Sprint at RAF Lossie 14/08
Discussion
tuscan_thunder said:
... what is is about Fintray you don't like?
OK, maybe "dislike" was too strong. I think "don't enjoy" might have been better.
Now this is tough as I'm always harping on about suppoting Scottish motorsport and particularly in the NE. It sticks in my throat to knock any venue.
Nevertheless, here are a list of personal reasons why I "don't enjoy" Fintray.
- I've been off there more times than anywhere else
- It's slippy - especially in May but not much better in August (and I'm not overlooking the valiant efforts of the GAC volunteers in preparing as best they can)
- The track is affa narrow - you mostly drive in the middle all the way up
- I can never get the hairpin right
- It doesn't matter if it's been dry for a month, the hairpin is always greasy
- I hate the finish and, on occasion chicken out and lift before the beam
- From any position, spectators can only see a limited amount of the course
- There is no shelter for spectators
- The grass could usually do with a cut and when walking you have to keep your eyes down to avoid cow pats
- The paddock is tight, there's no room for a pagoda unless you're there at the crack of dawn - and certainly no room for a support vehicle
- It is known that some wily competitors rearrange the paddock layout on the Friday night to give themselves a nice position
- Access / egress to the site is less than perfect (Saturday morning / Sunday night)
- All the warnings about not pissing off the land owner kind of send the message that motorsport isn't really welcome there anyway (not how I remember it as a kid)
That's it and yes, I will compete there in the future, I'm sure. I stress, these are personal observations and the reasons why I, personally, don't enjoy it. I would never suggest that events stop being run at this venue - quite the contrary.
Cheers,
E
Numptie said:
... what is is about Fintray you don't like?
OK, maybe "dislike" was too strong. I think "don't enjoy" might have been better.
Now this is tough as I'm always harping on about suppoting Scottish motorsport and particularly in the NE. It sticks in my throat to knock any venue.
Nevertheless, here are a list of personal reasons why I "don't enjoy" Fintray.
- I've been off there more times than anywhere else
- It's slippy - especially in May but not much better in August (and I'm not overlooking the valiant efforts of the GAC volunteers in preparing as best they can)
- The track is affa narrow - you mostly drive in the middle all the way up
- I can never get the hairpin right
- It doesn't matter if it's been dry for a month, the hairpin is always greasy
- I hate the finish and, on occasion chicken out and lift before the beam
- From any position, spectators can only see a limited amount of the course
- There is no shelter for spectators
- The grass could usually do with a cut and when walking you have to keep your eyes down to avoid cow pats
- The paddock is tight, there's no room for a pagoda unless you're there at the crack of dawn - and certainly no room for a support vehicle
- It is known that some wily competitors rearrange the paddock layout on the Friday night to give themselves a nice position
- Access / egress to the site is less than perfect (Saturday morning / Sunday night)
- All the warnings about not pissing off the land owner kind of send the message that motorsport isn't really welcome there anyway (not how I remember it as a kid)
That's it and yes, I will compete there in the future, I'm sure. I stress, these are personal observations and the reasons why I, personally, don't enjoy it. I would never suggest that events stop being run at this venue - quite the contrary.
Cheers,
E
Was just interested as we're trying our best to make it better. I'll take this generally, not a response aimed at you personally, merely on points you've raised::
The paddock area will be extended - more tar. It is tight just now and we're trying to help this - the poor drainage at the bottom paddock is being improved so we can make better use of it.
The spectating isn't that bad - certainly compared to Doune and Forestburn.
The access road has been the bane of my spring - I put down 11 tonnes of hardcore and STILL the place is a mess.
The landowner is a decent person - he just doesn't like the folk who wander through his garden. ADMC did a good job of putting him off motorsport for a long time before GAC was formed and GAC are trying their hardest to rebuild his confidence - I think we are now winning.
I spend a lot of time cutting grass - JCB with flail cutter. We have bought new strimmers to help matters and we know that it can be quite bad - this is why we need as many people as possible at the workparties to get the place up to standard. Doune have to pay for contractors to do their work - which is why they can't afford new barriers along the track and at the Esses and also can't afford new timing gear.
GAC use volunteers which means our money can go on new timing gear, new tar, an extended paddock etc.
I know the hairpin is horrible. I am pushing for new tar there but I need competitors to raise this issue. If you want improvements to Fintray, then write to me for the newsletter or write to me to pass on to the committee.
