Alford Sprint Sunday 16th Jul 06
Discussion
It was a very well run event helped of course by the weather and no one going badly off. Can't think of anything to improve. The only negative is personal in that I don't like the track much, & would prefer it to move to the Sunday track at Boyndie + an extra lap which would be more fun. But then there wouldn't be so many spectators.
cheers
John
cheers
John
TWJPToyota said:
is there any way to improve it?
Apart from free "brave pills", a few driving lessons and a bigger push from the startline marshalls - not much!
Well done to all at GAC who set up and ran the event with the bigggest ever entry
I'm not a great fan of the Alford track either but it's our most local venue and, IMO deserves our continued support. I don't like Boyndie either but that's for other reasons
JP
PS John, huge invoice follows for use of tyres on Sunday £500 per second of improvement wasn't it
First off - Thanks to GAC and to the marshals, and to whoever arranged the weather.
The way the start line was run was great, having the car on the line ready to go and encouraging cars to clear the track as quickly as was safe saved considerable time over the day and saved the event over running, that and not too many excursion into the bails.
The paddock layout was better than previous events, not sure exactly what the difference was but something was missing and we all had a bit more space.
So no I cannot think of anything to improve the event, it is good for spectators, close to home (for me)decent facilities, museum with tearoom right beside it and I like competing there even though it is not my favourite to drive.
If someone could tell me how to reduce the understeer it would be even better.
The way the start line was run was great, having the car on the line ready to go and encouraging cars to clear the track as quickly as was safe saved considerable time over the day and saved the event over running, that and not too many excursion into the bails.
The paddock layout was better than previous events, not sure exactly what the difference was but something was missing and we all had a bit more space.
So no I cannot think of anything to improve the event, it is good for spectators, close to home (for me)decent facilities, museum with tearoom right beside it and I like competing there even though it is not my favourite to drive.
If someone could tell me how to reduce the understeer it would be even better.
there are some springy things with bolts and knobs and stuff 
g4addicted said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
If someone could tell me how to reduce the understeer it would be even better.
Take the thing to Mark Hutcheson at MH Racing - if anyone can get it handling right, he can.
It has been there, he did the corner weights and camber etc, I think maybe I need to start looking at springs rates, though I haven't a clue where to start, I think Mark will probably get it back over the winter to look a bit further into the problem.
It could be my driving of course, one guy I know thought I was getting on the loud pedal earlier than some others, but is that not what you are supposed to do ?
I softened the front shock absorber and firmed up the rear but it didn't seem to make much difference, it is only troublesome at hairpins (Boyndie, Fintry) though for some reason Kames doesn't seem to be too bad, and of course each end of Alford, faster corners are OK.
tuscan_thunder said:
Corpulent Tosser said:
If someone could tell me how to reduce the understeer it would be even better.
What is the set-up at the rear of your car - coilover/axle? Spring rates?
Live axle with coilovers.
No idea what the spring rates are, they are yellow if that is any indication.
I am learning a bit about the suspension/steering set up but it seems to be a bit of a black art to me, I did buy Mr Kiltie a book on car set up, maybe I should borrow it from him. He keeps commenting on the tools I borrow so why not the book as well
I'd soften the dampers at the back a notch or two and stiffen the springs. I'd guess at a rate of at least 350 - 400lb in the rear (though this would be a wee bit 'skippy' in the wet) not sure about the fronts - maybe 250-300? Not so sure about the front though.
As ever, change only one thing at a time. (Maybe hiring Alford for a morning would be the way to do this - ie change, drive, change, drive)
Then I'd try softening the front slightly (to get more weight transfer forward and push the front end into the track)
I assume you're running ACB10s? If so, what pressure's are you running?
Have you got an LSD? If so, it could be adding to the understeer depending on its locking rate.
As said, Mark knows what he's doing.
(Is the book Alan Staniforth's book? It's deep but excellent)
As ever, change only one thing at a time. (Maybe hiring Alford for a morning would be the way to do this - ie change, drive, change, drive)
Then I'd try softening the front slightly (to get more weight transfer forward and push the front end into the track)
I assume you're running ACB10s? If so, what pressure's are you running?
Have you got an LSD? If so, it could be adding to the understeer depending on its locking rate.
As said, Mark knows what he's doing.
(Is the book Alan Staniforth's book? It's deep but excellent)
Edited by tuscan_thunder on Thursday 20th July 10:09
Interesting comment about the LSD, I fitted a Gripper diff over the winter and I don't recall these understeer problems last year, maybe that is the difference.
I am running ACB10s and have tried pressures from 15 to 18psi, seems to make little difference, or not any that is apparent to me.
Surprised to see you say soften the rear, I went the other way and firmed up the rear a couple of notches and softened the front the same amount, again didn't feel much if any different.
