Discussion
The normal route for MX5's is to supercharge. It is important to look at the brakes first before power with the MX5. They are notorious for excess front braking (front lock-up). Bigger or better front brakes just makes things worse, it needs improved front/rear balance i.e. sticky rear pads. Once balance is optimised you can work to enable more stopping power by wider front wheels thereby increasing the contact patch enabling the fronts to brake harder before lock-up. Stickier front tyres don't appear to provide any measurable improvement regarding the front lock-up issue.
When modifying always improve braking ability before power. Braking is about tyre adhesion with the road, not about pads and disc size.
When modifying always improve braking ability before power. Braking is about tyre adhesion with the road, not about pads and disc size.
Thanks for the reply Bob, i've got some brakes off a 1.8 model which i would put on if i was to turbo or supercharge. Its got aftermarket wheels which are slightly bigger and wider than standard. Its the lower powered 89bhp model, i've spoke to numerous specialists and they say all that is really required would be the brakes off the 1.8, as i'm only looking for around 130bhp.
Ross
Ross
The later 1.8 brakes are better but they will make the car more likely to lock up if you don't do something to keep the front wheels turning. Better front brakes will only make it worse if you can already easily lock the fronts under heavy braking; you really must improve the rear brakes to reduce the potential for front lock-up. A sudden need to emergency brake often parks MX5's in the car in front. Ask MX5Parts how many number plate plinths they sell, it's staggering, they ought to add a free set of sticky rear pads with every plinth they sell. You need to find a way to keep the front wheels turning, increasing rear braking is part of the solution. Don't increase front braking power if you can already lock them up, there's no point.
Speak to Steve Crawford at Falcon Engineering; he's solved this brake balance issue before and the solution is inexpensive, not doing it can be quite costly.
Speak to Steve Crawford at Falcon Engineering; he's solved this brake balance issue before and the solution is inexpensive, not doing it can be quite costly.
bobfather said:
Once balance is optimised you can work to enable more stopping power by wider front wheels thereby increasing the contact patch enabling the fronts to brake harder before lock-up.
Sorry Bob, bigger/ wider tyres is another urban myth. Tyres are a floatation device. You cannot increase the contact surface by changing the diameter, width or profile. You ONLY change the shape of the contact patch. ie long & thin- skinny tyres or short & wide - fat "carlos fandango"Your other comments about the '5 brakes were valid though. When I had my SC '5 I had greenstuff pads on the front & 1145's on the back. Seemed to work for me.
Goodyear f1 eagles were my tyre of choice for year round driving.
FB
Quite right Chris, more contact surface equals less surface pressure. That statement is used to discuss RWD grip for power to the road. That's why wide tyres can't grip on wet grass.
Under braking however the weight balance of the car shifts to the front increasing the downward force through the front suspension and thereby increasing contact pressure. The more deceleration the greater the contact pressure so wider fronts can decrease stopping distance. Don’t overdo it though or you'll end up with lots of under steer.
Under braking however the weight balance of the car shifts to the front increasing the downward force through the front suspension and thereby increasing contact pressure. The more deceleration the greater the contact pressure so wider fronts can decrease stopping distance. Don’t overdo it though or you'll end up with lots of under steer.
Bob,
it's a long time since I've heard someone speak such utter rubbish!
What experience of MX5's have you?
After being involved in Racing the 1.6 Mk1 MX5' for the last three years I can say quite emphatically that there is no problem with the braking system whatsoever!
An MX5 race car which runs street legal tyres (Hancook this year Toyo T1's last year) pills over 1g whilst braking. The balance is also near perfect with a good pad in both front and rear.
The suspension/chassis is also a match for a power increase with the car pulling 1.3 lat g on road spec tyres ; show me another sports car that can match that!- I personally don't think they need more power and are beautifully balanced as they are.
it's a long time since I've heard someone speak such utter rubbish!
What experience of MX5's have you?
After being involved in Racing the 1.6 Mk1 MX5' for the last three years I can say quite emphatically that there is no problem with the braking system whatsoever!
An MX5 race car which runs street legal tyres (Hancook this year Toyo T1's last year) pills over 1g whilst braking. The balance is also near perfect with a good pad in both front and rear.
The suspension/chassis is also a match for a power increase with the car pulling 1.3 lat g on road spec tyres ; show me another sports car that can match that!- I personally don't think they need more power and are beautifully balanced as they are.
