Hypocrisy of EU debate
Discussion
Can anyone enlighten me about why the SNP campaigned so vigorously to separate from the UK, yet is campaigning just as vigorously to remain part of the EU? The (old) argument was about not wanting to be ruled/governed by another country, yet the new argument seems to be the polar opposite.
Now, while David Cameron is at least consistent, arguing for maintaining the status quo, some of the Tories are being just as hypocritical, just the other way around.
We want all the oil, apparently, but we're not allowed to burn it. Sell it on like a good crack dealer who never uses his own product. That'll save the planet.
By the way, if anyone thought that there is no wake turbulence behind wind turbines, (I was one, for sure), this photo shows how wrong we were. Taken by the chopper pilot flying me out to the rig in Denmark:
Now, while David Cameron is at least consistent, arguing for maintaining the status quo, some of the Tories are being just as hypocritical, just the other way around.
We want all the oil, apparently, but we're not allowed to burn it. Sell it on like a good crack dealer who never uses his own product. That'll save the planet.
By the way, if anyone thought that there is no wake turbulence behind wind turbines, (I was one, for sure), this photo shows how wrong we were. Taken by the chopper pilot flying me out to the rig in Denmark:
In general the SNP are bonkers, but there is an enormous difference between being governed from Westminster and being a member of the EU. Westminster is hugely more important than the EU when it comes to determining social, economic, foreign and defence policy. The EU is a trade organisation first and foremost. Westminster is the government of a nation state. There's really no comparison.
Mad Jock said:
Can anyone enlighten me about why the SNP campaigned so vigorously to separate from the UK, yet is campaigning just as vigorously to remain part of the EU? The (old) argument was about not wanting to be ruled/governed by another country, yet the new argument seems to be the polar opposite.
Well their indyref was based on this idea - so it's not a new inconsistency.I always felt that it was a failing that Scottish independence is tied in with an implicit dependency on the EU - and effectively subject to the whims of Chancellor Merkel and Germany - who we don't vote for in preference for a UK parliament for which we do vote.
However I do think that anybody picking on the SNP and accusing them of being bonkers should look outside Scotland because if they're bonkers then they're not the only ones - politics outside Scotland in the UK, Europe and US are also quite strange right now.
I'm not in favour of an independent Scotland, and I'm not keen on being outside of the EU. What I'm having difficulty working out is whether it would be better to be a) an independent Scotland in the EU, or b) part of the UK outside of the EU.
At the moment I'm thinking a), but can't quite quantify that. Although which is the bigger trading partner, guess it's rUK?
With a bit of luck come July we'll still be a part of the EU, and this conundrum will purely be hypothetical.
At the moment I'm thinking a), but can't quite quantify that. Although which is the bigger trading partner, guess it's rUK?
With a bit of luck come July we'll still be a part of the EU, and this conundrum will purely be hypothetical.
downthepub said:
I'm not in favour of an independent Scotland, and I'm not keen on being outside of the EU. What I'm having difficulty working out is whether it would be better to be a) an independent Scotland in the EU, or b) part of the UK outside of the EU.
At the moment I'm thinking a), but can't quite quantify that. Although which is the bigger trading partner, guess it's rUK?
With a bit of luck come July we'll still be a part of the EU, and this conundrum will purely be hypothetical.
No empire lasts forever including the EU and when the inevitable happens would you still want to be a part of it or would you want to be as distant as possible?At the moment I'm thinking a), but can't quite quantify that. Although which is the bigger trading partner, guess it's rUK?
With a bit of luck come July we'll still be a part of the EU, and this conundrum will purely be hypothetical.
The argument is perfectly valid. Wanting to be masters of our own destiny should apply whether seceding from the UK or the EU. Either organisation or state can and will apply rulings and laws over which we Scots have no control, therefore the whole independence argument still applies. How independent does the SNP want us to be? The choice that Queen Nicola 1st is offering is neither.
Mad Jock said:
The argument is perfectly valid. Wanting to be masters of our own destiny should apply whether seceding from the UK or the EU. Either organisation or state can and will apply rulings and laws over which we Scots have no control, therefore the whole independence argument still applies. How independent does the SNP want us to be? The choice that Queen Nicola 1st is offering is neither.
It's really not, you're grossly over-simplifying things because you have an issue with the SNP. We Scots have no more say in "rulings and laws" in the EU than in the UK because we are not an independent nation, we get whatever Westminster get, whether it's what they want or not. If Scotland was an independent nation we'd at least have our own say in EU debates, rather than it being filtered through Westminster first.European Union and United Kingdom of Great Britain are totally not the same thing.