I know you're not digging at GAC, and I'm certainly not digging at you but I'd hate to think anyone viewing this thread thought Fintray was substandard or that the club didn't care about it.
regards
t_t
t_t,
I'm wishing I hadn't brought it up. Your last reply makes me embarrassed to maybe have been seen to have criticized certain things that you and the club's other volunteers are clearly putting a great deal of effort and planning into. More power to your elbow mate.
Fintray and Alford remain the only two venues within easy reach of Aberdeen. As such they should be promoted and I apologise if it seems like I'm pissing on GAC's chips.
Again, the points I raise are purely personal and not meant to knock anyone or anything. There are more competitors and spectators who like Fintray than the number who don't - and that's great. It's a personal thing.
As you suggest, I'll write to you, when time allows, to put forward some constructive points.
Cheers,
E
I'm wishing I hadn't brought it up. Your last reply makes me embarrassed to maybe have been seen to have criticized certain things that you and the club's other volunteers are clearly putting a great deal of effort and planning into. More power to your elbow mate.
Fintray and Alford remain the only two venues within easy reach of Aberdeen. As such they should be promoted and I apologise if it seems like I'm pissing on GAC's chips.
Again, the points I raise are purely personal and not meant to knock anyone or anything. There are more competitors and spectators who like Fintray than the number who don't - and that's great. It's a personal thing.
As you suggest, I'll write to you, when time allows, to put forward some constructive points.
Cheers,
E
Kiltie said:
t_t,
I'm wishing I hadn't brought it up. Your last reply makes me embarrassed to maybe have been seen to have criticized certain things that you and the club's other volunteers are clearly putting a great deal of effort and planning into. More power to your elbow mate.
not at all. If we don't know of the problems, we can't solve them! I'm glad you've highlighted them!
Fintray has its limitations (track length and width being the main ones) and I'll be the first to admit to them. I think we need a competitor's questionnaire after next meeting to see what everyone really wants done.
Well How was Lossie then?
As usual I enjoyed Fintray and thanks to all at GAC who made it happen
Numptie's points re hairpin ('never get that right either) and Finish (2 "offs" after the finish yesterday)are not without substance. I'm not sure what can be done about the finish though - I think that's just an inherent part of the hillclimb
However, with the apparent increase in popularity of speed events North of the central belt it would be nice to be able add another venue to the calendar. Let's hope we can get a Lossie date that doesn't clash next year!
S'let
PS well done on class win Ali - 'pity DB wont let me in the marques class!
As usual I enjoyed Fintray and thanks to all at GAC who made it happen
Numptie's points re hairpin ('never get that right either) and Finish (2 "offs" after the finish yesterday)are not without substance. I'm not sure what can be done about the finish though - I think that's just an inherent part of the hillclimb
However, with the apparent increase in popularity of speed events North of the central belt it would be nice to be able add another venue to the calendar. Let's hope we can get a Lossie date that doesn't clash next year!
S'let
PS well done on class win Ali - 'pity DB wont let me in the marques class!
It was good thanks JP and all part of a graet weekend 
Steph and I set off for Lossie on Saturday afternoon - we had a room booked in the Skerry Brae Hotel. Drove through some horrible weather up the A96 to find Lossie bathed in sunshine. We actually had dinner outside!
After a walk on the beach, and a swift sedative we had an unusually early night.
Left the hotel on time and got to the base at about 07:00. We had to sign in and get passes before being escorted to the paddock. First of only a couple of minor niggles of the day - no paddock layout ... a free for all.
At this point, the weather wasn't looking good ... but it brightened up by mid morning and stayed sunny for the rest of the day. I've got a red snib today to prove it.
Scruteneering wasn't in-situ, it was actually in a hangar type building. I was a wee bit worried because the regs were obviously ones from Englandshire and made specific reference to 1A tyres and no aeroscreen in my class - but no problem
We weren't allowed to walk the course so there was a series of convoy sighting runs.
After a few hiccups with the starting procedure, things got going before too long. It was strange but it was a case of tipping up to the start in any order - just when you were ready. Not sure about that one. On one hand, it's nice to get the opportunity to watch other people in your class. On the other, at some times, there was a big queue and at others, nobody at all.
On a fully subscribed event, that'd make for slow going but with the entry only being forty or so, I actually got seven runs!!! (two practice, a re-run and four timed). Now that's good value in anybody's book.
The entry was quite varied with a few of the local rally boys in Mk2's and the like. There was one fella in a Skyline who was an utter hooligan drifting, smoking and squealing
Most interesting for me in the entry, was that space frame 'busa engined Z-cars mini. When I saw it in TRC magazine last month, I said; "I gotta get me one of them". Not so sure now. He lost it on a fairly flowing bend, got it sideways and rolled twice. Don't want to say too much but I'd like to know why it rolled - it didn't look to have hit a kerb or anything.
