Where to get Decent oil & Decent Prices
Discussion
mikey k said:
I need to do some 3 monthly oil changes on my supercharged S2000.
So I need a decent place to get decent oil from in the North West.
Thinking of Motul or Mobil.
Any ideas?
Try Millers, honestly superior to all I have tried and all who use it would not use anything else. Opie Oils dont sell it.So I need a decent place to get decent oil from in the North West.
Thinking of Motul or Mobil.
Any ideas?
http://www.millersoils.net/
Paul--C said:
mikey k said:
I need to do some 3 monthly oil changes on my supercharged S2000.
So I need a decent place to get decent oil from in the North West.
Thinking of Motul or Mobil.
Any ideas?
Try Millers, honestly superior to all I have tried and all who use it would not use anything else. Opie Oils dont sell it.So I need a decent place to get decent oil from in the North West.
Thinking of Motul or Mobil.
Any ideas?
http://www.millersoils.net/
http://www.bansheemotorsport.co.uk/catalog/index.p...
Been pretty good so far
mikey k said:
I know the Opie guys
I was hoping for their product range and prices locally to avoid the carriage charge
I run some group buys for a club in the NW, where I either meet Opie at a show or get the stuff delivered to one address and distribute at meets, we have just done one.I was hoping for their product range and prices locally to avoid the carriage charge
Worked out at £31.25 for 5 litres of Silkolene Pro. (£250 for 8 x 5litres)
Why do you need 3 month oil changes, even on a 400bhp 2 litre turbo charged engine the Silkolene lasts for 10k including trackdays, the club I am in paid for independent analysis on lots of oil samples from different manufacturers, at different mielage intervals and changing too often was not just unnecessary, but also counter productive.
Scottie - NW said:
mikey k said:
I know the Opie guys
I was hoping for their product range and prices locally to avoid the carriage charge
I run some group buys for a club in the NW, where I either meet Opie at a show or get the stuff delivered to one address and distribute at meets, we have just done one.I was hoping for their product range and prices locally to avoid the carriage charge
Worked out at £31.25 for 5 litres of Silkolene Pro. (£250 for 8 x 5litres)
Why do you need 3 month oil changes, even on a 400bhp 2 litre turbo charged engine the Silkolene lasts for 10k including trackdays, the club I am in paid for independent analysis on lots of oil samples from different manufacturers, at different mielage intervals and changing too often was not just unnecessary, but also counter productive.
Paul--C said:
Scottie - NW said:
mikey k said:
I know the Opie guys
I was hoping for their product range and prices locally to avoid the carriage charge
I run some group buys for a club in the NW, where I either meet Opie at a show or get the stuff delivered to one address and distribute at meets, we have just done one.I was hoping for their product range and prices locally to avoid the carriage charge
Worked out at £31.25 for 5 litres of Silkolene Pro. (£250 for 8 x 5litres)
Why do you need 3 month oil changes, even on a 400bhp 2 litre turbo charged engine the Silkolene lasts for 10k including trackdays, the club I am in paid for independent analysis on lots of oil samples from different manufacturers, at different mielage intervals and changing too often was not just unnecessary, but also counter productive.
If you have a poorly mapped car, you should adddress the mapping, not the oil change frequency!
The above is fact based, we sent off samples of several major oil companies products to a proper analysis lab, at lots of different mileages from different types of driving styles and levels of tune.
The good synthetic oils where all proved to be providing more than adequate protection at 10k, and this was from a car that had done some trackdays as well, and having been driven by one of this years Time Attack drivers, it was driven very hard.
I still think 3 month changes are overkill, I'd advise 6 monthly (assuming typical mileages) at most. If a good quality sycnthetic oil can not last 6 months or 6k, there is a problem somewhere else!!
I have so much mechanical sympathy that I have passed 100k miles, with the last 40k on various stages of tune ranging up to 350bhp on a "stock" engine that produces 197bhp out of the factory. I have been following a similar process for 17 years of tuned cars, and whenever I've had an engine apart it has been in great condition.