Well thanks for the rude reply, actually I would say I have some experience, I have been in possession of a 1.8 Mk2 for about 5 years now. Having found that the fronts tended to lock up too easily I investigated whether this was just my car or was it in fact something others were suffering. I have Toyo T1-R all round but still the fronts are a pain. Without ABS the car under performs under braking when compared with other road cars of which I have significant experience. I talked with Falcon Engineering who set up MX5's for track use and they confirmed that the OE brake balance is poor and performance can be improved by the methods I have spoken of here.
I agree that the MX5 is a fantastic little sports car, great fun on country roads but that doesn't mean it's perfect. All cars have something that could be better. My experience and that of Falcon is that the rear brakes are under powered. The OP was discussing the addition of bigger front brakes. I felt it worth while suggesting that improving the fronts without doing the rears was possibly not sensible. Further more; increasing the power of the very thing that causes the front to lock shouldn't be done without first increasing the ability of the fronts to resist locking, i.e. adhesion.
I agree that the MX5 is a fantastic little sports car, great fun on country roads but that doesn't mean it's perfect. All cars have something that could be better. My experience and that of Falcon is that the rear brakes are under powered. The OP was discussing the addition of bigger front brakes. I felt it worth while suggesting that improving the fronts without doing the rears was possibly not sensible. Further more; increasing the power of the very thing that causes the front to lock shouldn't be done without first increasing the ability of the fronts to resist locking, i.e. adhesion.
Bob,
didn't mean it to be rude - sorry.
I've never heard of Falcon and they certainly aren't involved in the race series with MX5's.
The race cars do not use any ABS systems whatsoever and the braking on the cars is astonoshing without any balance problems whatsoever. Just fit some decent pads into the car; so many 'specialists' make money by selling this modification and that when there is nothing wrong! If they work well under 20 minute race conditions then there is no reason they shouldn't work well on the road.
Further to this the front brakes should lock well before the rear brakes anyway - it is a design requirement in a vehicle. The race cars quite often run a different rear pad so the rear brakes don't lock under heavy braking. In this scenario the rear brakes are doing virtually nothing so more powerful rear brakes would cause significant problems.
The big problem is brake feel - the standard brakes are more than capable on the car but 'feel' can be improved by pad selection.
I would definately say that braking is not a weak point of the MX5 Mk1 - infact there are no particular weak points whatsoever.
For the OP - supercharging is not the normal way to go on the early Mk1 MX5 1.6; infact I'm not sure if there is a supercharger kit for pre 1991 1.6 mx5's. They are expensive and not worth it IMO. A well driven MX5 will keep up with a Roadsport Caterham (circa 120 bhp) on track.
didn't mean it to be rude - sorry.
I've never heard of Falcon and they certainly aren't involved in the race series with MX5's.
The race cars do not use any ABS systems whatsoever and the braking on the cars is astonoshing without any balance problems whatsoever. Just fit some decent pads into the car; so many 'specialists' make money by selling this modification and that when there is nothing wrong! If they work well under 20 minute race conditions then there is no reason they shouldn't work well on the road.
Further to this the front brakes should lock well before the rear brakes anyway - it is a design requirement in a vehicle. The race cars quite often run a different rear pad so the rear brakes don't lock under heavy braking. In this scenario the rear brakes are doing virtually nothing so more powerful rear brakes would cause significant problems.
The big problem is brake feel - the standard brakes are more than capable on the car but 'feel' can be improved by pad selection.
I would definately say that braking is not a weak point of the MX5 Mk1 - infact there are no particular weak points whatsoever.
For the OP - supercharging is not the normal way to go on the early Mk1 MX5 1.6; infact I'm not sure if there is a supercharger kit for pre 1991 1.6 mx5's. They are expensive and not worth it IMO. A well driven MX5 will keep up with a Roadsport Caterham (circa 120 bhp) on track.
Edited by nikpro on Thursday 27th August 10:40
Edited by nikpro on Thursday 27th August 10:41
Edited by nikpro on Thursday 27th August 10:50
Edited by nikpro on Thursday 27th August 11:03
nikpro said:
Bob,
didn't mean it to be rude - sorry.
Consider yourself forgiven. The OP and I have known each other for many years. In fact we have been known to exchange MX5 parts in the past. My experience is limited to the 1.8 Mk2 for which I believe the supercharger route is common. didn't mean it to be rude - sorry.
Your opinion is yours and nobody can say that it is invalid. It's your experience and I have no issue with that. Likewise my opinion is valid; it comes from my experience and research. The beauty of forums like this is that the opinions of many can help people make sound choices.
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