I think there were three or four single seaters. The Laws, the Robertsons and James Brimms were certainly there. JB got FTD.
Many of the usual suspects there as well who maybe didn't get a Fintray entry or fancied a change.
The only 7 type cars were (I think) Matthew, Lawrence Hoy and me.
The course was interesting with limitless latitude on most of the bends. Surface varied between tarmac and concrete and it was fine. It was nice to really push the car on a bit more than one does at the more twisty events.
Couldn't get any in-car footage (crown property / no photography) but Steph did manage to get some surreptitiously from the banking. I'll try to post some up later. IIRC, it consisted of ...
I think the total length was about 1,600m and FTD was about 48secs. I did a 57 and Matthew did a 53. He was really fast.
The class amalgamation they decided on seemed to lack logic. I was in a class with Lawrence Hoy and that white Davrian (GSX1100 engine) that was at Boyndie. Needless to say, Lawrence took the class but I was pretty pleased with the gap between us. Matthew was in the class above - and took that comfortably.
That's about it for a quick steam of consciousness recollection. All in all an enjoyable event for me.
It was a good effort for the organisers' inaugural event too - hats off to them.
A high heid'yin RAF fella was giving out the prizes and he said he saw no reason why it couldn't happen again next year. Fingers crossed that'll be the case and the date(s) will fit around other events.
Cheers,
Eric
>> Edited by Kiltie on Monday 15th August 17:09
Steph and I set off for Lossie on Saturday afternoon - we had a room booked in the Skerry Brae Hotel. Drove through some horrible weather up the A96 to find Lossie bathed in sunshine. We actually had dinner outside!
After a walk on the beach, and a swift sedative
we had an unusually early night. Left the hotel on time and got to the base at about 07:00. We had to sign in and get passes before being escorted to the paddock. First of only a couple of minor niggles of the day - no paddock layout ... a free for all.
At this point, the weather wasn't looking good ... but it brightened up by mid morning and stayed sunny for the rest of the day. I've got a red snib today to prove it.
Scruteneering wasn't in-situ, it was actually in a hangar type building. I was a wee bit worried because the regs were obviously ones from Englandshire and made specific reference to 1A tyres and no aeroscreen in my class - but no problem
We weren't allowed to walk the course so there was a series of convoy sighting runs.
After a few hiccups with the starting procedure, things got going before too long. It was strange but it was a case of tipping up to the start in any order - just when you were ready. Not sure about that one. On one hand, it's nice to get the opportunity to watch other people in your class. On the other, at some times, there was a big queue and at others, nobody at all.
On a fully subscribed event, that'd make for slow going but with the entry only being forty or so, I actually got seven runs!!! (two practice, a re-run and four timed). Now that's good value in anybody's book.
The entry was quite varied with a few of the local rally boys in Mk2's and the like. There was one fella in a Skyline who was an utter hooligan drifting, smoking and squealing
Most interesting for me in the entry, was that space frame 'busa engined Z-cars mini. When I saw it in TRC magazine last month, I said; "I gotta get me one of them". Not so sure now. He lost it on a fairly flowing bend, got it sideways and rolled twice. Don't want to say too much but I'd like to know why it rolled - it didn't look to have hit a kerb or anything.
I think there were three or four single seaters. The Laws, the Robertsons and James Brimms were certainly there. JB got FTD.
Many of the usual suspects there as well who maybe didn't get a Fintray entry or fancied a change.
The only 7 type cars were (I think) Matthew, Lawrence Hoy and me.
The course was interesting with limitless latitude on most of the bends. Surface varied between tarmac and concrete and it was fine. It was nice to really push the car on a bit more than one does at the more twisty events.
Couldn't get any in-car footage (crown property / no photography) but Steph did manage to get some surreptitiously from the banking. I'll try to post some up later. IIRC, it consisted of ...
- Start
- Small straight
- Round an island
- Medium straight
- Right / left combo
- Medium straight
- Left / right combo
- Medium to long straight
- Chicane
- Long straight
- Wide 90°ish left hander
- Medium straight
- Tightening 90°ish left hander
- Short straight
- Finish
I think the total length was about 1,600m and FTD was about 48secs. I did a 57 and Matthew did a 53. He was really fast.
The class amalgamation they decided on seemed to lack logic. I was in a class with Lawrence Hoy and that white Davrian (GSX1100 engine) that was at Boyndie. Needless to say, Lawrence took the class but I was pretty pleased with the gap between us. Matthew was in the class above - and took that comfortably.