I think having oil pressure, oil temp, water temp and knock gauges, plus correct mapping are the key to preventing problems, and use good quality components and oils when you change them.
I'll read the above link later, I can't link you to the results I use as they are in a paying members section only!
Scottie - NW said:
I change my oil every 6 months, about every 5 or 6k. For a good quality true synthetic oil (ester) this is fine.
If you have a poorly mapped car, you should adddress the mapping, not the oil change frequency!
The above is fact based, we sent off samples of several major oil companies products to a proper analysis lab, at lots of different mileages from different types of driving styles and levels of tune.
The good synthetic oils where all proved to be providing more than adequate protection at 10k, and this was from a car that had done some trackdays as well, and having been driven by one of this years Time Attack drivers, it was driven very hard.
I still think 3 month changes are overkill, I'd advise 6 monthly (assuming typical mileages) at most. If a good quality sycnthetic oil can not last 6 months or 6k, there is a problem somewhere else!!
I have so much mechanical sympathy that I have passed 100k miles, with the last 40k on various stages of tune ranging up to 350bhp on a "stock" engine that produces 197bhp out of the factory. I have been following a similar process for 17 years of tuned cars, and whenever I've had an engine apart it has been in great condition.
I think having oil pressure, oil temp, water temp and knock gauges, plus correct mapping are the key to preventing problems, and use good quality components and oils when you change them.
I'll read the above link later, I can't link you to the results I use as they are in a paying members section only!
I earned my living racing on 2 and 4 wheels for many years and have built so many of my own engines I have lost count. Since retiring I have won things such as Ultimate Street Car and Ultimate Fast Car outright. I have owned many seriously tuned cars and currently have a circa 1000+ English as opposed to Japanese bullsh*t BHP from a stock engine that produced 400 BHP which several of the NW PH members have had a ride in (Ask bob1179). I use only the best lubricants available, having tested them back to back on an engine dyno hence my current choice of Millers. With respect you are wrong and will cost the good people on here money if they take any notice of you.If you have a poorly mapped car, you should adddress the mapping, not the oil change frequency!
The above is fact based, we sent off samples of several major oil companies products to a proper analysis lab, at lots of different mileages from different types of driving styles and levels of tune.
The good synthetic oils where all proved to be providing more than adequate protection at 10k, and this was from a car that had done some trackdays as well, and having been driven by one of this years Time Attack drivers, it was driven very hard.
I still think 3 month changes are overkill, I'd advise 6 monthly (assuming typical mileages) at most. If a good quality sycnthetic oil can not last 6 months or 6k, there is a problem somewhere else!!
I have so much mechanical sympathy that I have passed 100k miles, with the last 40k on various stages of tune ranging up to 350bhp on a "stock" engine that produces 197bhp out of the factory. I have been following a similar process for 17 years of tuned cars, and whenever I've had an engine apart it has been in great condition.
I think having oil pressure, oil temp, water temp and knock gauges, plus correct mapping are the key to preventing problems, and use good quality components and oils when you change them.
I'll read the above link later, I can't link you to the results I use as they are in a paying members section only!
Edited by Paul--C on Monday 9th June 19:08
Paul--C said:
I have owned many seriously tuned cars and currently have a circa 1000+ English as opposed to Japanese bullsh*t BHP
I use only the best lubricants available, having tested them back to back on an engine dyno hence my current choice of Millers.
Regards your accusation of Japanese bullsh*t bhp, could you please enlighten us to a non bullsh*t method of measuring it.I use only the best lubricants available, having tested them back to back on an engine dyno hence my current choice of Millers.
I have used the Prosport Bosch Rolling Road, and also Dyno Dynamics Rolling Roads at TEG Sport in the Lake District and Dyno Dynamics on the Wirral, which are two respected rolling roads. If you think 350bhp is beyond a well mapped 2 litre turbo engine running a GT2871 turbo at 1.4bar, with Nismo 555 injectors and all other supporting mods that is your opinion. How do you explain the Skyline that made 750bhp in front of our eyes, perhaps it was the trainee using an Etch a Sketch linked up to the projector LOL.