8bit said:
If Scotland was an independent nation we'd at least have our own say in EU debates, rather than it being filtered through Westminster first.
I don't think we'd be heard at all within the EU as a separate nation.We actually have a louder voice as part of the UK as a whole.
8bit said:
European Union and United Kingdom of Great Britain are totally not the same thing.
No they're not - but from the position of being independent from the UK but within the EU and therefore more dependent on its rules, regulations, currency, and other institutions there is a big question mark as to whether independence in Europe as a tiny nation is really independence.My feeling is that the Scottish independence and EU have got wrapped together artificially because the EU has been presented as a safety net and way forward for Scotland if it were separate from the UK without any real thought as to the ramifications and the reality of Scotland's size and influence. Basically we would go from being 8% or 9% of a country that is a major world economy to being what? say 0.5% of a broken half baked creaky federation.
Dryce said:
We actually have a louder voice as part of the UK as a whole.
I very much doubt that personally but there we go. Scotland's interests in Europe will only be represented if they also coincide with Westminster's interests in my view. Same goes for Wales, Northern Ireland and anywhere apart from the South East of England.Dryce said:
My feeling is that the Scottish independence and EU have got wrapped together artificially because the EU has been presented as a safety net and way forward for Scotland if it were separate from the UK without any real thought as to the ramifications and the reality of Scotland's size and influence. Basically we would go from being 8% or 9% of a country that is a major world economy to being what? say 0.5% of a broken half baked creaky federation.
I'm not sure I see it that way. I should probably clarify - I'm not pro-European and I'm not making a case for EU membership, I'm just trying to separate the two things out. I'm all for a common economic market but I don't see why we (or any other European nation) should have the EU enforcing laws on them so I'm a bit torn on the EU membership thing personally. It did irk me a bit during Indyref (as does the term "Indyref") that a big thing was made about EU membership being retained when we were talking about independence for Scotland. I thought there was a good enough case for the Scottish economy to stand on its' own two feet without needing the safety net.8bit said:
Dryce said:
We actually have a louder voice as part of the UK as a whole.
I very much doubt that personally but there we go. Scotland's interests in Europe will only be represented if they also coincide with Westminster's interests in my view. Same goes for Wales, Northern Ireland and anywhere apart from the South East of England.Dryce said:
My feeling is that the Scottish independence and EU have got wrapped together artificially because the EU has been presented as a safety net and way forward for Scotland if it were separate from the UK without any real thought as to the ramifications and the reality of Scotland's size and influence. Basically we would go from being 8% or 9% of a country that is a major world economy to being what? say 0.5% of a broken half baked creaky federation.
I'm not sure I see it that way. I should probably clarify - I'm not pro-European and I'm not making a case for EU membership, I'm just trying to separate the two things out. I'm all for a common economic market but I don't see why we (or any other European nation) should have the EU enforcing laws on them so I'm a bit torn on the EU membership thing personally. It did irk me a bit during Indyref (as does the term "Indyref") that a big thing was made about EU membership being retained when we were talking about independence for Scotland. I thought there was a good enough case for the Scottish economy to stand on its' own two feet without needing the safety net.That being said, as in my original point, I also take issue with the politicians who yammered on about being better together, and yet are now yammering on about leaving the EU. So my original point stands - hypocrisy.
Mad Jock said:
So your really saying what I have been saying. An Independent Scotland will have little or no influence over any laws enforced on us by the EU. Therefore out of the frying pan and into the fire.
Nope, that's not what I said at all, you're manipulating my words. I said that Scotland leaving the UK and the UK leaving the EU were two totally different things, which is a matter of fact. I then said my view was that the EU would be better if it was just an economic trading union rather than trying to be a central government, which is my opinion.Mad Jock said:
That being said, as in my original point, I also take issue with the politicians who yammered on about being better together, and yet are now yammering on about leaving the EU. So my original point stands - hypocrisy.
No arguments from me on that one.Mad Jock said:
That being said, as in my original point, I also take issue with the politicians who yammered on about being better together, and yet are now yammering on about leaving the EU. So my original point stands - hypocrisy.
The EU is not a single nation. It doesn't speak a single language. It doesn't have a single jusridiction. It has internal borders. It has more than one currency. It has more than one military. The individual states operate separate and sometimes cop[eting foreign policiesIt's not in the least hypocritical to want your united country out of the EU.