That's about it for a quick steam of consciousness recollection. All in all an enjoyable event for me.
It was a good effort for the organisers' inaugural event too - hats off to them.
A high heid'yin RAF fella was giving out the prizes and he said he saw no reason why it couldn't happen again next year. Fingers crossed that'll be the case and the date(s) will fit around other events.
Cheers,
Eric
>> Edited by Kiltie on Monday 15th August 17:09
stiglet said:
As usual I enjoyed Fintray and thanks to all at GAC who made it happen
<snip>
S'let
PS well done on class win Ali - 'pity DB wont let me in the marques class!
I echo Stiglet's comments, a great weekend at Fintray and hope we can all have a go at Lossie also next year.
I found Saturday a little frustrating but with more experience (and a few brave pills) I think I started to get to grips with it on Sunday.
Good job they don't let you into the Marques class! Although I'm getting closer...
Cheers,
Ali
Edited to add link to results:
www.gac.org.uk/documents/FinRes14Aug05.pdf
>> Edited by alicrozier on Monday 15th August 19:00
OK, got the times through.
1) James Brims (Jedi) 45.94
2) Mike Law (OMS) 47.18
3) Dave Robertson (Ralt RT30) 49.12
4) Andrew Dawson (Megapin) 50.40
5) Rey Mackay (Metro 6R4) 53.30
6) Matthew Rae (MegaBusa) 53.65
10) Lawrence Hoy (CateringVan) 55.45
13) Eric Kiltie (MegaBlade) 57.73
Spoke to Steph last night and she made some points worthy of adding to to my observations above.
... and some further thoughts from me ...
I repeat though, cracking effort for a first go.
Cheers,
E
1) James Brims (Jedi) 45.94
2) Mike Law (OMS) 47.18
3) Dave Robertson (Ralt RT30) 49.12
4) Andrew Dawson (Megapin) 50.40
5) Rey Mackay (Metro 6R4) 53.30
6) Matthew Rae (MegaBusa) 53.65
10) Lawrence Hoy (CateringVan) 55.45
13) Eric Kiltie (MegaBlade) 57.73
Spoke to Steph last night and she made some points worthy of adding to to my observations above.
- To go for a slash, we had to walk through a hangar full of fighter jets
- In the 'ladies' there was a porno mag with nekid wimmin - she'd prefer one with nekid men
- The best place to watch was on top of a bund with grass banking - if it'd been wet, climbing up and down the bank would've been dangerous
- If it had rained, there was really nowhere to go
... and some further thoughts from me ...
- Not sure about spectators for future events with the requirement for everyone to be escorted to and from the base gate
- The only timing board was at the start so not visible to most spectators and definately not drivers - could maybe do with one at the finish and one elsewhere for spectators
- The speed trap was at the finish - it might be good to shift it to a nominal braking point on the longest straight
I repeat though, cracking effort for a first go.
Cheers,
E
Good to hear it was a success and I echo the comments that we should try to get Lossie and Fintray on separate dates. Maybe one one weekend, one the next so that thsoe who travel a long distance can make a holiday of their trip to the North east?
Who ran the Lossie event?
Ali: your car looked good at the hairpin on Sunday afternoon - one of the cleanest through (apex) and out of it. I think, and this is easy to say from standing outside the car, that you could get on the power earlier.
JP: I think it was your exhaust which managed to mangle the microphone on my mobile! I now have a BDA based ringtone though!! I am not exactly popular in the office now....!!
Messrs Dickson and Menzies were superb - if i'd been a spectator instead of a marshal, that would've been worth the entrance money alone.
Who ran the Lossie event?
Ali: your car looked good at the hairpin on Sunday afternoon - one of the cleanest through (apex) and out of it. I think, and this is easy to say from standing outside the car, that you could get on the power earlier.
JP: I think it was your exhaust which managed to mangle the microphone on my mobile! I now have a BDA based ringtone though!! I am not exactly popular in the office now....!!
Messrs Dickson and Menzies were superb - if i'd been a spectator instead of a marshal, that would've been worth the entrance money alone.
tuscan_thunder said:
Ali: your car looked good at the hairpin on Sunday afternoon - one of the cleanest through (apex) and out of it. I think, and this is easy to say from standing outside the car, that you could get on the power earlier.
Strange, I thought I was untidy there Sunday afternoon! The morning felt much quicker (although slower everywhere else).
I didn't feel I could be on the power much sooner but you might be right. 1st gear means it's really throttle sensitive and I was still getting lots of wheelspin up the hill to the finish!