I am running ACB10s and have tried pressures from 15 to 18psi, seems to make little difference, or not any that is apparent to me.
Surprised to see you say soften the rear, I went the other way and firmed up the rear a couple of notches and softened the front the same amount, again didn't feel much if any different.
Alford seems to require a specific setup (low speed, tight hairpins). On the Elise I softened the front and stiffened the rear which cut the understeer but made it real twitchy in the fast crossover. Had to drive around it a bit - trail brake deep into the corner to get the back moving.
I was there the other week in the Exige and lots of understeer if I got on the power early. I was pretty conservative though and not really trail braking...
Cheers,
Ali
I was there the other week in the Exige and lots of understeer if I got on the power early. I was pretty conservative though and not really trail braking...
Cheers,
Ali
Corpulent Tosser said:
Interesting comment about the LSD, I fitted a Gripper diff over the winter and I don't recall these understeer problems last year, maybe that is the difference.
I am running ACB10s and have tried pressures from 15 to 18psi, seems to make little difference, or not any that is apparent to me.
Surprised to see you say soften the rear, I went the other way and firmed up the rear a couple of notches and softened the front the same amount, again didn't feel much if any different.
I am running ACB10s and have tried pressures from 15 to 18psi, seems to make little difference, or not any that is apparent to me.
Surprised to see you say soften the rear, I went the other way and firmed up the rear a couple of notches and softened the front the same amount, again didn't feel much if any different.
i'd say to soften the damping but stiffen the springing at the rear. See how that goes. I'd run about 19-20 psi in the fronts and 15 ish on the rears and see how that works too.
An LSD will offer far better traction (probably a better time, but it will feel uncomfortable and unruly) but will nearly always induce more, or cause, understeer until such time as the car is oversteering
Much of what has been said here is about masking a basic front-end grip problem by reducing the level of grip at the rear of the car. This might reduce the understeer, but will ultimately make the car slower - less grip is still less grip...
You need to look for a solution that improves front end grip on slow corners. If the car has a front ant-roll bar, I would disconnect it and see what the car does then - I would happily swap a little front end stability for better bite and turn in in tight corners. If the car is too unstable without the A/R bar, then put it back at a softer setting - or have a lighter bar made. If the car is understeering badly with no A/R bar and the tyres are in good nick, then it is most likely a spring rate problem - but also try some negative camber (c.2 degrees to start with). You could also try going for softer springing, but test the ones you have first - I would go down by about 10%. Lastly, don't fall into the usual trap of using the shock absorbers as spring assisters - the springs are there to take the suspension loads, and the shocks are there to control how the springs behave.
Kames will mask the problem because a) the tarmack is all relatively new and made for race circuits, and b)all of the Kames corners are banked slightly. Fintray hairpin will emphasise the problem, because the poor old track surface has always been mainly stone, and is now basically knackered.
You need to look for a solution that improves front end grip on slow corners. If the car has a front ant-roll bar, I would disconnect it and see what the car does then - I would happily swap a little front end stability for better bite and turn in in tight corners. If the car is too unstable without the A/R bar, then put it back at a softer setting - or have a lighter bar made. If the car is understeering badly with no A/R bar and the tyres are in good nick, then it is most likely a spring rate problem - but also try some negative camber (c.2 degrees to start with). You could also try going for softer springing, but test the ones you have first - I would go down by about 10%. Lastly, don't fall into the usual trap of using the shock absorbers as spring assisters - the springs are there to take the suspension loads, and the shocks are there to control how the springs behave.
Kames will mask the problem because a) the tarmack is all relatively new and made for race circuits, and b)all of the Kames corners are banked slightly. Fintray hairpin will emphasise the problem, because the poor old track surface has always been mainly stone, and is now basically knackered.
[quote=g4addicted] Lastly, don't fall into the usual trap of using the shock absorbers as spring assisters - the springs are there to take the suspension loads, and the shocks are there to control how the springs behave.
quote]
Oh yes I have definately fallen into that trap, but then it is easier than changing springs which is probably what I will have to do.
Interesting comment about Kames, I do get u/steer there but it is not bad, next event is Lossie and I think I will have to try the circuit before changing anything, but disconnecting the anti roll bar for the next Alford is something worth trying.
Thanks to all for the advice, what I will do with it all is another matter.
Murray
quote]
Oh yes I have definately fallen into that trap, but then it is easier than changing springs which is probably what I will have to do.
Interesting comment about Kames, I do get u/steer there but it is not bad, next event is Lossie and I think I will have to try the circuit before changing anything, but disconnecting the anti roll bar for the next Alford is something worth trying.
Thanks to all for the advice, what I will do with it all is another matter.
Murray
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