OTOH - to run an independence campaign based on having to sign up to the EU on more onerous terms and dependence on the EU? Well that can seem rather strange. Particularly given Scotland's peripheral location and geographic disconnection to the rest of the EU.
Dryce said:
The EU is not a single nation. It doesn't speak a single language. It doesn't have a single jusridiction. It has internal borders. It has more than one currency. It has more than one military. The individual states operate separate and sometimes cop[eting foreign policies
It's not in the least hypocritical to want your united country out of the EU.
OTOH - to run an independence campaign based on having to sign up to the EU on more onerous terms and dependence on the EU? Well that can seem rather strange. Particularly given Scotland's peripheral location and geographic disconnection to the rest of the EU.
What the EU is and what it aspires to be are slightly different. The EU parliament conducts its business in English, although if the French had their way, well, we know what we would be speaking by now. The desire for a common currency has only been knocked back by a few dissenters such as ourselves and Denmark. It is well known that the EU want harmonisation in nearly everything, therefore becoming an EU Superstate. The military has been jigged around to attempt an EU type of NATO, but so far failed.It's not in the least hypocritical to want your united country out of the EU.
OTOH - to run an independence campaign based on having to sign up to the EU on more onerous terms and dependence on the EU? Well that can seem rather strange. Particularly given Scotland's peripheral location and geographic disconnection to the rest of the EU.
The very first time that I was old enough to vote, it was in the referendum to join the "Common Market", as that is what was sold to us. A large trading group. No mention of a Parliament, no mention of unelected Commissioners, no single currency, no mucking about with imposing laws that we didn't want. It was a chance to stick one to the French, the ungrateful nation who, through De Gaulle, kept saying "non" to our membership after bailing them out of Nazi occupation.
So, it seems that we want the same thing. Get back to the original ideal of a common trade policy, but dump the peripheral stuff that seems to suit certain politicians and lawmakers (otherwise they won't have jobs). Stop pandering to the French and close the Strasbourg Parliament, at the very least.
Do I have an issue with the French? Perhaps. They are very good at looking after their own interests above all others, and if you're French, that is a good thing. I wish that our own politicians were so bold. But not while pontificating that everyone else should obey all the new laws except them (unless it suits them). This is the nation that takes offence at our naming of Waterloo Station and Trafalgar Square, but seem immune to the hypocrisy of the Gare D'Austerlitz.
So, yes, you are correct in that the EU is made up of a disparate group of nations, but the Grand Plan is that the disparity should be eliminated, and Brussels will control all of our lives. What David Cameron has tried, but failed to achieve, was a dilution of that power, and the retention of more of our sovereign rights. I'm not sure where this will lead us, but I suspect the status quo at the very least.
In or out? I've not made my mind up yet, despite all that I've said. The cost of leaving may well be too high, so we take our lumps and live with it. That's not saying that I would be any happier.
Orchid1 said:
Because lets be honest if they got full independence and inevitably balls things up beyond repair they'll need the EU there to bail them out just like Greece.
That actually makes sense, they (SNP) wouldn't want to go cap in hand to Westminster but they could insist on an EU bail out, assuming of course Scotland was actually in the EU post-independence.You can't compare the independence of Scotland from Westminster and leaving the EU - two utterly different set of circumstances.
Would Scotland be better off as part of the UK but out of the EU or out of the UK but in the EU [and Rangers supporters who cannot think for themselves need not answer...]
I know which I would prefer!
The real hypocrisy is of course the 'out' campaign using the EXACT same arguments that they were greeting about the YES campaign using as unionists in the independence debate!
Would Scotland be better off as part of the UK but out of the EU or out of the UK but in the EU [and Rangers supporters who cannot think for themselves need not answer...]
I know which I would prefer!
The real hypocrisy is of course the 'out' campaign using the EXACT same arguments that they were greeting about the YES campaign using as unionists in the independence debate!
Edited by ViperPict on Sunday 6th March 15:43
ViperPict said:
The real hypocrisy is of course the 'out' campaign using the EXACT same arguments that they were greeting about the YES campaign using as unionists in the independence debate!
I think there is a similarity and it's nothing to do with hypocrisy.The 'out'/'yes' campaign in the indyref had the *incumbent* SNP Scottish gov at Holyrood backing it.
The 'in'/'yes ???' campaign in the EUref has the incumbent Tory UK gov trying to set itself up to back it.
There are also similarities in terms of the way the consequences of a separation are being played up - but they're happening earlier in the EUref campaign.
The other similarity is that the main opposition (ie. Labour) seem to be sidelined again in EUref just as they seemed to get sidelined in the indyref.
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