That's one thing I'm finding about Hillclimbing, you don't get much opportunity to experiment with different lines etc. Oh to have 20 or so practice runs...
my practice at Fintray consists of horseing round in my JCB!! Bit different to the Elise!
I marshalled at hairpin all day Sunday and studied folks' lines - Jonathan Rarity was very good, as was Iain in his 7 Series BM! I know what you mean about being caught between wheelspin in 1st and bogging down in 2nd - my Fiesta was a nightmare- FWD and no slip diff did not a happy combination make!
I marshalled at hairpin all day Sunday and studied folks' lines - Jonathan Rarity was very good, as was Iain in his 7 Series BM! I know what you mean about being caught between wheelspin in 1st and bogging down in 2nd - my Fiesta was a nightmare- FWD and no slip diff did not a happy combination make!
tt
Obviously you will not remember all the cars you saw at the hairpin but if you recall mine and care to comment I would appreciate any (constructive)comments.
It was the blue Sylva Striker No 35, to be honest I never feel I get it right and am usually in panic mode on the way in and wheelspin mode on the way out.
ta
CT
Obviously you will not remember all the cars you saw at the hairpin but if you recall mine and care to comment I would appreciate any (constructive)comments.
It was the blue Sylva Striker No 35, to be honest I never feel I get it right and am usually in panic mode on the way in and wheelspin mode on the way out.
ta
CT
Corpulent Tosser said:
tt
Obviously you will not remember all the cars you saw at the hairpin but if you recall mine and care to comment I would appreciate any (constructive)comments.
It was the blue Sylva Striker No 35, to be honest I never feel I get it right and am usually in panic mode on the way in and wheelspin mode on the way out.
ta
CT
can't really remember to be honest. I think everyone feels they get it wrong, but from the marshal's post on the corner, it is easy to see who is doing well and who isn't.
I really can't remember how you did but the way round in a RWD car seems to be to swing out wide on the approach to the corner, take an early-ish apex (there's a wobbly stone which you should aim for but just miss) then get on the power as early as you can - because you've taken an early apex there's plenty of room for oversteer/understeer on way out. Try to get the car straight or as straight as possible as early as possible.
Use the track right up to the kerbstones on the way out if it's wet. If it's dry (as dry as that part ever is) use the kerbs.
If you ever get a chance to (ie you don't have a run coming up) watch J Whyte in his Pilbeam - for a big car with not a lot of lock he takes the corner very well. Mr Nicol snr in the Caterham is also good (though less so most recently) but it is obv difficult for you to watch him. Ali, despite his protestations, if very good at the hairpin too. Next time, if I'm not competing (new car is bought but competition prep not started) I'll film some folk if you want. Sure plenty of folk could make use of it.
Cheers tt
I watched a few fast guys Wallace/Gary and they seem to get the car fairly straight before getting the power down, like they are feathering the throttle most of the way round then flooring it when the car is pointing the right way. Maybe they aren't but that was how it looked to me.
As you say everyone I speak to seems to think they are getting it wrong.
I am sure there are many who would like to see themselves and others on film to compare lines/techniques, I know I would.
Thanks for the advise and I will be sure to look for the "wobbly stone" next time I walk the track.
CT
I watched a few fast guys Wallace/Gary and they seem to get the car fairly straight before getting the power down, like they are feathering the throttle most of the way round then flooring it when the car is pointing the right way. Maybe they aren't but that was how it looked to me.
As you say everyone I speak to seems to think they are getting it wrong.
I am sure there are many who would like to see themselves and others on film to compare lines/techniques, I know I would.
Thanks for the advise and I will be sure to look for the "wobbly stone" next time I walk the track.
CT
Corpulent Tosser said:
Cheers tt
I watched a few fast guys Wallace/Gary and they seem to get the car fairly straight before getting the power down, like they are feathering the throttle most of the way round then flooring it when the car is pointing the right way. Maybe they aren't but that was how it looked to me.
As you say everyone I speak to seems to think they are getting it wrong.
I am sure there are many who would like to see themselves and others on film to compare lines/techniques, I know I would.
Thanks for the advise and I will be sure to look for the "wobbly stone" next time I walk the track.
CT
yup, I think gary and wallace do feed the power in mid corner befor nailing it.
I hope that we can make a club DVD of Fintray and Alford. I had a shot of a video from the early 90s and it was good stuff.
I know a few folk have onboard stuff too so we could probably combine onboard with outside the car stuff. If we can get a minimum number to purchase we might be able to get a batch made and get it professionally done. I'll look into it.
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