The fact that you suggest my measuring method is bullsh*t when you don't even know what it is, says a lot about you. If you had asked how I measured my bhp, taken on board my method and then offered advice as to why it was bullsh*t I'd have listened.
I can only take the rest of your "advice" with the same level of seriousness.
Regards back to back oil testing on a dyno, one point I would raise is that just because one oil may produce less friction and give a better result, does not mean it will last better through temp cycles over a given period of time. I will however be happy to listen to your methods and results BEFORE I accuse them of being bullsh*t.
I think your engine is a very very extreme one though, and bearing in mind the original request was for a Honda VTEC with a Supercharger, I don't think your oil change frequency will necessarily apply to that engine. I think my experiences are much closer. I never said you should change oil at 10k, just that test samples we did at 10k proved good. I would still advise 6 month or 6k changes, whichever come sooner, and pay the £20 or so for analysis of the sample if you are worried.
Look at the absolute reliability of the VTEC engines, and I agree Millers is top stuff, I rate it as highly as I do Silkolene for my application. You have to bear in mind though that Japanese engines tend to have many less failures than M car engines, compare a VTEC to a E39 M5 engine or a E46 M3 one, two cars that I would love, but whenever I read the areas on PH there are so many failures it puts me off, bearing in mind the engine rebuild cost as well - my pockets are not that deep.
If you are as experienced as you say you are, then providing you don't dismiss my methods before you know them ;-) I would be more than happy for you to list all your expriences with different engines and oils, as my previous experience has been mostly Japanese for the last 10 years, with Fords before that.
Cheers,
Scott.
P.S. Will your car be at TOTB this year, I seem to remember this is more often than not won by Japanse bullsh*t BHP cars, only joking :-) Would love to see you car if you can birng it down to a meet.
I thought I'd explain the method used by the SX Owners Club for oil analysis, and am happy to bring the results to the next PH Meet.
Some of us where changing oil every 3k or between trackdays, and some thought it was a waste of money with the quality of todays top oils. It was decided it would be an excellent use of club resources, to do our own independent analysis for our cars, and either save us some money in the long run or short run depending upon results.
Here is some info from the thread, explaining oil analysis :-
What is Oil Analysis?
It is the detailed inspection of the oil that comes out of your engine when you do an oil change. A number of things are checked and they fall into 3 catagories.
Oil Condition - This is the general condition of the oil and checks to see if it contains water or fuel, how much it has oxydised, the viscosity and the TBN and TAN.
Additive Content - Measures additive concentration of the oil
Metallic Contamination - Measure the amount of metal particles in the oil to signify wear, elements measured include Iron, Copper, Tin, Aluminum and Lead.
Why Do I Need Oil Analysis?
Oil analysis is 2 fold, firstly it gives you a good insight into the condition of your engine. Are your bearings shot? Is your head gasket going? This can assist in preventative maintenance (bearing change instead of a crank regrind at a later date)
Secondly it tells you how your oils performing, are you changing it too often or not soon enough? This can save you money in the long run (how much will doing 6-8k changes instead of 2-3k save you if you do 20k a year )
How Much Does It Cost?
The club has managed to get a full suite analysis done for only £28 per sample. This normally cost around £75-100 a go ( the anaylsis advertised for £20-25 on various websites is the basic test which is nowhere near as comprehensive)
Back to me (Scottie) now :- We have a spreadsheet with all the results obtained from the above exercise for the following oils -
CASTROL RS 10w60
MOBIL 1 M/SPORT 15w50
HALFORDS M/SPORT 5w50
SILKOLENE PRO S 10w50
SILKOLENE PRO S 5w40
TEXACO HAVOLINE 5w40
SHELL HELIX 5w40
VALVOLINE SYNPOWER 5w40
The spreadsheet contains the full results of 23 samples with each analysis on a seperate line, listing engine type, mileage on engine at test point, mileage on oil sample tested, and full analysis results, plus a recommendation.
These are all the results headings below, as you can see it's a long spreadshet with approx 40 results for each oil sample.
