistic data for these cars, going forward, and will review the A9/A10 bogeys accordingly.

David, from your last post it looks like a decision has already been made on these 2 new classes? Am I wrong? As I mentioned earlier, if you look through the paddock at any hillclimb/sprint there is only a small handfull of existing cars that would be eligible for these blue book classes. I personally think these classes would be more likely to put off newcomers. A larger CC class break following existing Scottish rules makes more sense to me but there's also the option of using the format current in the HSC where the 2 & 4wd cars are split. Surely either of these options would be better for attracting newcomers than a blue book class?

[G4Addicted]

As we all seem to be talking about the two-litre Fiesta, I thought I would dig out the times from Alford.

Neil Dunbar was 5th in a class of 11 cars on both days, beating a double-entered EVO2, a Subaru, and 4WD Sunny GTI on both days. While I take the point that he is up against it with the Evo9s and folk like John Stevenson, so is everyone else in that class - Bobby Davidson was 6th in a 2-litre Nova, so these don't look like uncompetitive cars in the wider context of A3.

One of the unfortunate aspects of motorsport is that finance is always an issue, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the talent of the driver, but it will always be a contributing factor to success.

[tuscan_thunder]

G4Addicted said:

One of the unfortunate aspects of motorsport is that finance is always an issue, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the talent of the driver, but it will always be a contributing factor to success.

I agree with that statement entirely.


However (you knew that was coming, didn't you?), in the interests of further the sport and attracting new and more competitors, is it not a duty of the organising committees and clubs to do all they can to make the sport as 'inexpensive' as possible, at least in certain categories?

The Mini Challenge was a good example, but the opportunity was missed by making it quite expensive - should there be a 'stock hatch' class where a car can be bought for, say £2k and only certain mods are allowed? Would this attract new entrants who may then 'get the bug' and progress onwards? Would this also lead to cars being handed on down the ranks to new drivers, again helping costs?

Lots of questions, lots of "what ifs?"

[madmac666]

G4Addicted said:

One of the unfortunate aspects of motorsport is that finance is always an issue, to a greater or lesser extent depending on the talent of the driver, but it will always be a contributing factor to success.

Agreed, finance is one of the biggest issues in motorsport so why then have classes that many existing cars can't enter without money being spent to make them comply with a blue book class. Those that do enter will tend to want to improve their times and go modifying therefore leave the class after a year, then back to where we are now. This is one of the reasons I personally support a bigger CC class under existing Scottish rules. List A1 tyres is an issue I've heard many would be unhappy with, and is a topic I hear mentioned frequently.

Have these new classes already been decided? I notice the question hasn't been answered yet. If it has been decided, are we wasting our time debating this?

[tuscan_thunder]

madmac666 said:

List A1 tyres is an issue I've heard many would be unhappy with, and is a topic I hear mentioned frequently.

I think A1 list tyres would be borderline dangerous - they are not really motorsport tyres and, as such, would be used outwith their design remit. Never a good idea.

[madmac666]

tuscan_thunder said:

madmac666 said:

List A1 tyres is an issue I've heard many would be unhappy with, and is a topic I hear mentioned frequently.

I think A1 list tyres would be borderline dangerous - they are not really motorsport tyres and, as such, would be used outwith their design remit. Never a good idea.

If you look at the class entries in England, most cars that are genuine road cars run in modifieds rather than run road car class & list A1 tyres for that reason. The road car classes following blue book rules aren't that well supported from what I've seen. Tyre constraint is probably a large decider as many competitors are chasing personal goals and just want to reduce their times. A set of tyres is relatively cheap in the larger shceme of things

[tuscan_thunder]

madmac666 said:

tuscan_thunder said:

madmac666 said:

List A1 tyres is an issue I've heard many would be unhappy with, and is a topic I hear mentioned frequently.

I think A1 list tyres would be borderline dangerous - they are not really motorsport tyres and, as such, would be used outwith their design remit. Never a good idea.

If you look at the class entries in England, most cars that are genuine road cars run in modifieds rather than run road car class & list A1 tyres for that reason. The road car classes following blue book rules aren't that well supported from what I've seen. Tyre constraint is probably a large decider as many competitors are chasing personal goals and just want to reduce their times. A set of tyres is relatively cheap in the larger shceme of things

exactly - no-one's going to use just one set of A1 tyres in a year so the cost factor is negated in terms of tyres, it becomes an issue in terms of sets of wheels only (assuming the car is used on the road)

I think it's a case of fitness for purpose - no-one wears Prada shoes to climb Ben Nevis so why use road tyres in a motorsport event?

[fiestajohn]

madmac666 said:

Have these new classes already been decided? I notice the question hasn't been answered yet. If it has been decided, are we wasting our time debating this?

I think the classes have been decided for 2008 (including these two new classes)

David, would it not be a good idea to publish the minutes of the committee meetings (on the Hillclimb and Sprint website for example) so that people know what is going on.

[fiestajohn]

Personally I think there are two many classes as it is.(You could lose a few Modified classes for a start)

At Doune/Forrestburn you are lucky if you get five cars in the over 1800cc road saloons.
If we had the number of competitors at Doune/Forrestburn that they get at Fintray then yes I would agree that another class would be good but at the moment there just are not enough cars.

I thought the suggestion to change the split from 1800cc to 2000cc that was made a few years ago was a good one.
It would not suit everyone but it would move the 2000cc Fiestas, Novas,etc into the smaller capacity class and it also MIGHT attract newcomers with 2000cc "Hot Hatches"

There are a few people (a couple that I know of are on here) building 1800cc road saloons, so it might not suit them but I do not think the 2000cc cars have been quicker than the best 1800cc cars.

But maybe I am just bias because I could easily put a 2000cc Zetec in my car.