Total Miles Oil Miles Engine Member Oilbrand NA SI AL CR CU FE PB SN MO AG MN TI V BA CA MG P B ZN NI LI K ZR CD S W KV40 KV100 WATER OCI SOOT TBN TAN177 Interpretation
We also have the full data for the above oils, when fresh, to compare the used samples against.
Mileage on engines tested ranged from 6k to 128k, mileage of oil samples ranged from 3k to 14k (one brave soul who didn't change his oil in the name of research).
I can't post this information up without the club permission as they own the results, but I am very happy to bring the spreadsheets to the next NW meet to show people, PaulC you are very welcome to see them to comment on.
I felt it was important to highlight that the oil change recommendations we stick to are proven by over a years research by 23 members having their own oil analysed.
Hope that helps, as there is so much internet bullsh*t on this matter, it's nice to see some factual anaylsis.
Scott.
Scottie - NW said:
Paul--C said:
I have owned many seriously tuned cars and currently have a circa 1000+ English as opposed to Japanese bullsh*t BHP
I use only the best lubricants available, having tested them back to back on an engine dyno hence my current choice of Millers.
Regards your accusation of Japanese bullsh*t bhp, could you please enlighten us to a non bullsh*t method of measuring it.I use only the best lubricants available, having tested them back to back on an engine dyno hence my current choice of Millers.
I have used the Prosport Bosch Rolling Road, and also Dyno Dynamics Rolling Roads at TEG Sport in the Lake District and Dyno Dynamics on the Wirral, which are two respected rolling roads. If you think 350bhp is beyond a well mapped 2 litre turbo engine running a GT2871 turbo at 1.4bar, with Nismo 555 injectors and all other supporting mods that is your opinion. How do you explain the Skyline that made 750bhp in front of our eyes, perhaps it was the trainee using an Etch a Sketch linked up to the projector LOL.
The fact that you suggest my measuring method is bullsh*t when you don't even know what it is, says a lot about you. If you had asked how I measured my bhp, taken on board my method and then offered advice as to why it was bullsh*t I'd have listened.
I can only take the rest of your "advice" with the same level of seriousness.
Regards back to back oil testing on a dyno, one point I would raise is that just because one oil may produce less friction and give a better result, does not mean it will last better through temp cycles over a given period of time. I will however be happy to listen to your methods and results BEFORE I accuse them of being bullsh*t.
I think your engine is a very very extreme one though, and bearing in mind the original request was for a Honda VTEC with a Supercharger, I don't think your oil change frequency will necessarily apply to that engine. I think my experiences are much closer. I never said you should change oil at 10k, just that test samples we did at 10k proved good. I would still advise 6 month or 6k changes, whichever come sooner, and pay the £20 or so for analysis of the sample if you are worried.
Look at the absolute reliability of the VTEC engines, and I agree Millers is top stuff, I rate it as highly as I do Silkolene for my application. You have to bear in mind though that Japanese engines tend to have many less failures than M car engines, compare a VTEC to a E39 M5 engine or a E46 M3 one, two cars that I would love, but whenever I read the areas on PH there are so many failures it puts me off, bearing in mind the engine rebuild cost as well - my pockets are not that deep.
If you are as experienced as you say you are, then providing you don't dismiss my methods before you know them ;-) I would be more than happy for you to list all your expriences with different engines and oils, as my previous experience has been mostly Japanese for the last 10 years, with Fords before that.
Cheers,
Scott.
P.S. Will your car be at TOTB this year, I seem to remember this is more often than not won by Japanse bullsh*t BHP cars, only joking :-) Would love to see you car if you can birng it down to a meet.
Rolling roads are fine for a guide in testing 'before and after' modifications, and only then if you have no mechanical sympathy IMHO due to the unusual stresses it puts on engines and transmissions, but not as an accurate measurement of power. The fact that crank / flywheel power is calculated immediately negates it. The many variables in measuring at the rear wheels is also the reason that is inaccurate too, try increasing or decreasing tyre pressures 10psi between runs for just one example. No way can any rolling road recreate 'on road' conditions, even if using MIRA's airflow facilities. If they were accurate organisations such as the FIA would accept their figures. They dont.
Hub Dynos are more accurate but not as accurate as Engine Dynos, ie engine out of car, the method I have always used.
A far better test of performance than any power measurement is to compete hence my building (once again) a car to do it. Yes you should see it at TOTB in 2009. and Santa Pod / York Raceway.
To conclude, I was not initially accusing your power figures as being bull, but was simply stating that based on my experience your advise on oil changing was incorrect.
Paul--C said:
Rolling roads are fine for a guide in testing 'before and after' modifications, and only then if you have no mechanical sympathy IMHO due to the unusual stresses it puts on engines and transmissions, but not as an accurate measurement of power. The fact that crank / flywheel power is calculated immediately negates it. The many variables in measuring at the rear wheels is also the reason that is inaccurate too, try increasing or decreasing tyre pressures 10psi between runs for just one example. No way can any rolling road recreate 'on road' conditions, even if using MIRA's airflow facilities. If they were accurate organisations such as the FIA would accept their figures. They dont.
Hub Dynos are more accurate but not as accurate as Engine Dynos, ie engine out of car, the method I have always used.
A far better test of performance than any power measurement is to compete hence my building (once again) a car to do it. Yes you should see it at TOTB in 2009. and Santa Pod / York Raceway.
Ah the Rolling Road debate LOL, yes there have been many a long thread/debate on this issue.Hub Dynos are more accurate but not as accurate as Engine Dynos, ie engine out of car, the method I have always used.
A far better test of performance than any power measurement is to compete hence my building (once again) a car to do it. Yes you should see it at TOTB in 2009. and Santa Pod / York Raceway.
I agree with you, engine dyno's are great, and even hub dyno's are better than a standrard RR, but for those of us who are not having our engines rebuilt it is a rather expensive way to prove BHP figures! I'm trying to obtain good power and torque without opening up the engine, so am using stock crank, rods, pistons etc. Even have original head gasket, and am trying to change cams and rockers with uprated valve springs but without taking the head off at the moment.
I try to stick to Dyno Dynamics rollers, as I beleive they give fairly accurate figures, based on results of engines measured on engine dyno's and then installed in the car and measured on the DD RR. Yes, they are not perfect, but they give us a reasonably accurate figure for the money spent, and are useful for measuring fuelling and boost on the power and torque graphs. Most useful as you say when using the same ones for before and after comparisons.
Measuring power on the track depends a lot on the driver though doesn't it? At TOTB etc a very good driver could make a worse car beat an average club driver I'd have thought, with better technique and faster launches etc?
What do you mean by unusual stresses on the car, and lack of mechanical sympathy on RR?
I am still to be convinced though that a VTEC even when supercharged needs oil changes more often then 6months/6k when using an oil like Millers or Silkolene Pro etc, even doing some trackdays in it.
If you can make it to a PH meet then I'd be happy to get you a pint and get your opinion on our oil analysis results, experienced input is always welcome!
woah! That sparked a debate!
Guys great input!
I have settled on 3 monthly intervals at the moment as the car is proably overfueled slightly due to the stock ECU and rising rate fuel pressure regulator (AEM EMS ECU and proper mapping coming soon). Plus it gets used hard and deserves looking after
My intention is to then change to 6 monthly changes.
The oil sampling is something I've consider but never found decent pricing on.
Are you still doing it?
Is it important to stick to the same oil to ensure a good comparision?
When you next doing a GB?
Guys great input!
I have settled on 3 monthly intervals at the moment as the car is proably overfueled slightly due to the stock ECU and rising rate fuel pressure regulator (AEM EMS ECU and proper mapping coming soon). Plus it gets used hard and deserves looking after
My intention is to then change to 6 monthly changes.
The oil sampling is something I've consider but never found decent pricing on.
Are you still doing it?
Is it important to stick to the same oil to ensure a good comparision?
When you next doing a GB?
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